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Iraq War a Mistake

The problem with that is that there were plenty of people beforehand, myself included, who thought the justification was pure BS and made absolutely no sense in the greater context of what was happening at the time.

It's hard to make the argument that no one could predict the outcome, when people could and actually did, including Cheney in a previous administration.
Exactly! That's why it makes my skin crawl that even to this day the news media keeps buying the 'bad intel' party line. How do they not know better after all that has been uncovered? Why don't they jump down the throats of all those 2016 Pubbie candidates claiming the whole world believed the bad intel, no one knew any better?
 
Exactly! That's why it makes my skin crawl that even to this day the news media keeps buying the 'bad intel' party line. How do they not know better after all that has been uncovered? Why don't they jump down the throats of all those 2016 Pubbie candidates claiming the whole world believed the bad intel, no one knew any better?

Pubbie candidates? Oh for ***** sake....

Hillary knew exactly what she was doing.
 
Exactly! That's why it makes my skin crawl that even to this day the news media keeps buying the 'bad intel' party line. How do they not know better after all that has been uncovered? Why don't they jump down the throats of all those 2016 Pubbie candidates claiming the whole world believed the bad intel, no one knew any better?
Judith Miller was fired because she was a conduit for Cheney's lies. NOT because of bad intel.
 
And now do you ask yourself why you didn't pay more attention to the big giant red flags with that intel?

I didn't look as closely at the intelligence as others, but Saddam did gas the Kurds (many years earlier admittedly). The possibility that he had WMD and his reprehensible behaviour at the time led me to believe some action was justified.

Yes, the war was a disasterous mistake. As I said in my previous post, many wars are. I'm not certain that the world learns from these mistakes because they continue to occur.
 
Pubbie candidates? Oh for ***** sake....

Hillary knew exactly what she was doing.
It was kinda humorous when you first tried to shift all of the blame on Hillary but now it's just pathetic.

  • Hillary didn't propose the war.
  • Hilary didn't introduce legislation to authorize the war.
  • Hillary didn't campaign for a war.
  • Hillary didn't lie to promote the war.
  • Hillary didn't feed lies to Judith Miller to justify the war.
  • Hillary didn't use lies fed to Judith Miller to demonstrate the lies.
Of all of the reasons why I don't like Hillary, the Iraq war is the least of my concerns.
 
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It was kinda humorous when you first tried to shift all of the blame on Hillary but now it's just pathetic.

  • Hillary didn't propose the war.
  • Hilary didn't introduce legislation to authorize the war.
  • Hillary didn't campaign for a war.
  • Hillary didn't lie to promote the war.
  • Hillary didn't feed lies to Judith Miller to justify the war.
  • Hillary didn't use lies fed to Judith Miller to demonstrate the lies.
Of all of the reasons why I don't like Hillary, the Iraq war is the least of my concerns.

Well, I am certainly not going to vote for anyone who fed lies to Judith miller!

Hillary voted for it, and bush relied on her husband's intelligence and signed the regime change act.

My rule is I don't vote for anyone who voted for the Iraq war. Will you join me on that?
 
The problem with that is that there were plenty of people beforehand, myself included, who thought the justification was pure BS and made absolutely no sense in the greater context of what was happening at the time.

It's hard to make the argument that no one could predict the outcome, when people could and actually did, including Cheney in a previous administration.
It's a damn shame the members of Congress in 2003 were not as omniscient as several of the posters here on ISF claim to have been. Just in case anyone forgot, here's a little montage of several prominent Democrats supporting the Iraq war pre-invasion:

A whole lot of big names in that video including Clinton, Edwards, Rockefeller, Biden, Bayh just to name a few.
 
Bush and Cheney probably can't get enough giggles over how the people they duped and lied to are now being blamed by willful idiots for being duped and lied to.
 
It's odd now to look back. I had a very dim view of Plame, Wilson, Richard Clarke and others. I bought the yellow cake story hook line and sinker.

And now you find Plame, Wilson and Clarke credible?
:rolleyes:
 
And now you find Plame, Wilson and Clarke credible?
:rolleyes:
:rolleyes:

Are you kidding me? Hell yea I find them credible. Of course I find them credible. My opinion back then was one of ideology. My opinion today is based on the fact that their stories align with reality. Not that yellow cake BS or the Condi Rice lies, Cheney lies, Colin Powell lies (I don't know if it was willful).
 
Well, I am certainly not going to vote for anyone who fed lies to Judith miller!

Hillary voted for it, and bush relied on her husband's intelligence and signed the regime change act.

My rule is I don't vote for anyone who voted for the Iraq war. Will you join me on that?

I'm no Hillary fan. I certainly don't want to vote for her but I'm not a single issue voter. That's absurd. I know of no republican currently running that I could justify voting for.

Bush exploited Clinton's intelligence to justify an unjust war. I wish Hillary had seen through his lies. If I'm going to fault Hillary in this affair it's that she believed all of the BS coming out of the Administration. Lie after lie after lie.

Now, do I think voting for the Iraq war was evil? Hell no. I supported it. I defended it on this very forum. People make mistakes. How anyone could use this incident to justify voting for a Republican, the party that took a surplus and turned it into a giant deficit, stared a war that will cost a couple of trillion, killed thousands of Americans and Iraqis and doesn't have the honesty to admit that Bush made a mistake is beyond me.

Join me will you and not vote for any Republican who doesn't have the balls to stand up and say yeah, Bush lied to the American people and this neocon BS needs to end.

Fair enough?
 
My rule is I don't vote for anyone who voted for the Iraq war. Will you join me on that?
BTW: This attitude of single issue politics is probably more instrumental in the atrocities carried out in America than anything else. I can't think of anything more ignorant or fatuous than to find an issue and base your decision on that single issue. Elementary school children have that kind of decision making process.
 
Well, I am certainly not going to vote for anyone who fed lies to Judith miller!

Hillary voted for it, and bush relied on her husband's intelligence and signed the regime change act.

My rule is I don't vote for anyone who voted for the Iraq war. Will you join me on that?

Well, then, since both Republicans and Democrats are responsible, I presume you will annul your vote ?
 
Pffft. Everybody says that.
That's fair. I cannot falsify why I think what I think.

That said, when I was in favor of the invasion I had a lot of cognitive dissonance. Like my belief in god my allegiance to the GOP was one of faith and indoctrination (parents staunchly conservative). I employed a lot of cognitive traps to sooth my dissonance.

My journey out of religion gave me an object lesson for how to assess claims and ideas. If it causes me cognitive dissonance then I try to find out why.

I'm not a Democrat. There is much about Democrats and liberals I despise. I seriously dislike Hillary and her husband. I hate that anti-GMO BS. I have a strong dislike of sex-negative feminists and their fascist like behavior. I seriously despise the dishonest tactics of many SJW's.

When I changed politically I was forced to re-examine my views about things like 9/11. This time, instead of avoiding uncomfortable truths I sought them out. I studied the claims.

I have no cognitive dissonance when it comes to my views of Plame, Wilson and Clarke. I could still be wrong. Lacking cognitive dissonance is only proof of a lack of mental conflict. However, what I'm not is lazy when it comes to facts that tend to challenge my beliefs.
 
I didn't look as closely at the intelligence as others, but Saddam did gas the Kurds (many years earlier admittedly). The possibility that he had WMD and his reprehensible behaviour at the time led me to believe some action was justified.

Yes, the war was a disasterous mistake. As I said in my previous post, many wars are. I'm not certain that the world learns from these mistakes because they continue to occur.

That's the thing though, even if Iraq still had WMD's (including U.S. and other Western/NATO countries supplied WMD), who cares? Many countries have some kind of WMD program. I don't see us hounding ourselves or the Israelis, the British, the French about WMD's. Obviously, those being routinely hounded for it are not on our team, they are Them and we are Us.

If it is a geopolitical argument, that Iraq's WMD's posed an existential threat to the U.S. homeland, it would be preferable to have argued that Iraq had the technical capability to launch and strike the homeland. That was not the case that was fervently pitched. It was the more vague and hypothetical case that was argued -- Saddam could have WMD's smuggled into the U.S.

If Iraq could do it, what's stopping the Russians, the Chinese and the North Koreans from doing the very same thing? The answer from the Iraq narrative is 1) nothing, which is followed by 2) they need to be invaded too! That is not a logical geopolitical move considering that the consequences of a full frontal against any of those three nations constitutes death at an unprecedented scale in the history of human warfare.

There is, however, a logical explanation to the decision to invade Iraq: the ideologues in power at the time of the invasion. Under the leadership of these ideologues, had the Iraq campaign gone smoother, Syria and Iran were next on the chopping block. Lebanon, Libya, Sudan, Somalia were other invasion-needed countries and in some circles among the ideologues, Egypt and Saudi Arabia were on the list too.

So in a sense, the disastrousness of the Iraq war prevented a much large disaster from being opened up.

What is worrisome that many of the ideologues who lead us into Iraq have never stopped campaigning their cause. War is on their mind. If they get POTUS in the next election, war is the prescription that is being written. Debunkers here will have fun defending President Jeb Bush when some event drags us headlong into another enormously costly war.
 
We're probably on about the same page.

I don't blame Obama for not immediately fixing the disaster. But he has "owned" the situation for quite some time.

What should he have done differently? Not abided by the elected government in Iraq and the will of the American people and kept out involvement up in Iraq?

Waved his magic wand and fixed the region?
 
Well, then, since both Republicans and Democrats are responsible, I presume you will annul your vote ?

That is the joys of being in charge you can scapegoat people who go along with you as being more responsible than you are.
 
That's the thing though, even if Iraq still had WMD's (including U.S. and other Western/NATO countries supplied WMD), who cares? Many countries have some kind of WMD program. I don't see us hounding ourselves or the Israelis, the British, the French about WMD's. Obviously, those being routinely hounded for it are not on our team, they are Them and we are Us.

If it is a geopolitical argument, that Iraq's WMD's posed an existential threat to the U.S. homeland, it would be preferable to have argued that Iraq had the technical capability to launch and strike the homeland. That was not the case that was fervently pitched. It was the more vague and hypothetical case that was argued -- Saddam could have WMD's smuggled into the U.S.

If Iraq could do it, what's stopping the Russians, the Chinese and the North Koreans from doing the very same thing? The answer from the Iraq narrative is 1) nothing, which is followed by 2) they need to be invaded too! That is not a logical geopolitical move considering that the consequences of a full frontal against any of those three nations constitutes death at an unprecedented scale in the history of human warfare.

There is, however, a logical explanation to the decision to invade Iraq: the ideologues in power at the time of the invasion. Under the leadership of these ideologues, had the Iraq campaign gone smoother, Syria and Iran were next on the chopping block. Lebanon, Libya, Sudan, Somalia were other invasion-needed countries and in some circles among the ideologues, Egypt and Saudi Arabia were on the list too.

So in a sense, the disastrousness of the Iraq war prevented a much large disaster from being opened up.

What is worrisome that many of the ideologues who lead us into Iraq have never stopped campaigning their cause. War is on their mind. If they get POTUS in the next election, war is the prescription that is being written. Debunkers here will have fun defending President Jeb Bush when some event drags us headlong into another enormously costly war.

I used to teach 5th grade.
I was teaching when Gulf War Part 2 started.

  • I explained it this way.
  • In 1991 Iraq invaded Kuwaitt.
  • The world, lead by the US said, "You can't do that! Get out we'll get you out."
  • He didn't leave, so we got him out.
  • We made him sign a treaty. He agreed to do this, that and the other thing. SH also agreed not to do this, that and this other thing. One of those things was make WMDs. If you do one of those things you're not supposed to do, we'll come kick your butt again.
  • Bush (the second) thought he was making them - thus, violating the treaty.
  • Bush said, don't do that!
  • Bush was sure he was making WMDs and violating the agreement, so Bush decided to go in and kick his butt.


So, there's that aspect of all of this - violating the treaty (in Bush & Co.'s minds at least)
 
I used to teach 5th grade.
I was teaching when Gulf War Part 2 started.

  • I explained it this way.
  • In 1991 Iraq invaded Kuwaitt.
  • The world, lead by the US said, "You can't do that! Get out we'll get you out."
  • He didn't leave, so we got him out.
  • We made him sign a treaty. He agreed to do this, that and the other thing. SH also agreed not to do this, that and this other thing. One of those things was make WMDs. If you do one of those things you're not supposed to do, we'll come kick your butt again.
  • Bush (the second) thought he was making them - thus, violating the treaty.
  • Bush said, don't do that!
  • Bush was sure he was making WMDs and violating the agreement, so Bush decided to go in and kick his butt.


So, there's that aspect of all of this - violating the treaty (in Bush & Co.'s minds at least)

They made a passioned argument for invasion -- WMD, dictator, suffering people, international law violations, shooting at U.S./allied planes, 9/11 involvement, 1993 WTC bombing involvement, tried to assassinate President George H.W. Bush, ties to Islamic terrorism. Saddam was by no means a good person or deserving of life, but there are a lot of guys like that on the planet that we don't spend trillions of dollars taking out and occupying his country in his absence -- hell, we helped Saddam in the '80's and we've helped many other dictators around the world when it served our chief executive's foreign policy agenda.

A few of the ideologues let it slip that they were toppling Saddam because it needed to be done to secure Israel's security, since Iraq was a threat* to Israel, not the U.S. They did not need to say it out loud for it to be any more obvious though. The neoconservative + Israeli agenda took precedent over the real and imagined ills of Saddam. The Iraq war was going to happen regardless of what Saddam did.

* = Which is itself false. Israel has been the military hegemony in its region long before the Cold War ended.
 

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