Continuation Part 15: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[analemma]

Nobody is saying, "poor, poor Rudy", except you in a straw man.

There are two types of people, people who prefer the purity of truth, and those who like to have a Hollywood-style hate figure. This is childish mentality of the Harry Potter type.

In real life, the baddies aren't all ugly and deformed, lying in wait in the bushes. Indeed, Lucifer was said to be extremely beautiful and charming.

Let's drop the hyperbole.

When you drop the BS.
There is no Straw Man except the one you created with your falsehood about Poor Poor Rudy, the misunderstood victim of circumstances who is only idolized by Guilters.

 

[Numbers]

A resident means he lived there and couldn't have been a naturalized citizen from the time he arrived. ( resident of Perugia since infancy.)

He was not brought to Perugia by the Italian family. He was not a citizen since infancy.

Anglo this would be a perfect place for the online betting parlor we discussed long ago.

I would love to bet money or a yacht that Rudi (note the spelling in the original ISC document) was not a citizen of Italy on Nov. 1, 2007.

Glad you bring this up. Italian does not use "y" in its alphabet, unlike French or English, so "Rudi" would be the Italian-alphabet spelling of "Rudy". This issue of the spelling of Guede's nickname (that is, shortened version of his given first name) is as significant as, or perhaps less significant than, the discovery that a "truck" manufactured in the US and sent to the UK may become a "lorry" (or conversely).

 

[Grinder]

I think they had bigger fish to fry and since Rudy was facing far more serious charges in Perugia, they probably decided it wasn't worth the time or money.of course, we cannot prove that Rudy took the 2000 Euros the month before. Still coincidences seem to surround Rudy. But of course we can't convict him of coincidences.

Tesla if the same quality of rumor were used against the kids you'd be outraged and spewing vindictive remarks at the source. I've Googled "'Maria Mandu Diaz' and Perugia" for the dates 9/1/2007 to 11/1/2007 and not one hit. No story in a paper, nothing. This would have been a pretty big deal to have a burglar start a fire and have cat a killed.

Not only can't you prove he took 2000 in makes no sense. He took 2000 but was desperate for rent money and then went back to the scene of a felony and spent the night.

Like I said if these baseless claims were made against the kids you'd haw haw them away with a wave of the hand.

If he did a break in why didn't they convict of that along with possession? What bigger fish did the Milan LE have to fry?

ETA - Tesla when can I expect you to admit that the windows of the nursery have bars on them?

 

[anglolawyer]

Rule 6, MA.

I will be appearing for the defence.

Bill, please get rid of the Lord Haw-Haw personna.

The what?

A resident means he lived there and couldn't have been a naturalized citizen from the time he arrived. ( resident of Perugia since infancy.)

He was not brought to Perugia by the Italian family. He was not a citizen since infancy.

Anglo this would be a perfect place for the online betting parlor we discussed long ago.

I would love to bet money or a yacht that Rudi (note the spelling in the original ISC document) was not a citizen of Italy on Nov. 1, 2007.

Elsewhere here, two posters agreed a bet in which the loser was obliged to use an avatar chosen by the winner for a week.

Heading for a word definition debate, yet again. So technically not a "break in" if nothing was broken, still would be a burglary if something was stolen, and would likely at a minimum be trespassing if he was there without authorization from the owner.

What was Rudy done for over the Milan heist? Was it just theft and handling, or did he go down for burglary too?

 

[acbytesla]

When you drop the BS.
There is no Straw Man except the one you created with your falsehood about Poor Poor Rudy, the misunderstood victim of circumstances who is only idolized by Guilters.

It really is kind of sickening isn't it? Vixen keeps trying unsuccessfully that Rudy isn't a bad boy. That somehow he is being treated unfairly. Like we have one set of standards for Raffaele and Amanda and one for Rudy.

Show me the dam ties likimg Amanda and Raffaele to Rudy! Show me the calls, the texts, the emails sent between them. Show me the selfies. Amanda and Meredith met Rudy 11 days before the murder and other than Rudy stopping into League Chic once, there is no connection. No "see you later"to Rudy like the was to Patrick.

Also, by all accounts Amanda was spending all her time with Raffaele. And a few of those days between the time she met Rudy, he was in Milan. So how did they hook up that night? Osmosis?

 

[Numbers]

Heading for a word definition debate, yet again. So technically not a "break in" if nothing was broken, still would be a burglary if something was stolen, and would likely at a minimum be trespassing if he was there without authorization from the owner.

Yup trespass. Bars on the windows. One way or another he was informed of a way in without needing to break in. You may wish to debate semantics but entering with a key or being let in is not similar to the second story job at the cottage.

There was no indication he was there for a theft. He had petty cash and the knife IIRC.

Again, there is the ISF poster tendency to engage in definitional warfare.
Trespassing into a building is an element of burglary in the US, and the intent to commit a felony within the building another. We don't know the exact definition of burglary in Italy. We also don't know Guede's intent on his entry into the nursery. Maybe he was looking for something of value to steal, maybe he just wanted to use a restroom and take a nap.

Definitions of burglary (legal elements) in the US are available online. The definition of burglary has changed over time in the US, and not all States have the same definition.

Source: http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Burglary

Elements of the Offense

Trespass The Trespass element of the offense signifies that it must occur without the consent of the victim. If the thief gains entry by misrepresenting his or her identity, the element of trespass is satisfied, as there is no consent to entry.

Breaking Breaking consists of creating an opening for entry into the building. It can be accomplished by removing an object that is blocking an entry or by blasting open a wall. The use of force is not required. The breaking element is satisfied if access is obtained by opening a closed door or window, regardless of whether these are locked.

At common law, entering through a preexisting opening did not constitute breaking. If one gained access through an open door or window, burglary was not committed. The same rule applied when a door or window was partially open even though it was necessary to open it further in order to enter. The rationale under-lying this rule was that one who failed to secure his or her dwelling was not entitled to the protection of the law. A majority of states no longer follow this rule and consider breaking to be the slightest application of force to gain entry through a partially accessible opening.

When entry is gained by a Misrepresentation of identity or by any other trick, it is called constructive breaking, which satisfies the breaking requirement of burglary. On the other hand, if a person, such as a servant, has authority to enter, there is no breaking unless he or she breaks into and enters an unauthorized area.

Under the common law, the breaking had to occur immediately before the time of entry. Most jurisdictions that retain the breaking element are in agreement; in others, the breaking can occur during a reasonable time before the entry. Some jurisdictions have completely eliminated the element of breaking from the statutory definition of burglary, while others require it for one degree of burglary but not another.

 

[acbytesla]

Tesla if the same quality of rumor were used against the kids you'd be outraged and spewing vindictive remarks at the source. I've Googled "'Maria Mandu Diaz' and Perugia" for the dates 9/1/2007 to 11/1/2007 and not one hit. No story in a paper, nothing. This would have been a pretty big deal to have a burglar start a fire and have cat a killed.

Not only can't you prove he took 2000 in makes no sense. He took 2000 but was desperate for rent money and then went back to the scene of a felony and spent the night.

Like I said if these baseless claims were made against the kids you'd haw haw them away with a wave of the hand.

If he did a break in why didn't they convict of that along with possession? What bigger fish did the Milan LE have to fry?

ETA - Tesla when can I expect you to admit that the windows of the nursery have bars on them?

It's really absurd to think that Rudy didn't break into the nursery or the law office. The evidence at Christian and Ms Diaz is much thinner. I give you that.

I DON'T think Rudy had a date with Meredith, so yes I believe that he broke into the cottage as well.

 

[davefoc]

Tesla how's this:

At the hearing of June 27, 2009, the witness Maria Antonietta Salvadori Del Prato Titone testified that on the morning of October 27, 2007, a Saturday, as she entered the nursery school at via Plinio 16, Milan, of which she was the principal, she noticed coming out of her office a person whom she didn't know, later identified as Rudy Guede. There were no signs of a break-in.

I'm sure she just forgot that there was a window forced open or do you think they just left windows open on the ground floor. They have bars on the windows but maybe he had a laser and cut them and then welded them back together.

You're as wrong as a vixen on this.

Have we entered the land of whether a marmot is a squirrel? I would call it a break-in if Guede found an unlatched window and opened it. And the case would be even stronger if Guede used a tool to open a locked window latch even if he didn't break anything. No signs of a break-in doesn't preclude the possibility that the signs have been missed.

In Grinder lingo, if somebody gains entrance by picking a lock, has he broken in? Here is a handy table for you to correct my foolish ideas of what a break-in is:

1. Walked through a door left open - not a break-in
2. Opened an unlocked door - break-in
3. Climbed through an open window - break-in
4. Opened an unlatched window, opened it and climbed through it - break-in
5. Unlatched a window from the outside and climbed through - break-in
6. Picked a lock to gain access - break-in
7. Broke something to gain access - break-in

Merriam Webster seems to agree somewhat more, but not categorically, with a restrictive definition:

the act or crime of illegally entering a house, building, etc., especially by using force

ETA: I hadn't seen Numbers post when I wrote the above, although he provides more details it looks to me like my ideas about the definition of break-in were similar to what he put forth.

 

[carbonjam72]

I will be appearing for the defence.

The what?


Elsewhere here, two posters agreed a bet in which the loser was obliged to use an avatar chosen by the winner for a week.



What was Rudy done for over the Milan heist? Was it just theft and handling, or did he go down for burglary too?

IIUC, Rudy was convicted only of possession of stolen property, he was not convicted of theft, burglary, etc. (Relating to the items stolen from the law office in Perugia.)

I don't recall if Rudy was ever charged in regard to Milan Nursery school.

btw, what is Lord Haw Haw? I refuse to bother google with this trivia, they have far more important searches to perform. I did though at first think it was a reference to the TV show 'Hee-Haw', and then tried to picture Bill W in those baggy blue country overalls, but quickly banished that image from my mind.

Once again, Vixen perplexes.

 

[RoseMontague]

IIUC, Rudy was convicted only of possession of stolen property, he was not convicted of theft, burglary, etc. (Relating to the items stolen from the law office in Perugia.)

I don't recall if Rudy was ever charged in regard to Milan Nursery school.

btw, what is Lord Haw Haw? I refuse to bother google with this trivia, they have far more important searches to perform. I did though at first think it was a reference to the TV show 'Hee-Haw', and then tried to picture Bill W in those baggy blue country overalls, but quickly banished that image from my mind.

Once again, Vixen perplexes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Haw-Haw

 

[Vixen]

It really is kind of sickening isn't it? Vixen keeps trying unsuccessfully that Rudy isn't a bad boy. That somehow he is being treated unfairly. Like we have one set of standards for Raffaele and Amanda and one for Rudy.

Show me the dam ties likimg Amanda and Raffaele to Rudy! Show me the calls, the texts, the emails sent between them. Show me the selfies. Amanda and Meredith met Rudy 11 days before the murder and other than Rudy stopping into League Chic once, there is no connection. No "see you later"to Rudy like the was to Patrick.

Also, by all accounts Amanda was spending all her time with Raffaele. And a few of those days between the time she met Rudy, he was in Milan. So how did they hook up that night? Osmosis?

The link is drugs.

 

[Grinder]

It's really absurd to think that Rudy didn't break into the nursery or the law office. The evidence at Christian and Ms Diaz is much thinner. I give you that.

I DON'T think Rudy had a date with Meredith, so yes I believe that he broke into the cottage as well.

Tesla there are bars on the windows of the nursery. How did he break in? the owner herself said there were no signs of a break in. He was let in as he wasn't found with the key.

Why is it absurd to think he didn't break into the law offices? He had some of their missing stuff but he could have been the fence. It is also possible that he had an accomplice if he did break into the offices as the lawyer stated the alarm was disabled and that he as the owner wouldn't have known how. I believe it was Dan O that has indicated he thinks that would be easy to do.

Very similar to vixen you refuse to admit when shown to be wrong. The windows have bars over them so your "he found" an open window is ridiculous.

Numbers - the conversation was not about the legal definition of break in but rather if he broke in as used in common language. Trespass is entering without permission which is what he did. tesla et al. use the nursery as "another" break in but as demonstrated from court sources no such similar entrance occurred. When it is shown that no open window entry is possible no acknowledgement is given.

We know Rudi (thanks for y versus i usage) was in the nursery and didn't break anything to get in or use a window. We know he possessed stolen merchandise and that's it.

You'll note Tesla brings up things and as a vixen doesn't respond when challenged. He ignores the fact that Nina is no more viable than Richard.

 

[acbytesla]

The link is drugs.

This is something they had in common. It is NOT A LINK. They all smoked pot, So does my brother. Should we consider him a suspect as well?

 

[davefoc]

The link is drugs.

What does this mean? Is everybody that has smoked marijuana linked to every other person in the world by the fact that they have smoked marijuana. OK, but this seems a bit of a tenuous idea to put forth to support the notion that Guede and Knox knew each other. So you must mean something else. What?

Do you mean that Knox and Guede knew each other or that they had some sort of significant interaction? There seems to be some evidence that they had seen each other. There is no evidence as far as I know that Sollecito had even seen Guede.

But the important question is whether there was any significant interaction between them and the evidence you provide for that is that they both had used marijuana? Or are you relying on the idea that Knox had the phone number of somebody that had a history of drug abuse to support the idea that there was a tie-in between Knox and Guede?

Doesn't that seem a bit of a tenuous piece of evidence to you? Do you have evidence that Guede and Knox had ever had any significant interactions? You know stuff like phone records, letters, witness statements? Do you have any testimony from Guede about how Knox and he conspired to murder Kercher? Do you have any testimony from Guede about any interactions at all with Knox?

 

[Bill Williams]

Rule 6, MA.

I will be appearing for the defence.

You'd better get your pay up front. I was once accused of being "repetitive", and when someone complained, way back when, the reason why it was not ruled as "flooding" was because it was asking the same question when there had been no answer.

All that happened without any of you high-priced mouth-pieces.

But if you're going to defend Vixen from allegations of flooding, make sure your firm gets your billing hours seen to first!

 

[Grinder]

Have we entered the land of whether a marmot is a squirrel? I would call it a break-in if Guede found an unlatched window and opened it. And the case would be even stronger if Guede used a tool to open a locked window latch even if he didn't break anything. No signs of a break-in doesn't preclude the possibility that the signs have been missed.

There was no sign of a break in as per Prato the owner/witness. The windows have bars over them. If you wish to attempt to make this some debate over language go for it but it isn't.

In Grinder lingo, if somebody gains entrance by picking a lock, has he broken in? Here is a handy table for you to correct my foolish ideas of what a break-in is:

1. Walked through a door left open - not a break-in
2. Opened an unlocked door - break-in
3. Climbed through an open window - break-in
4. Opened an unlatched window, opened it and climbed through it - break-in
5. Unlatched a window from the outside and climbed through - break-in
6. Picked a lock to gain access - break-in
7. Broke something to gain access - break-in

Dave now you are speculating that Rudi knew how to pick locks I'm sure Tesla will regale us with his youthful lock picking and how easy it is.

There were no signs of anything broken. How clear must that be.

The windows have iron bars. There is no entrance through the windows. How would Rudi have found this place? Do you think he entered the complex of one place after another looking for an open window.

ETA: I hadn't seen Numbers post when I wrote the above, although he provides more details it looks to me like my ideas about the definition of break-in were similar to what he put forth.

The conversation isn't about legal definition but rather about Rudi's alleged patterns. As it were Rudi was not charged with B&E in any of the cases but was charged with possession.

 

[Bill Williams]

Well, the issue was the claim of "sole perp." Vixen said that any talk of Rudy being a "sole perp" in the past, was an attempt to "demonize" him.

Still..... the use of "most likely," in the third sentence tends to call into question the certainty of the first sentence.

No matter.

No Haw Haw it calls into question whether it was him being let in or using a key.

Topic surfing alert! It is actually apt to stray into parallel issues, this thread is rife with topic surfing, riding one wave then addressing another.

This one started with Vixen's assertion that calling Rudy a "sole perp" was demonizing him.

Ok, now that's settled in the manner of showing that Vixen was, yet again, asserting something against the evidence (all the while proclaiming to be in the search for the purity of truth......)......

We actually can surf over to that other wave - how does Rudy's sole-perp-burglary in Milan relate to his mode of entry....

 

[Kauffer]

The link is drugs.

A call, a text, an email, a visit to each other's apartments, a planned interaction, a witness to a drug sale or purchase - something? Anything to indicate a relationship?

 

[Numbers]

Tesla there are bars on the windows of the nursery. How did he break in? the owner herself said there were no signs of a break in. He was let in as he wasn't found with the key.

Why is it absurd to think he didn't break into the law offices? He had some of their missing stuff but he could have been the fence. It is also possible that he had an accomplice if he did break into the offices as the lawyer stated the alarm was disabled and that he as the owner wouldn't have known how. I believe it was Dan O that has indicated he thinks that would be easy to do.

Very similar to vixen you refuse to admit when shown to be wrong. The windows have bars over them so your "he found" an open window is ridiculous.

Numbers - the conversation was not about the legal definition of break in but rather if he broke in as used in common language. Trespass is entering without permission which is what he did. tesla et al. use the nursery as "another" break in but as demonstrated from court sources no such similar entrance occurred. When it is shown that no open window entry is possible no acknowledgement is given.

We know Rudi (thanks for y versus i usage) was in the nursery and didn't break anything to get in or use a window. We know he possessed stolen merchandise and that's it.

You'll note Tesla brings up things and as a vixen doesn't respond when challenged. He ignores the fact that Nina is no more viable than Richard.

It seems absurd and counter-productive to attempt to argue or debate and yet not have common definitions on the topic. Furthermore, there is the inconsistency of arguing about legal matters - in Italy - where the posters (including especially me) don't have full knowledge of the law (the CP, Italian criminal code, which defines the legal elements of crimes and their punishments). Then one attempts to use the "common definition" which is really an abbreviated version of a generalized US or common law definition. Note that Italy has never had the common law, which derives from English and more generally British law.

What are the elements of the crime of burglary in Italy? There may be issues relating to whether or not something is stolen, which is what I infer from Hellmann's discussion of Raffaele's comment to the police that "there has been a break-in but nothing is missing" (or words to that effect).

ETA: And you, Grinder, are stating what the discussion was about. That is your opinion. I am entitled to my opinion and my statements.

 

[davefoc]

There was no sign of a break in as per Prato the owner/witness. The windows have bars over them. If you wish to attempt to make this some debate over language go for it but it isn't.



Dave now you are speculating that Rudi knew how to pick locks I'm sure Tesla will regale us with his youthful lock picking and how easy it is.

There were no signs of anything broken. How clear must that be.

The windows have iron bars. There is no entrance through the windows. How would Rudi have found this place? Do you think he entered the complex of one place after another looking for an open window.




The conversation isn't about legal definition but rather about Rudi's alleged patterns. As it were Rudi was not charged with B&E in any of the cases but was charged with possession.

A fair point, but a pretty good case has been put forth that Guede did enter the unit illegally. I believe you objected to two things with regard to this claim. It is not certain and if he did gain access it wasn't via B & E.

I disagree a bit with your first view in that it sounds to me like the evidence that has been put forth makes it at least likely that Guede did enter the unit illegally. And secondly I disagree with your notion that a lack of evidence for a B & E type of entrance precludes the possibility that Guede did enter the apartment via a B & E. And lastly I disagree a bit with your restrictive use of the term B & E. And it was that issue that I responded to above.