Heaven Makes No Sense

[John Nowak]

I realize they get to hang out with God but BFD, he’s a sadistic, egomaniacal, a-hole. Why would anyone want to hang out with that guy?

Sure, but he's great at telling jokes. It's all in the delivery.

 

[ehcks]

This is the part of religion that you have a problem with? It's like the only thing they teach that isn't completely terrifying.

I disagree. Immortality, such as of the "immortal soul," is completely terrifying.

 

[AdamSK]

I believe that there is something in the afterlife that Yahweh needs His Children to do -- something that is not necessarily comprehensible to us here but will be challenging and satisfying work when we get it. I'm looking forward to it.

 

[tsig]

I believe that there is something in the afterlife that Yahweh needs His Children to do -- something that is not necessarily comprehensible to us here but will be challenging and satisfying work when we get it. I'm looking forward to it.

But you're in no hurry to get there, right?

ETA: How can a god have needs?

 

[Porpoise of Life]

I believe that there is something in the afterlife that Yahweh needs His Children to do -- something that is not necessarily comprehensible to us here but will be challenging and satisfying work when we get it. I'm looking forward to it.

We are raised as cattle so our souls may toil in the Slave Pits of Heaven after we die? That's horrible.
And the supposedly almighty creator of the universe (who still needs a workforce) can't be upfront about it? He has to threaten us with eternal torture to get us to choose Heaven?
I don't trust this Yahweh character.

 

[tsig]

We are raised as cattle so our souls may toil in the Slave Pits of Heaven after we die? That's horrible.
And the supposedly almighty creator of the universe (who still needs a workforce) can't be upfront about it? He has to threaten us with eternal torture to get us to choose Heaven?
I don't trust this Yahweh character.

Satan was a union organizer who tried to organize the Slaves of Heaven and got burned for it.

 

[arthwollipot]

Eternity is terrifying. At some point you would long for non existence.

Not at all, because you're with God, and bathed in perfect peace and love, remember? Everything is perfect, so you would not long for anything else. That's the whole point.

 

[fromdownunder]

Heaven will be a great place.

So you do not have the faintest idea as to what it would be like. Thought so.

If I go to heaven I would create a better universe or a better Adam and Eve.

There would be NO more serpents in my Garden of Eden.

Unless of course, this. Do you seriously think that if you go to Heaven you will be promoted to God? You might want to explain why you think that.

Norm

 

[Leumas]

So you do not have the faintest idea as to what it would be like. Thought so.



Unless of course, this. Do you seriously think that if you go to Heaven you will be promoted to God? You might want to explain why you think that.

Norm

G'day fromdownunder,

dejudge is a full atheist and does not believe in that stuff... he is just taking the mick like all of the other posts.

 

[GT/CS]

Do you seriously think that if you go to Heaven you will be promoted to God? You might want to explain why you think that.

Norm

Mormons believe that. All the men who are worthy (pay a crapload of money to the church) become gods. Whacko Smith wrote that Adam is the god of our world.

 

[GT/CS]

This is the part of religion that you have a problem with? It's like the only thing they teach that isn't completely terrifying.

I have problems with all of it but this is the part that was in my dream and I found interesting the next morning. The concept of how my view of Heaven would be unique to me made me wonder how I could have my own Heaven, interacting with other souls/people, and yet not interfere with their version of Heaven. Way too deep for me.

And while religions are nothing more than ways to enslave the populous at least I can understand most of them and their ridiculous stories, but Heaven, while a nice concept, is the most ridiculous. From and engineering point of view it just doesn't work, and can't work..................not that any other part of the bible can.

 

[tsig]

Not at all, because you're with God, and bathed in perfect peace and love, remember? Everything is perfect, so you would not long for anything else. That's the whole point.

This looks like a "god works in mysterious way" type of argument. Spending eternity in mindless adoration strikes me as inhuman. It must be mindless or you might start thinking this wasn't such a great deal.

It really sounds like an eternity at the peak of an acid trip.

 

[GT/CS]

This looks like a "god works in mysterious way" type of argument. Spending eternity in mindless adoration strikes me as inhuman. It must be mindless or you might start thinking this wasn't such a great deal.

It really sounds like an eternity at the peak of an acid trip.

It's probably a discussion for another thread but the believers should ask themselves if their god is really the best option for eternity. For all they know he may be the evil one and is just tricking the masses because Satan is a wuss. Their god does require burnt offerings and blood sacrifices, after all.

If I had to choose I'd take my chances with Satan.

 

[stanfr]

Stanfr, short quips aren't really enough to solve those questions. Which, I suppose, is why guys like Augustine or Aquinas wrote whole books instead of just the chapter headings.



I'm ok with that, but then you have to explain how a universe (or pocket in this one or whatever) without a time axis works. Because it seems to me like if there is no time, then there is nothing happening, so there is no fundamental difference between that an it being game over when you die.



Even skipping over how such interactions could exist at all without time, or what would be the point of any political interaction if its results don't affect some change that happens in TIME, well, how does that happen?



But conversely, even the most abstract theist I've met will say that those souls have the consciousness of actual people. So the difference is at best lexical. Whether I have a human body, or I'm a brain in a jar powering Skynet, or just a program on a supercomputer that writes these messages, I'm still "me", and I'm still just as much "people". The fact that we're just exchanging messages over the internet, no bodily interactions or even line of sight involved, instead of sitting by the samovar and sipping tea as we talk, doesn't change the fact that it's "people" interacting. We could be two brains in a jar interacting like this, and nothing would be fundamentally different for the interaction.

But even if you want to call it some disembodied consciousness or whatever instead of "people", well, brings us to the same question: how does it work? Sure, they don't sit around a tea table, but then what do they DO? You mentioned political interactions. How do THOSE work?



Yet we're told that it's your consciousness that will be there to perceive it. With all the lessons learned and reference baggage from this flesh-and-blood realm.

In fact, apparently those are important too, since otherwise we could just skip the whole flesh-and-blood realm entirely. But you first need to learn to behave here, and be judged for it.

So how is that supposed to work? Will you suddenly forget that you really liked to hang around a certain girl, or that you hated the holier-than-thou priest? Will you suddenly have common topics to discuss with someone who was a slave in Nero's time and got eaten by a lion in the arena?

I mean, if you thought it's bad to hear the "quit complaining, you kids these days have it easy, back in my day we used to walk two miles to work through the snow" speech from grandpa, imagine what St Ignatius of Antioch would have to say about your problems at work or frictions with your heathen neighbours. Think YOU had it bad at the office? The guy wrote his letters while being carried by ship to his execution by very hostile heathens, together with a bunch of wild animals that might be eventually used to execute him. How's THAT for a hostile workplace?

Because before being a soul, he was "people", and that's the kind of environment HE learned.

So what kind of common topics might you have with someone whose consciousness recorded THAT frame of reference for judging things? How would you interact meaningfully in any political sense?

And if you just magically get some completely other way of thinking beamed into your head, so all that isn't a problem any more... then, as the great philosopher Daffy Duck once said, "was this trip really necessary?" Couldn't we just skip the learning a bunch of fully useless things on Earth first?



Well, that brings us back exactly to: then how does it work? And again, if nothing actually happens, because happening would involve a time axis, then what's the difference between that and it just being game over when you die?

Thanks for the thoughtful response, Hans! I was just having fun answering the OP by pulling things out of my backside, not coming up with my own thesis. I don't believe in the idea of 'heaven'. However, since you bit, I'll return the favor. In my hypothetical concept of heaven, the laws of physics as we know them don't exist. Presumably the heaven idea is tied to the 'God' idea, and supposedly God created both the universe and the laws of physics, so he could certainly come up with a different set that operate in 'heaven', no? Certainly special relativity would not be an issue, and at the very least this heaven place would be on the fringes of a general relativistic construct, maybe you'd enter through some freaky black hole or something...anyhow, you just need to start thinking outside the box, that's all. If you insist on playing by the rules as you know them, well then of course you will be led to contradictions. How would one measure time in a place that does not even have matter--atoms and such, as we know it/them? So, your questions are meaningless in my freaky acid-inspired place called heaven. Now scuse me whilst I go eat some sushi and drink some more beer...

 

[Puppycow]

http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/what-does-the-bible-say-heaven-is-like/

The third heaven is unseen and is the residence of God, including Jesus Christ. This is where the dead martyrs and saints are today. This is the location of the throne of God and where the holy angels surrounding His throne sing day and night, Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord our God.

Read more: http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/what-does-the-bible-say-heaven-is-like/#ixzz3iTTN4M3x

Biblical Descriptions of Heaven

There is a constant chant of holy angels that are continually proclaiming Holy, Holy, Holy over the throne of God. The Mercy Seat in heaven where God sits is surrounded by magnificent angels full of glory and power that proclaim and bless the holy name of God without ceasing. Some of these are described as beasts, full of eyes, with six wings and neither rest day or night in their proclaiming the holiness of God (Rev. 4:8-11).

Read more: http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/what-does-the-bible-say-heaven-is-like/#ixzz3iTTXBIAX

They never stop singing "Holy, Holy, Holy"

If that's their "Heaven" they can keep it. This God dude, seems like his ego is really fragile. Sorta like Donald Trump except worse if such a thing is possible. Why such need for constant "praise" and "worship"? Does he need others to tell him how awesome he is all the time? If one second passes without all this constant adoration can he not take that?


Don't get me wrong, I've got nothing against God if she exists. I just think the Christian idea of God and Heaven is, if anything, kind of insulting. Again, if God exists, I'm pretty sure she is totally different from that described in the Bible.

 

[The Fool]

Not at all, because you're with God, and bathed in perfect peace and love, remember? Everything is perfect, so you would not long for anything else. That's the whole point.

so its a lot like your first party with Crystal meth?

 

[Leumas]

http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/what-does-the-bible-say-heaven-is-like/



They never stop singing "Holy, Holy, Holy"

If that's their "Heaven" they can keep it. This God dude, seems like his ego is really fragile. Sorta like Donald Trump except worse if such a thing is possible. Why such need for constant "praise" and "worship"? Does he need others to tell him how awesome he is all the time? If one second passes without all this constant adoration can he not take that?


Don't get me wrong, I've got nothing against God if she exists. I just think the Christian idea of God and Heaven is, if anything, kind of insulting. Again, if God exists, I'm pretty sure she is totally different from that described in the Bible.

Don't forget the constant jumping from one throne to the other so fast ala The Flash so as to appear like himself sitting on a bedazzled bejeweled throne while on his right hand side on an equally marvelous throne sits his son who is really himself of course... but it seems Holy Casper does not get a throne.

And it is not just singing hymnals but also eternal genuflecting in front of this 3 in one and 1 in three parts god. Have a look at this article called Eternal Heavenly Servitude highlighting more absurdities.

 

[GT/CS]

Biblical Descriptions of Heaven

There is a constant chant of holy angels that are continually proclaiming Holy, Holy, Holy over the throne of God. The Mercy Seat in heaven where God sits is surrounded by magnificent angels full of glory and power that proclaim and bless the holy name of God without ceasing. Some of these are described as beasts, full of eyes, with six wings and neither rest day or night in their proclaiming the holiness of God (Rev. 4:8-11).

If time doesn't exist in Heaven how can there be night and day???

 

[Leumas]

Biblical Descriptions of Heaven

There is a constant chant of holy angels that are continually proclaiming Holy, Holy, Holy over the throne of God. The Mercy Seat in heaven where God sits is surrounded by magnificent angels full of glory and power that proclaim and bless the holy name of God without ceasing. Some of these are described as beasts, full of eyes, with six wings and neither rest day or night in their proclaiming the holiness of God (Rev. 4:8-11).

If time doesn't exist in Heaven how can there be night and day???

Or TEMPO so as to sing hymnals.

 

[HansMustermann]

Thanks for the thoughtful response, Hans! I was just having fun answering the OP by pulling things out of my backside, not coming up with my own thesis. I don't believe in the idea of 'heaven'. However, since you bit, I'll return the favor. In my hypothetical concept of heaven, the laws of physics as we know them don't exist. Presumably the heaven idea is tied to the 'God' idea, and supposedly God created both the universe and the laws of physics, so he could certainly come up with a different set that operate in 'heaven', no? Certainly special relativity would not be an issue, and at the very least this heaven place would be on the fringes of a general relativistic construct, maybe you'd enter through some freaky black hole or something...anyhow, you just need to start thinking outside the box, that's all. If you insist on playing by the rules as you know them, well then of course you will be led to contradictions. How would one measure time in a place that does not even have matter--atoms and such, as we know it/them? So, your questions are meaningless in my freaky acid-inspired place called heaven. Now scuse me whilst I go eat some sushi and drink some more beer...

Well, I didn't imply that you actually believe it. It doesn't even matter, really. If someone wants to explain how the non-Euclidian bubble in Call Of Cthulhu works, they certainly don't have to believe that Cthulhu is real.

Just, well, if you want to explain how it works, I'm really interested in, you know, how it works.

Well, unless what you wanted to say is that Xians find some meaningless quips to say, so they can stop thinking about it. In which case we can just agree.