Continuation Part 15: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[davefoc]

A correction was made to the November 2 statement.

page 3 in the original Italian says: "che ho ritrovato chiusa a chiave"

That was translated by mistake as: "that I found again was locked"

It's been corrected to: "that I found was still locked"

How do those Italian words equal "that I found was still locked"?

This is just a curiosity question. The key to the changed translation seems to be that ritrovare means something different than trovare although both words are often translated as find.

The literal translation as I understand it so far:

that I have found closed by key
​

perhaps ritrovare means something like refind?

So the literal translation is:

that I have re-found closed by key
​

So "that I found was still locked" in terms of meaning is as good a translation as is possible?

ETA: It is interesting how hard it is in some cases to translate something so as to produce the exact meaning in the translated text.

 

[Grinder]

Seriously!? Dude: John Follain is a suspect source, but now the Daily Mail deserves a mention?

It's hard not to go for laughs here. Suffice it to say that if it has come to this, then this case really was terminated on March 27, 2015. And suffice it to say that there really is nothing to talk about until the Marasca motivations report comes out.

Dude?
Read those early reports including The Mail and a picture of what the police were saying becomes clear and how early the case was set. "All the lies" seems clearly a direct reflection of the PLE position immediately, not by any means the creation of the PGP.

These are pre Foxy Knoxy. They do feature Purton's trail of men. How did that get out so quickly?

 

[Dan O.]

Timeline from November 5:
(times with solid evidence are in bold, all others may be speculation on somebodies part)

• 09:00 Amanda showed up for her nine A.M. Italian class at the University for Foreigners. (page 236, Nina Burleigh's book, The Fatal Gift of Beauty)
• 13:00 After class Amanda met Patrick in front of the Universita per Stranieri.
  CP: Listen, in the statement of Nov 6 at 5:45, you declared to the police that you met Patrick in the morning of Nov 5, in front of the Universita per Stranieri. (Amanda Testimony)
  AK had two conversations with Lumumba prior to the interrogation, by phone he reached her at the Questura on Nov 2 at 7:30pm, and a street meeting at 1pm on Nov 5th. (Dempsey, MiI p146)
• 14:00 Rosa Natalia Guman Fernendez de Calle, RS' cleaning lady, cleans RS' apartment for the last time.
  Sollecito and Knox were there then.[5]
• 15:00 Raffaele picked up (according to news)
  "police picked up Rafaele Sollecito for questioning, three days after Kercher's body was discovered. Police located Sollecito at a cafe. It was three in the afternoon and Sollecito was eating a pizza. But Sollecito wasn't alone. Amanda Knox was also sharing the pizza"[6]
• ??:?? "the late afternoon of 5 November when Raffaele and Amanda went to the police station" (Massei 332)
• 17:00 Raffaele summoned to the police station. Amanda goes with him and waits in a separate room. (PMF)
• 17:00 Student Memorial for Meredith [7]
  "A picture taken on Monday night November, 5 2007 shows a tribute from Meredith Kercher's friends in Perugia who held held a candlelight vigil on the steps of the town's cathedral.The English girl was brutally murdered at her apartment late last week."
• 17:00 Sunset in Perugia [8]
• 20:00 Candlelight vigil for Meredith. (PMF)
• 20:49 Raffaele called to come immediately to the police station. He negotiates to come in after dinner. (intercepted phone call)
• 21:40 "Sollecito left his computer at home and went into police headquarters 21:40 p.m. on November 5 for questioning" ([9])
• 22:00 AK and RS arrive at station. (Fiona JREF1 #440)
• 22:15 The evening of the 5th she (Monica) calls Raffaele for an interview. He finishes his dinner with Amanda and shows up at 22.15. With Amanda too. --(Perugia Shock 2009-02-27)
• 22:29 Amanda makes a 3 minute phone call to Filomena
  Amanda says she "Just arrived" and Raffaele is being questioned. The call ends with Amanda saying: "Now somebody wants to talk to me."
• 22:30 Raffaele, being questioned at this point, breaks and begins to change his story (PMF)
• 22:40 (at the earliest - Amanda is talking to Filomena about where to live at 1039) Amanda is called in for formal questioning (PMF)
• 22:40 Raffaele's interrogation begins (summary statement)
  Sollecito Raffaele was interviewed again, and he changed his version of events, saying that on the evening of November 1, after Meredith left the house, he was with Knox Amanda until 1800 when they had both left the apartment to go into the centre, around 2030 to 2100.(Telegraph:Judges Report)
• 23:00 The infamous cartwheel.
  Ms Napoleone said: 'She had complained that she was feeling tired and at that stage I told her that she could go if she wanted. 'She said she wanted to stay, Sollecito was also at the station at the time and she said she wanted to wait for him. 'A few minutes later I walked past a room at the police station where she was waiting and I saw Amanda doing the splits and a cartwheel. It was around 11am on November 5th.
• 23:29 Raffaele receives call from father.

The informal portion of Amanda's interrogation is presumed to have begun at 22:32 in the elevator lobby when she finishes her call with Filomena saying "now somebody wants to talk to me". This becomes more formal around 23:00 when she is taken from the lobby into one of the interrogation rooms.

 

[MichaelB]

How do those Italian words equal "that I found was still locked"?

This is just a curiosity question. The key to the changed translation seems to be that ritrovare means something different than trovare although both words are often translated as find.

The literal translation as I understand it so far:

that I have found closed by key
​

perhaps ritrovare means something like refind?

So the literal translation is:

that I have re-found closed by key
​

So "that I found was still locked" in terms of meaning is as good a translation as is possible?

ETA: It is interesting how hard it is in some cases to translate something so as to produce the exact meaning in the translated text.

I obviously don't speak Italian but here's the discussion of it:

in context, given that she had stated earlier that she left to go back to Raffaele's then it is more correct to say "that I found was still locked". ritrovato can also mean just "found" when looking for something, but in this context it's better to say "still locked"

 

[Grinder]

I obviously don't speak Italian but here's the discussion of it:

in context, given that she had stated earlier that she left to go back to Raffaele's then it is more correct to say "that I found was still locked". ritrovato can also mean just "found" when looking for something, but in this context it's better to say "still locked"

Thanks for these posts. Is there site where these translations reside permanently?

 

[MichaelB]

Thanks for these posts. Is there site where these translations reside permanently?

Yep, they're under defendant statements here: http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/statements-phone-taps-prison-intercepts/

The rest is in the documents menu on the left.

CSI Photos / Video
Case Files / Reports
Witness Depositions
Defendant Statements
Trial Transcripts
Court Rulings / Appeals

 

[Desert Fox]

I have a strange question. . . . .
Raff and Amanda listen to suggestions to get a lawyer, what happens?

 

[Numbers]

I have a strange question. . . . .
Raff and Amanda listen to suggestions to get a lawyer, what happens?

If you are asking what would have happened if Raf and/or Amanda had retained a lawyer prior to the Nov. 5/6 interrogations, I suppose the answer is that those interrogations would not have happened, or they would have happened very differently.

The police were obligated to provide them each with a lawyer in accordance with Italian procedural law (the CPP) at the beginning of the interrogation, and caution them, if each was a suspect.

If there was the intent by the police to elicit incriminating statements (interrogation), the police were obligated to provide each with a lawyer and caution according to ECHR case-law, if the statements were to be used in court to obtain a conviction.

 

[bagels]

I have a strange question. . . . .
Raff and Amanda listen to suggestions to get a lawyer, what happens?

They eventually arrest Rudy and he tries to blame it on a left handed Italian stranger who came in and stabbed Meredith while he was on the toilet.

 

[Grinder]

They eventually arrest Rudy and he tries to blame it on a left handed Italian stranger who came in and stabbed Meredith while he was on the toilet.

Is there any evidence that Rudi was a fan of The Fugitive?

 

[MichaelB]

I'm curious if anyone has had a look at the guilter wiki file library and how they've organized all the documents? It seems really stupid to me. There's no names or descriptions given. They're all just posted with the file name one after another so anyone new to the case would have absolutely no idea what they are. So it'll be 1-11-2010-deposition-Ilic.pdf. The other thing is they've made it an absolute maze to navigate. Some documents are 6 clicks in to find and access.

About a week ago I was checking out the document site for the WM3 case and I'd seen people say how brilliant this site is: http://callahan.8k.com/documents_az.html

But if you go there, it's just the names of the witnesses and a link. Who are those people? What ones are worth reading if you know nothing about the case? That website is better than the guilter wiki because at least they have names next to the download link.

It's the same on the Darlie Routier facts site. Click on case files-transcripts and it's just name after name with no description.

I think the fake wiki has posted them all for show. And they've added all these lab manuals as well which is really quite bizarre. What for? Who's going to read them?

Finally this week they added a translation of Guede's Skype chat with Giacomo where he said "Amanda wasn't there". It's only been nearly 2 years since that was available. Still no sign of his March deposition. At one point they only had like 2 documents under Guede as if he didn't exist.

Catnip is apparently translating the Micheli report.

 

[Grinder]

Finally this week they added a translation of Guede's Skype chat with Giacomo where he said "Amanda wasn't there". It's only been nearly 2 years since that was available. Still no sign of his March deposition. At one point they only had like 2 documents under Guede as if he didn't exist.

That Skype content was available way early to some in the media. When you say 2 years ago, to whom did it become available? The defense didn't have it until then?

 

[MichaelB]

That Skype content was available way early to some in the media. When you say 2 years ago, to whom did it become available? The defense didn't have it until then?

No, Amanda posted the full translation on her site. Before that I think there was only excerpts in the media.

 

[Grinder]

No, Amanda posted the full translation on her site. Before that I think there was only excerpts in the media.

I'm only curious as to how the info was released.

From November 26, 2007:

During a three-hour internet exchange he claimed they had sex, with
Kercher a willing participant.
At that point, with police passing M notes of what to say, Guede denied he had
killed her.
He claimed that he had gone to the bathroom because of an upset stomach when he heard the doorbell ring.
After that he said he heard "the English girl" screaming.
Her throat had been slashed "by an Italian lad with chestnut hair. We knocked into each other, I was also injured, but I cannot remember clearly the face of that man.
"Then I ran away, I was scared. I am not the one who killed her".
Forensic evidence places Guede undeniably at the centre of the crime. His fingerprints were all over Kercher's bedroom, his DNA has been found and there were even particles of his hair clenched in the dead girl's hands.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...d-night-club-right-killing.html#ixzz3aVTHwNRV
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

I'm pretty sure the part where he said Amanda wasn't there came out early.

 

[Grinder]

I found this dated November 22,2007.

Meredith murder: the text of the call via Skype with Rudy Hermann Guede
Massimo Brignolo avatar Thursday, November 22, 2007, 14:50 in Diary
of Massimo Brignolo

Rudy Hermann GuedeItalian newspapers have published only some excerpts of the transcript of the telephone conversation between a friend, in the offices of the Police, and Rudy Hermann Guede via Skype that led to the location of the suspect and his arrest by Interpol.

Thanks to Times Online can read the full transcript that we present in its translation into Italian.

Friend: Hello Rudy, how are you?

Rudy: Not too good

Friend: Where are you?

Rudy: In Dusseldorf and have no money

Friend: Where do you live?

Rudy: In a barge on the Rhine, sleeping on trains without paying the ticket. It 's hard, I can not continue

Friend: You want me to send money?

Rudy: It would be useful

Friend: I am sending you 50 € with Western Union so you can take them

Rudy: Thank you, but it is too late

Friend: Here in Perugia are talking about you

Rudy: I ​​know what happened, but they are mistaken. No Baron, call me Byron Byron Scott, the famous basketball player.

Friend: But they also say more

Rudy: You know I knew Meredith and Amanda, but nothing more. I've been twice in their home, the last time a few days before the event, but have not done anything. I have nothing to do with this affair. I was not there that night. If they have found my footprints means that I had left earlier.

Friend: But your picture is everywhere.

Rudy: I ​​saw her, police wrong to put my photo everywhere. Not as I describe. I have nothing to do with that night.

Friend: But if you have nothing to do because they do not come back? I'll help you find a good lawyer who will bail them out.

Rudy: I'm afraid. But I will not stay in Germany, are color and if the police take me I do not know what could happen. I prefer the Italian prisons.

ETA -I don't have an account there so I don't know if it is still there.

 

[Numbers]

This is good, but why should the document recite that Amanda speaks Italian "sufficiently" when they needed to bring in an English speaking detective? I find it bizarre that when English is spoken, it is translated into Italian and then translated back into English. Why are their two translations? The original English should be relied upon and the Italian translation checked for accuracy.

The importance of the subject matter in your last para is not whether the document is a verbatim account (even though the document calls itself a "transcript"), but whether it is a full and accurate record of everything Amanda said. You appear to think that it isn't. If so, I agree with you. Anglo does not, I think, agree with me.

In Italian, the document calls itself a "verbale". "Verbale" has several different possible translations in English; these may include "minutes", "record", "report", and "transcript". Because the document calls itself a summary (sommerie) it also should not be considered to provide a record of everything that was said in the questioning or statement-taking (aka witness interview). However, I believe it is intended to be an accurate record of relevant information from a witness ("person informed of the facts").

 

[Grinder]

In Italian, the document calls itself a "verbale". "Verbale" has several different possible translations in English; these may include "minutes", "record", "report", and "transcript". Because the document calls itself a summary (sommerie) it also should not be considered to provide a record of everything that was said in the questioning or statement-taking (aka witness interview). However, I believe it is intended to be an accurate record of relevant information from a witness ("person informed of the facts").

The problem I'm having and perhaps Kauffer is that the total summary just doesn't represent an hour or more of questioning. Even with translating I don't see this as more than 10 or 15 minutes.

The weasel word here is relevant. Was it relevant when they asked her about her work and the people there? Was it relevant when they asked about her evening?

What were the things she told them that they "knew" not to be correct?

 

[davefoc]

I obviously don't speak Italian but here's the discussion of it:

in context, given that she had stated earlier that she left to go back to Raffaele's then it is more correct to say "that I found was still locked". ritrovato can also mean just "found" when looking for something, but in this context it's better to say "still locked"

One of the reasons I looked into the retranslation a bit, was that I wanted to understand whether it was a retranslation based on the context or whether it was a retranslation based on the actual meaning of the words. If it was a retranslation based on context it might have been done just to make the overall context be a little more consistent which might have masked some other kind of strangeness here. But if it was really correcting a translation error then I think it would be almost knowable that whatever was strange in the section you quoted was completely explained by the mistranslation.

This is obviously a very small issue, I just chose to try to understand it. Right now, it looks like it was probably just a routine minor mistranslation that hangs on a nuanced view of the difference between ritrovare and trovare. But that nuanced understanding is beyond what I could obtain from on-line dictionaries and translators. I hope somebody that does speak Italian might offer some insight into the difference between ritrovare and trovare and perhaps additionally on my overall understanding of the translation.

 

[davefoc]

I have a strange question. . . . .
Raff and Amanda listen to suggestions to get a lawyer, what happens?

I've wondered the same thing.

If you are asking what would have happened if Raf and/or Amanda had retained a lawyer prior to the Nov. 5/6 interrogations, I suppose the answer is that those interrogations would not have happened, or they would have happened very differently.

The police were obligated to provide them each with a lawyer in accordance with Italian procedural law (the CPP) at the beginning of the interrogation, and caution them, if each was a suspect.

If there was the intent by the police to elicit incriminating statements (interrogation), the police were obligated to provide each with a lawyer and caution according to ECHR case-law, if the statements were to be used in court to obtain a conviction.

To further Numbers' speculation:
The so called confession wouldn't have happened and obviously the retraction of the so-called confession wouldn't have happened.

That leads to the next level of speculation. The police are pretty sure Lumumba is involved, they have almost no evidence against Lumumba, AK or RS. Would they have initiated the same scheme of leaked misinformation anyway? Would that washing machine still be spinning when the postal police arrive? Was Mignini so consumed with his fantasies about some sort of weird sexual murder involving Knox that he was just about unstoppable even if he doesn't get that non-nonsensical pseudo confession early on?

Hopefully somebody will provide some speculation more informed than myself on the answer.

 

[Numbers]

The problem I'm having and perhaps Kauffer is that the total summary just doesn't represent an hour or more of questioning. Even with translating I don't see this as more than 10 or 15 minutes.

The weasel word here is relevant. Was it relevant when they asked her about her work and the people there? Was it relevant when they asked about her evening?

What were the things she told them that they "knew" not to be correct?

I believe your points are good ones. We don't know how much detail was gone over in the actual interview compared to the information that was presented in the VSI. And I stated that I believed the VSI is "intended" to be an accurate summary; but the "intent" may be in those that drafted the procedure to write VSIs after witness interviews. It may or may not have been the intent of the police conducting the interview to present a complete and accurate summary of the relevant information.

One very clear point is that the police knew that Amanda worked at Patrick Lumumba's pub as of Nov. 2. This shows, IMO, their bad faith in their interrogation of her Nov. 5/6.