Continuation Part 15: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Methos]

Here is the one with the palm print to pillow print comparison

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-co...fic-police-report-Rudy-Guede-fingerprints.pdf

It's the same file I linked to in my post

 

[acbytesla]

welcome



Ah he is an Albanian drug dealer maybe not always the best worker. Since nobody was caught that night, how did he do a bad job?



There you go again. First of all profiling has been widely debunked AFAIK. This is a little similar to Giobbi and his profiling of the kids. Rudi isn't a serial killer or are you adding that to the list? In the law office some clothes were thrown over the glass and maybe they ate something.

The logical leap here is Olympian. Maybe the same guy that broke into the lawyers' office and the Diaz (you still me proof that anything happened there much less than it was Rudi) was someone else



It seems Rudi wasn't a loner at all. He was always hanging with people. The boys, the Spanish kids, his "friend" that Skyped him and the other guys that told tales.

Your descriptions of burglars is a little like showing pictures of the victim. I'm sure there are very nasty people but that doesn't Rudi was one.

So in sum, Rudi was social not a loner, he slept over at the nursery when on trek, he was at the cottage for only a few minutes before Mez showed and there is zero on the Diaz case.

I also don't buy the fence idea. Rudy doesn't have a phone, a vehicle or even Internet sccess. Who is going to buy stuff from a guy you can't even contact?

[/QUOTE]

Again, thanks for the reply. I don't see this as that big a leap. But they are all leaps to one degree or another. It definitely fits the nursery, the law office and the cottsge, You can't seriously believe that Rudy didn't commit the burglary at the law office?

Maybe I didn't make myself clear about Rudy. I don't think Rudy was a loner in his personal life. I meant that he broke into these places alone. BTW, many serial killers would not be described as loners. For example, the BTK killer Dennis Rader was a deacon at his church and a Scout leader. He use to break into homes and kill the residents. There are many stories about serial killers that were in fact very social.

Any way you look at it, Rudy fits the profile. He raped and murdered the victim of his burglary. He took his time at the cottage, the law office and the nursery. Does that make him a serial killer? No. But it makes him dangerous.

 

[RoseMontague]

It's the same file I linked to in my post

LOL. Yes it is, sorry.

 

[Methos]

LOL. Yes it is, sorry.

Only shows that both sides are working on the same sources

 

[Vixen]

Did the defense request disclosure on the suspect stain?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03vgr6x

OK, guys, I've listened to this again, and, soz, I did get the Italian guy Casteliggo (_sp??) mixed up with Dr Gill. (24"29') re the suspect stain.

The scientific police say it would be hard to put a time on the stain (did it happen on the murder night?), whereas Dr Gill says it ought to have been tested, as the defense asked.

However, Dr Gill was clearly unaware Avvocato Bongiornio did not want it tested for the fact finding hearing of the First Instance, as it might have been identified as Raf's. Raf in the broadcast claims "it was not my DNA on the bra clasp, they found a way to match it to frame me, in some crazy theory."

 

[davefoc]

Oh and Guede's natural father, Roger, was a bricklayer, stonemason and minor property developer. Not an IT developer. But apart from that.........

That doesn't mean he couldn't have known an IT developer, who gave him some of his electronic equipment, which Roger Guede gave to his son, Rudy.

If, as Numbers asserts, Rudy was caught with a small hammer, of the type seen in public transport, to break glass "in case of fire", then it would appear Rudy knew of the need to break glass noiselessly, not with a massive crashing boulder.

So not a "wake up the entire neighbourhood" rookie burglar, either.

Good point. So Guede would have used his little hammer to break the window instead of a rock which means Guede didn't break the window, which means that the burglary was staged, which means that somebody inside the unit staged the pseudo break-in, which means that it was Knox and Sollecito that staged the pseudo break-in, which means that they participated in the murder of Kercher. There is still the issue of exactly how they participated in the murder. I'm still not quite clear on the details of that. It might require more evidence to know about that than the fact that Guede was reported to have carried a hammer designed to break glass.

It's like saying a carpenter only needs one saw and no hammer.

The little hammer which Prato describes as being found wouldn't have done the job needed at the cottage.

If it's the kind of hammer I'm thinking about it would have easily broken almost all glass windows. It is a bit of a stretch here, but it could be that Guede didn't routinely carry it and he might have used a rock instead which has the advantage of making more noise to test to see if there was anybody out and about before he entered the unit.

As an aside, I enjoyed the little blurb you (Grinder) posted about the life of Guede.

 

[acbytesla]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03vgr6x

OK, guys, I've listened to this again, and, soz, I did get the Italian guy Casteliggo (_sp??) mixed up with Dr Gill. (24"29') re the suspect stain.

The scientific police say it would be hard to put a time on the stain (did it happen on the murder night?), whereas Dr Gill says it ought to have been tested, as the defense asked.

However, Dr Gill was clearly unaware Avvocato Bongiornio did not want it tested for the fact finding hearing of the First Instance, as it might have been identified as Raf's. Raf in the broadcast claims "it was not my DNA on the bra clasp, they found a way to match it to frame me, in some crazy theory."

Not really Vixen. You are mistakenly viewing Dr Gill as an advocate in this case. He's not. He's a scientist and the father of using DNA to solve crimes. He's saying that a semen stain in a sex crime should be tested. He doesn't care that a defendant doesn't want a test done.

Dr. Gill would probably be saying that they were guilty if the semen stain was Raffaele's.

 

[anglolawyer]

'Going equipped to steal' is an offence. So carrying your window-breaking hammer everywhere, especially while being young, male and black, is probably not a great idea. Maybe he didn't always have it with him.

 

[Bill Williams]

However, Dr Gill was clearly unaware Avvocato Bongiornio did not want it tested for the fact finding hearing of the First Instance, as it might have been identified as Raf's. Raf in the broadcast claims "it was not my DNA on the bra clasp, they found a way to match it to frame me, in some crazy theory."

What do you make of that she wanted it tested by the Florence court?

 

[davefoc]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03vgr6x

OK, guys, I've listened to this again, and, soz, I did get the Italian guy Casteliggo (_sp??) mixed up with Dr Gill. (24"29') re the suspect stain.

The scientific police say it would be hard to put a time on the stain (did it happen on the murder night?), whereas Dr Gill says it ought to have been tested, as the defense asked.

Thank you for acknowledging this.

However, Dr Gill was clearly unaware Avvocato Bongiornio did not want it tested for the fact finding hearing of the First Instance, as it might have been identified as Raf's. Raf in the broadcast claims "it was not my DNA on the bra clasp, they found a way to match it to frame me, in some crazy theory."

Sollecito would have been damned scared of the possibility that the police would produce fraudulent test results from the stain. Raf had reason to believe that both the knife and bra clasp results were bogus (he was innocent) so reasonably enough he might have been fearful of what the lab technicians would cook up about the semen stain.

Testing the stain, of course, shouldn't have worried the prosecution since, Sollecito's DNA on the stain would be overwhelming evidence of guilt and Sollecito would have been forced to confess or accept the results of a trial where the evidence of his guilt was overwhelming. Presumably he might have tried what Guede did and gone for a fast track trial which seems to result in some incredibly small penalties for rape and murder.

As an aside, the translation of what that prosecutor had to say about the stain was probably the silliest nonsense put forth out of this whole case. It amazes me that your (Vixen's) unshakeable faith in the righteousness of the prosecutors wasn't tested a bit more by this nonsense.

In defense of the prosecutor, Giancarol Costagliola, it is probable that he was lying. But exactly what the lie was isn't knowable to the public. Some of the possibilities I see:
1. They assumed the stain was from Guede and didn't test it because the reality of the crime was something that they were trying to hide as they pursued this horrible persecution of AK/RS.
2. They had tested the stain, hid the results and the stain was from Guede and didn't release the results for the reasons stated in item 1.
3. They had tested the stain and hid the results because it was from the boyfriend whose privacy they seemed to be protecting during the trial.
4. They had tested the stain and found that it was from an unidentified individual. They didn't reveal the results either because they were trying to hide information that might have provided evidence of casual sexual encounters by Kercher or they didn't reveal the results because they were protecting somebody for unknown reasons that is currently publicly unknown to have been involved in the murder.

But whatever the actual reason that the stain wasn't tested or the results were hidden of the testing, it approaches certainty that the reason isn't what Costagliola said in his silly response to the question.

 

[lonepinealex]

Furthermore, it appears that Vixen didn't even follow the debate around benefits for immigrants or EU migrants that took place during the recent UK General Election. That debate in itself would have put paid to her ridiculous (and totally unsupported) claims about universal safety net benefits. Oh dear. It's really getting embarrassing now.

P'raps she votes UKIP and thinks every scrounging foreign is living the life of Reilly at taxpayers' expense, all over the damned EU.

 

[davefoc]

'Going equipped to steal' is an offence. So carrying your window-breaking hammer everywhere, especially while being young, male and black, is probably not a great idea. Maybe he didn't always have it with him.

Hmm, this does test my faith a bit in the theory that AK/RS were guilty because Guede carried a hammer designed to break glass. I guess it's possible that Guede didn't always carry the hammer.

 

[Grinder]

Again, thanks for the reply. I don't see this as that big a leap. But they are all leaps to one degree or another. It definitely fits the nursery, the law office and the cottsge, You can't seriously believe that Rudy didn't commit the burglary at the law office?[/quote]

I seriously think it is possible, and not in the anything is possible vein, that he fenced the goods. People specialize. Not to cross Vixen but the theft industry does have different jobs and they do specialize and rarely if ever are they charged with conspiracy to steal (sorry Vix).

I tend to believe the Spanish kids because their saying he had a lot of computers seems like something one would notice and in and of itself isn't a big deal.

I think he was more cut out to be a fence as he already was doing sales and was a gregarious guy with contacts in Milan.

He could have been an accomplice on the lawyer job learning the trade. He might have been with the same dude at the cottage.

Remember Bill tells us that the absence of evidence isn't proof of absence so maybe he had an accomplice.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear about Rudy. I don't think Rudy was a loner in his personal life. I meant that he broke into these places alone. BTW, many serial killers would not be described as loners. For example, the BTK killer Dennis Rader was a deacon at his church and a Scout leader. He use to break into homes and kill the residents. There are many stories about serial killers that were in fact very social.

You listed out characteristics of sexual burglars and loner was one. Rudi doesn't fit.

Any way you look at it, Rudy fits the profile. He raped and murdered the victim of his burglary. He took his time at the cottage, the law office and the nursery. Does that make him a serial killer? No. But it makes him dangerous.

There you go again. He slept in the nursery by all accounts. He didn't take much time at the cottage. He took some time at the lawyers but it was the weekend.

The history a best showed weekend entries into businesses far different than breaking into a home where people could be or show up soon.

What in the hell was Koko doing there? Eating olives. Right.

 

[carbonjam72]

Here is the Nencini section:

The second defense hypothesis, advanced this time by the defense of Raffaele Sollecito, relates to the fact that Rudy Hermann Guede could have entered the apartment not only because he was helped by someone having keys to the apartment but also because Meredith Kercher herself, who also knew him, could have opened the front door from the inside. The defense’s notion, thought-provoking and not without a theoretical plausibility, has no logical foundation in the evidence of this case.
Setting aside the fact that the young woman, when she left her English girlfriends after having spent an afternoon and evening with them, clearly stated that she was going home because she was tired, without mentioning any appointment with Rudy Hermann Guede, it was ascertained as fact that simulations and behaviors were carried out after the murder that were intended to convince the investigators that the perpetrator of the crime broke in from the outside through the window of Filomena Romanelli’s room, and this fact would not make sense in the scenario where Rudy Hermann Guede entered the house through the front door opened to him by the victim.
What need could he possibly have had, Rudy Hermann Guede, a notable nobody, to simulate a burglary? It is easy to see how that would have only attracted suspicion onto him, because it would have certainly required only a little time for the police to ascertain that robbing homes was an activity that Rudy Hermann Guede did not at all disdain doing.
Ultimately, a preliminary, objective, rational evaluation of the circumstantial evidence collected up to now, read in necessary logical correlation, leads one to hold that Amanda Marie Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are the only two people who have, in themselves, all of the qualifications needed to perform the role of Rudy Hermann Guede’s accomplices in the murder of Meredith Kercher.


I think this has been misinterpreted. I Nencini is saying IF one assumes the defense argument is correct then the police would have been able to determine his MO and matched it.

It seems clear to me that Nencini IS NOT saying that the police should have recognized his MO.

This undoes the police informant being protected meme unless there is real evidence of such behavior.

I don't think this is the piece Cheli was referring to. Or, Cheli's interpretation is way off base, which is frankly hard to believe.

So I'll hold off commenting further until I've had a closer look.

 

[Grinder]

I don't think this is the piece Cheli was referring to. Or, Cheli's interpretation is way off base, which is frankly hard to believe.

So I'll hold off commenting further until I've had a closer look.

I found this by going to Cheli's and finding his take and going the page number he referenced. Page 91 I think it was.

I found the quote you must be think of but that too is under a title referencing the defense position.

Nencini is defeating the defense by saying since you claim he was well known for this MO he would never leave a staged scene that looked like his well known one. At least that's how I take it.

Only those who had a connection with the cottage murder scene, and so could have easily been connected to the murder of Meredith Kercher, had an objective interest in erasing their traces from the scene of the crime, and also in simulating a burglary. And in fact, once it is ascertained that the work carried out inside Filomena Romanelli’s bedroom was a faked act, intended to attribute the entry to an unknown and fictional burglar, this act, had it been carried out by Rudy Hermann Guede, who had already committed burglaries using the same technique, would have had no other effect than that of attracting the investigators’ attention to himself.​

What's crazy about this is that he doesn't explain how the kids matched Rudi's MO and why if he believes the part about attracting wouldn't have happened as it was.

I have to think he isn't saying Rudi's MO was known but that if it were the cops would have known immediately.

 

[js202]

If it's the kind of hammer I'm thinking about it would have easily broken almost all glass windows. It is a bit of a stretch here, but it could be that Guede didn't routinely carry it and he might have used a rock instead which has the advantage of making more noise to test to see if there was anybody out and about before he entered the unit.

I am envisioning more of a jeweler's hammer, which I have seen in burglar's kits as I've studied the topic. But, regardless, to use any hammer whatsoever for either the attorney's office or the Kercher/Knox cottage would have been completely impractical, as it would have required Guede to have leapt up and hung by the windowsill with one hand while chipping into the glass with the other. In both cases, a rock was a much more practical solution, both for the purposes of the noise test, the physics of breaking the old & thick glass at the cottage, and to minimize the gymnastics involved to gain entry.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

multiple problems with the luminol foot tracks

Chris I always thought the key issue with the Luminol prints is that they don't match anybody's foot. If they were in fact in Meredith's blood they would only verify that a smallish person was involved in the murder.

I no longer remember precisely but IIRC the prints were mostly or only one foot and that they didn't have a walking pattern to them that would fit with the murder. This in part proved the clean up as the only way to make the prints work as evidence. I also thought the prints could have come from Amanda's shuffle that she described before the Luminol and perhaps the diluted blood from the mat could have been the culprit.

As has been discussed many a time the prosecution needed to prove they were from that night and that they matched Amanda. They did neither. Had they proven the elements described then that would have been legit evidence.

Grinder,

I am broadly in agreement with what you wrote. The tracks were all right feet and did not form a trail. They cannot reliably be attributed to anyone: ILE could turn around tomorrow and say that they are Guede's, and it would not be any more believable. They might have been made in blood, but I would argue that they were not shown to be made in blood.

 

[carbonjam72]

I found this by going to Cheli's and finding his take and going the page number he referenced. Page 91 I think it was.

I found the quote you must be think of but that too is under a title referencing the defense position.

Nencini is defeating the defense by saying since you claim he was well known for this MO he would never leave a staged scene that looked like his well known one. At least that's how I take it.

Only those who had a connection with the cottage murder scene, and so could have easily been connected to the murder of Meredith Kercher, had an objective interest in erasing their traces from the scene of the crime, and also in simulating a burglary. And in fact, once it is ascertained that the work carried out inside Filomena Romanelli’s bedroom was a faked act, intended to attribute the entry to an unknown and fictional burglar, this act, had it been carried out by Rudy Hermann Guede, who had already committed burglaries using the same technique, would have had no other effect than that of attracting the investigators’ attention to himself.​

What's crazy about this is that he doesn't explain how the kids matched Rudi's MO and why if he believes the part about attracting wouldn't have happened as it was.

I have to think he isn't saying Rudi's MO was known but that if it were the cops would have known immediately.

This is closer to what I recall. It seems to my eye that Nencini is saying that Rudy committed acts with a similar MO, and IIRC, that's Cheli's interpretation as well.

I agree with your surmising that if the police would have recognized Rudy's MO had Rudy staged the burglary, it follows then, as per Nencini's view, that the police MUST therefore have recognized Rudy's MO, hence recognized that Rudy was responsible for the break-in. Or alternatively, that someone tried to make it appear that Rudy committed the break-in, without any indication of how they would know of Rudy's signature style.

Which brings us back to why the police would attempt to deflect attention away from Rudy Guede, on Day 1.

Sounds like we're in agreement, unless I'm missing your argument.

 

[RoseMontague]

What do you make of that she wanted it tested by the Florence court?

They did make the request to Massei, the day before the verdict (not after as indicated by one poster). Raffaelle's concerns about Steffi fudging results are very understandable. Still the request was made, objected to by the prosecution and the civil parties and denied by the courts.

 

[Grinder]

This is closer to what I recall. It seems to my eye that Nencini is saying that Rudy committed acts with a similar MO, and IIRC, that's Cheli's interpretation as well.

I agree with your surmising that if the police would have recognized Rudy's MO had Rudy staged the burglary, it follows then, as per Nencini's view, that the police MUST therefore have recognized Rudy's MO, hence recognized that Rudy was responsible for the break-in. Or alternatively, that someone tried to make it appear that Rudy committed the break-in, without any indication of how they would know of Rudy's signature style.

Which brings us back to why the police would attempt to deflect attention away from Rudy Guede, on Day 1.

Sounds like we're in agreement, unless I'm missing your argument.

Well I think that he is writing in the defense voice. If you all think Rudi was on this big crime wave then the police would have immediately recognized it.

I really doubt that he was saying that the police recognized Rudi's MO right away.

Go and read the whole subsection which starts with the defense's assumptions. We could be losing something in translation.