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China Draws Sabre

Oh, yeah that's not an invention of critics and should be mentioned everytime Empire's pre$$titutes are whining about any contenders actions.
You're sarcasm is misplaced. I understand the term fully; I would wager quite a lot that I understand it more fully than you having lived in that profession for quite a long time.

The fact remains that you used the phrase here in such a way as to erroneously imply that people in this thread had either used it or hinted at it themselves. We have not. You brought it in as a strawman.

The real sadness is that you needn't be so defensive here. The majority of comments have not been trying to excuse the US or to blame China.
 
I saw an article in the Guardian.... and once again, no one points a finger at Myanmar, where the conditions were created.

Thousands of oppressed people aren't a security threat.

Ask Robert Mugabe.

I think you'll find plenty of people are pointing the finger, but what do you propose to do about it? Shall we set some drones on the government buildings in Naypyidaw?

Maybe they could enlist the Falun Dafa for help?
 
Would you change any of your rhetoric if you discovered China had a legitimate claim to the islands?

No, because I know what their claim is.

So what is it about the original claim that you find does not on some level validate China's claim

I'm sure it validates in China's eyes, but there are multiple other claimants with equally- or more-valid claims.

Which "original" claim do you refer to? China has been on and off the area for centuries.

I'd rather see international maritime law adhered to, and some of the claimed area is within the 200-mile exclusion zone of other nations.

The map in this BBC article is pretty clear to me.
A copy of the source map for the Chinese claims(slightly unclear is available on wiki)

So yes, some of it it looks awfully close to the Philippines, to chose one example.
 
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China bears many outright alarming similarities to two countries - the first German Empire and post-Meji era Japan. Their shenanigans on these islands are just another example of that.

I just hope their demographics and ridiculous credit bubble (and more) hit them before they go down the path those two countries did.

McHrozni
 
China bears many outright alarming similarities to two countries - the first German Empire and post-Meji era Japan. Their shenanigans on these islands are just another example of that.

I just hope their demographics and ridiculous credit bubble (and more) hit them before they go down the path those two countries did.

McHrozni

It's really not that different to any imperial power, including the US. The hard realpolitik is that China is an emerging power and the West needs to either accommodate that power or push back against it. I know which route I would prefer to see.
 
Edited by zooterkin: 
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Moderated material and response removed.


In actual point of fact, I am very concerned about this, and certainly wouldn't even attempt to argue that it's "all ok". But the reasons for that are different than the more superficial slant given by TA.

I don't think China's doing this so much to assert aggression internationally...and if push really came to shove, they'd back off. But the plain fact is, they know that push won't come to shove. Hell, Putin is actively invading sovereign states, and the West is just sitting around moralizing and condemning him, without taking any real action to stop him. And China at present has far greater strategic importance than Russia does...the West simply does not want to get into a direct confrontation with China right now.

And China knows that.

However, as FMW pointed out, this is being done much more for local consumption, than to threaten the U.S., or other countries. China's heading for a major crisis, and everybody knows it. Banks (all state-owned) are crippled by massive bad loans. Real estate is being sold at ludicrous prices, creating a bubble that is in all likelihood going to burst fairly soon. With the internet, Chinese are becoming far more informed about what is happening both inside and outside of China, and more vocal in expressing disagreement and discontent with their government.

So the Chinese government is doing what it always does whenever it starts to see control slipping away, when its citizens start criticizing it. It doesn't try to defend itself. It just creates an outside enemy, demonizes them, preaches unquestioning nationalism, and then sits back comfortably as it successfully redirects all the anger and frustration of its citizens at some external target.

Problem is, it is backfiring. What isn't reported in much media at all is that the Chinese reaction to this posturing has been largely negative. While most Chinese quite adamantly support China's claim to this territory, they do not like threats of violence, war, etc. In the past, it's always been China's assertion that they are the victims, that it is aggression by others that is the threat...but now, it is the Chinese government actively threatening aggression.

So far from the desired goal of redirecting Chinese anger and frustration, it's actually as yet another item for Chinese to complain about (although all such efforts to do so are censored and denounced as unpatriotic).

There are very serious issues here. China's heading for a crisis, and instead of taking practical measures to prepare for it, the government is burying their head in the sand, and using tactics that no longer work to try to simply re-direct criticism and anger elsewhere. Essentially hoping that if nobody talks about the problem, then it won't happen.

The greatest threat isn't Chinese aggression due to a desire to expand their territory. The greatest threat is that, if an internal collapse becomes inevitable, the government may choose to start a war to avoid it. Wars jump-start economies, they redirect anger, they feed patriotism, and they provide a convenient excuse (other than government incompetence) for whatever internal problems they may have.

And in the final analysis, if China did officially take control and establish a permanent military base there, I doubt that the U.S. or other Western countries would do anything more about it than they have with Putin (and quite possibly less). A war with China would be extremely costly; it would be undesired by most ASEAN members; and given how dependent the U.S. economy is on China right now, it would also mean a massive blow to the American economy.
 
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Great post Wolfman! We can always count on you to provide good information about China that is not easily available elsewhere.

But with the Internet I thought the Chinese Government controlled that? Or is there a lot of leakage?
 
Great post Wolfman! We can always count on you to provide good information about China that is not easily available elsewhere.

But with the Internet I thought the Chinese Government controlled that? Or is there a lot of leakage?
Well, it is true that the Chinese government tries to control it. But they are woefully inadequate. Pretty much the only effect that the Great Firewall has had is to teach Chinese to be more technologically savvy. For example, in North America, a great many people would have little or no idea what a VPN is; but in China, even primary school kids know VPN...and many of them use one.

Add to that the fact that a great many Chinese now travel internationally, giving them not only unrestricted access to information, but personal experience of the rest of the world; and that today there are tons of foreigners living/working in China, also sharing information and perspectives.

The long and short of it is that, while it may be more difficult for Chinese to get information than it is for us, it's really only marginally more difficult. And, such is the contrary nature of humans, the very fact that the government tries to keep it from them only makes them want it more.

The whole "Look at those evil enemies, we need to oppose them!" schtick still works to some degree with the peasants; but China's middle and upper classes -- most of whom are well educated, and many of whom have traveled internationally -- are far less likely to fall for it (and they're the ones with the real power). And Chinese love the whole "we are victims of imperialism and aggression by others" thing...but no so much the "We're going to do whatever we want, and attack anyone who opposes us" thing.
 
As usual, TA cannot resist personal attacks, based on falsehoods.

If what I said was a personal attack, I do hope you reported it, because no matter how I read it I can't see any personal attack there so I wouldn't mind another opinion on it.

In actual point of fact, I am very concerned about this, and certainly wouldn't even attempt to argue that it's "all ok".

In that case, I'm all ears & eyes. I have never doubted you know more about the background than me.

I don't think China's doing this so much to assert aggression internationally...and if push really came to shove, they'd back off. But the plain fact is, they know that push won't come to shove. Hell, Putin is actively invading sovereign states, and the West is just sitting around moralizing and condemning him, without taking any real action to stop him. And China at present has far greater strategic importance than Russia does...the West simply does not want to get into a direct confrontation with China right now.

And China knows that.

On the same page so far...

The greatest threat isn't Chinese aggression due to a desire to expand their territory. The greatest threat is that, if an internal collapse becomes inevitable, the government may choose to start a war to avoid it. Wars jump-start economies, they redirect anger, they feed patriotism, and they provide a convenient excuse (other than government incompetence) for whatever internal problems they may have.

No problem there either, although I don't entirely agree on the banking/bubble scenario, but that would e a whole new thread. Feel free to go there if you want to go deeper into it.

And in the final analysis, if China did officially take control and establish a permanent military base there, I doubt that the U.S. or other Western countries would do anything more about it than they have with Putin (and quite possibly less).

Which makes my bet with FMW look pretty good, because I don't think USA will get involved. They have enough on their plate already.
 
If what I said was a personal attack, I do hope you reported it, because no matter how I read it I can't see any personal attack there so I wouldn't mind another opinion on it.
An excellent suggestion...and oh, take a look:
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Edited by jsfisher: 
Off-topic / call-out text removed for compliance with the Membership Agreement.
 
Fact is the Chinese Government cannot keep stonewalling the pressure for change and more democratic system forever,and I am afriad that foreign adventures might look like an attractive way of distracting attention. I think it will fail badly, but it seems to be a card that authrotarian govenrments play when in trouble. I give you Putin as an example.
But if the Chinese Government tries it, it might well backfire,and the Mandate of Heaven will be withdrawn....
 
A pointless non-sequitur, using a parody article to score imaginary points. Plain fact is, even the Chinese gov't itself has stated on numerous occasions that many of its policies -- especially its military policies -- are in direct response to perceived American challenges and threats. If the Chinese gov't itself is saying that "Yes, it's about the U.S.", and you are using some stupid parody article to claim it's not...well...I'll leave you to guess which side I'm gonna' take more seriously.

Fact is the Chinese Government cannot keep stonewalling the pressure for change and more democratic system forever,and I am afriad that foreign adventures might look like an attractive way of distracting attention. I think it will fail badly, but it seems to be a card that authrotarian govenrments play when in trouble. I give you Putin as an example.
But if the Chinese Government tries it, it might well backfire,and the Mandate of Heaven will be withdrawn....
I'm sorry, but this is one of the most oft-repeated fallacies about China that I see. From Tiananmen Square being a "pro-democracy movement", through to today's struggles in China being all about bringing democracy...I'm sorry, but no.

There are some people -- primarily intellectuals and academics -- actively pushing for democracy. But the average Chinese? No. What the average Chinese wants is stability and economic growth. Give them the promise of a future where they have more money, and more opportunity; combine that with demonstrated results; and the whole issue of "democracy" becomes a rather distant issue, something that "we can take care of at some point in the future."

Things aren't going to fall apart in China because people aren't getting enough democracy. They're going to fall apart because the economy is on the verge of collapsing. A poorly regulated stock market with unsophisticated speculators who drive prices far beyond what they're worth is resulting in one of the most volatile stock markets in the world...and one that, once some sort of financial scare hits, will collapse like an overextended Jenga tower. A real estate market that is similarly bloated and over-valued, much of it made possible by loans that it turns out they often cannot pay back. And a banking system riven by corruption and massive bad loans, that has avoided collapse thus far only through massive government intervention.

All it takes is for one of those three pegs to break, and the other two will quickly follow. The Chinese gov't has an advantage over Western countries in that they can take more rapid and definitive action to close down markets and try to prevent complete collapse, but that ultimately will only be a stop-gap that might slow the process, but not prevent it.

I talk with Chinese every day about these issues. And it is so rare for the question of "democracy" to arise in such conversation that I can relatively easily dismiss it as a mostly irrelevant issue. Chinese aren't going to rebel over democracy. They're not going to protest over it. They're not going to condemn their government for failing to give it to them.

But take away the growth they've enjoyed for the past 20 years? Take away their savings? Let them face the specter of the loss of everything they've worked so hard for these past two decades? That would bring about calls for a change of leadership, and/or government. That would cause protests, and rioting.

And it is that which the gov't seeks to avoid by trying to cast everyone's attention elsewhere.
 

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