Continuation Part 15: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Grinder]

Do snarky comments like this make you feel better about yourself?

Might check the posting rules.

The remark wasn't directed at you but a friend with whom I recently had a discussion offline about Googling.

Since I didn't answer your question with the quotes, I don't know how you'd come to the conclusion it was directed at you nor why you would think it snarky.

 

[carbonjam72]

I can't wait for the 100% accurate accounting of the fateful interrogations of Nov 5/6, 2007. Not only Amanda's, but Raffaele's, Patrick's, and then later Rudy's.

Its hard to imagine that ever sees the light of day, assuming it even exists.

But Rudy's interrogation from Dec 7, 2007 with Mignini, Biscotti and Matteini, IIUC, is a part of the case file, it just happens to be under seal. So at some point, that could come out. You know, the part where Rudy says Amanda wan't there, and he doesn't know who Raf is.

Matteini in particular could well be on shaky ground, maybe that's why Rudy's case file is under seal, courtesy to another judge?

 

[Wattson]

You must be confused. The response wasn't directed at you. My response was to a friend with whom I was having a conversation about people's passive/aggressive behaviors.

 

[LashL]

This is how it is supposed to work in all civilized countries with the rule of law. When a case is made up entirely of circumstantial evidence (which many are), the trier of fact is to assess each piece of circumstantial evidence for reliability and evidentiary value, if any, as against the accused. This is not even remotely close to requiring proof BARD with respect to each piece of evidence, as some PGP suggest. It is simply that they do not wish to understand the proper process for assessing pieces of evidence.

If any given piece of circumstantial evidence is unreliable or has no evidentiary value against the accused, then it should not be considered further when it ultimately comes time for the trier to fact to assess whether or not the totality of the pieces of reliable and probative evidence as a whole amount to proof BARD.

Hellmann nailed this, and his written judgment is the only one released yet in this case that passes juridical muster and demonstrates a proper appreciation of the law.

Moreover, circumstantial evidence is sufficient to warrant a conviction only when it is consistent with the conclusion that the criminal act was committed by the accused AND that the facts are such as to be inconsistent with any other rational conclusion other than that the accused in the guilty party. That is to say, the test for conviction based on circumstantial evidence is that the trier of fact must be satisfied BARD that the only rational inference that can be drawn by the circumstantial evidence is that the accused is guilty.

This has been the law for a long, long time here in Canada, and it is supposed to be law in Italy as well. The elements of an offence have to be established BARD, and while an element of an offence can be based on circumstantial evidence, that is only so when a trier of fact is satisfied BARD that the guilt of the accused is the only reasonable inference to be drawn from the proven facts. The proven facts are those that have survived scrutiny in the initial assessment of the evidence (for reliability and evidentiary value, etc., as noted above). Reliance on irrational or speculative evidence to support an inference of guilt is not appropriate, and cannot properly sustain a conviction.

I meant to provide some Supreme Court of Canada case law on this but must have messed it up so I will add some here.

R. v. Cote (1941), 77 C.C.C. 75 (S.C.C.)
R. v. Cooper, [1978] 1 SCR 860
R. v. Nadeau, [1984] 2 SCR 570
R. v. Thatcher, [1987] 1 SCR 652
R. v. Griffin, 2009 SCC 28

There are scads of other appellate court decisions and lower court decisions on the same point as well, of course.

 

[Grinder]

So i just found another interesting article - it's a machine translation unfortunately but the last part indicates they were definitely considering the break in staged as they were focusing on people that had keys. I can't believe the press didn't know about the window and break in.

PERUGIA - "It seems raped by more than one. Maybe two people. Merdeith Kercher has two large bruises on his cheeks. Yes, it may have been in two. While one abused her, it is likely that another the bloccasse, tappandole mouth and squeezing her jaws. Because who raped held her only with his right hand. Only further analysis will say in a few days if the organic matter taken in the girl belongs to one or two individuals. For now only hypothesis. But the signs on Body suggest more than one. " The first results of the autopsy on British student throat cut in Perugia, tell a terrible story. That of a sexual encounter started "probably by consensus but then degenerated." The girl had to suffer under the threat of a knife blade smooth, "over four five centimeters." Or maybe it was a simple "no serrated kitchen knife." She struggled. He fought against the murderess. Not only lost. Unfortunately he had had "a long agony." Two bloody, identical to those found in the apartment of Meredith, were found in the home of neighbors, downstairs the house of St. Anthony Street, rented Marche four students, one of whom had a flirtation with the English girl. He has an alibi, he was home to the bridge, and apparently also the other three. But it is they who hold the police under pressure. If they were not there and since the door was not forced, to some of the guys who has lent the keys?



No longer count the times in which it was felt, even in the night, Sophie, the best friend. Perhaps it is harboring a secret, or a suspect. But it reveals. Out of fear, the investigators speculate. Even yesterday was brought into the house of horror, as her friends, the last supper. And, immediately after the autopsy, the investigators forced him to a new survey as well the three roommates of the murdered girl. Without entering with gloves and made ​​out with a blanket over his head, to hide the photographers. Two groomed trails. The first tip straight to the house of "filarino" and his friends. There are traces of blood from Meredith and maybe the killer, who seems to have injured during the fight with the victim and would be washed in the bathroom of the house of the girl and then fled. The second track of investigation focuses on the inner circle of friends. There are suspicions of a North African cook, one who works in one of the pubs frequented by students in Perugia English, Meredith and by her friends. "It 's the type of cut throat" that investigators do somehow think Islam. But officially they say he was a friend, like others. He could have received the keys from the neighbors, from roommates? "That yes, but there is no other." Perugia is pending. It reacts indignantly to one macabre joke. Yesterday morning at the gate of the university for foreigners, not far from the home of Meredith, was found a billboard: "Apartment for rent in via Sant'Antonio, free from November, to Erasmus students, preferably English." A joke or the challenge of the killer? When in doubt, the seizure of Digos. "We'll have to cross the data, the findings at the crime scene, the stuff on the computer and phones, the autopsy results. We need a few days," says the commissioner De Felice. Nothing about the phone records, the last call is to the mother for the good night. No drugs at home or in the body of Meredith. The power of attorney and the coroner, Luca Lalli, after the autopsy speak of elements "interesting". The family of Meredith is waiting to Perugia for tonight or tomorrow morning. ( November 5, 2007 )

 

[Grinder]

I don't know if these Italian articles were available when written but if so I missed it.

I can't seem to be able to cut and paste but it reports that on the 3rd Sophie told the police of the stream of men Amanda had according to what Meredith had told her. Story published the 8th

http://www.corriere.it/cronache/07_novembre_08/perugia_tipi_strani.shtml

 

[RoseMontague]

I don't know if these Italian articles were available when written but if so I missed it.

I can't seem to be able to cut and paste but it reports that on the 3rd Sophie told the police of the stream of men Amanda had according to what Meredith had told her. Story published the 8th

http://www.corriere.it/cronache/07_novembre_08/perugia_tipi_strani.shtml

Here is her statement from the 3rd (I'm not seeing it). Nor on her statement from the 2nd.

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/2007-11-03-Witness-deposition-Purton.pdf

ETA on quick OCR convert: (Google translation)

ADR: I would like to report some things that Meredith told me Amanda, with whom I have Ia same confidence I had with Meredith. But I think they are important. Meredith told me Amanda would bring Akune times of men in their house, I do not know how many they were. Meredith told me in detail of a man who works in an internet cafe. And 'the place where Amanda would have known. Meredith thought that this man was strange. In fact he was not specified other. I gave weight to what only after ifatti in argument. I can not indicate the age of this man. In addition to the latter definitely almena another man had been taken into their home. I do not know Ia indicate nationality of these people .---------------
ADR: I think, for Amanda, some of these men were just friends, but I think with what we've worked to a network cafre dom1ito together .-----
ADR: Meredith has a blog. I can see the contents of my .----- ADR: I have nothing to add .---------------------

 

[Samson]

Indeed.





Indeed. This is how it is supposed to work in all civilized countries with the rule of law. When a case is made up entirely of circumstantial evidence (which many are), the trier of fact is to assess each piece of circumstantial evidence for reliability and evidentiary value, if any, as against the accused. This is not even remotely close to requiring proof BARD with respect to each piece of evidence, as some PGP suggest. It is simply that they do not wish to understand the proper process for assessing pieces of evidence.

If any given piece of circumstantial evidence is unreliable or has no evidentiary value against the accused, then it should not be considered further when it ultimately comes time for the trier to fact to assess whether or not the totality of the pieces of reliable and probative evidence as a whole amount to proof BARD.

Hellmann nailed this, and his written judgment is the only one released yet in this case that passes juridical muster and demonstrates a proper appreciation of the law.

Moreover, circumstantial evidence is sufficient to warrant a conviction only when it is consistent with the conclusion that the criminal act was committed by the accused AND that the facts are such as to be inconsistent with any other rational conclusion other than that the accused in the guilty party. That is to say, the test for conviction based on circumstantial evidence is that the trier of fact must be satisfied BARD that the only rational inference that can be drawn by the circumstantial evidence is that the accused is guilty.

This has been the law for a long, long time here in Canada, and it is supposed to be law in Italy as well. The elements of an offence have to be established BARD, and while an element of an offence can be based on circumstantial evidence, that is only so when a trier of fact is satisfied BARD that the guilt of the accused is the only reasonable inference to be drawn from the proven facts. The proven facts are those that have survived scrutiny in the initial assessment of the evidence (for reliability and evidentiary value, etc., as noted above). Reliance on irrational or speculative evidence to support an inference of guilt is not appropriate, and cannot properly sustain a conviction.

It is reassuring to see that this is the process of judicial assessment followed in Canada. We use a different model in New Zealand. It is deemed unacceptable to not prosecute someone, so the police charge someone who has a connection to the victim, and fabricate evidence, and fool the people, the judges the juries and the politicians into believing their game each time.
Wrongfully, prosecuted at the very least are

Walter James Bolton, Hanged for the murder of his wife. Innocent and the murder was probably committed by his sister in law if it was murder at all.

Arthur Allan Thomas. Jailed for nine years for a double murder and exonerated.

David Tamihere Jailed for twenty years, still considered legally guilty, for a double murder committed by another man

Teina Pora Jailed for 22 years and exonerated

Scott Watson Jailed for 17 years, eligible for parole in june, which will be denied because he will refuse to express remorse for a double disappearance engineered by other parties.

Ewan MacDonald Miraculously acquitted for a murder committed by a gang. Many New Zealanders and the victim's wife remain convinced he is the killer.

Mark Lundy Jailed for 13 years, released for one year retried, convicted and jailed for a further 7 years. Parole will be denied because he will express no remorse for the murder of his wife and child committed by others.

Only in the case of Teina Pora is the known killer of the victim in jail.
In all others the killers are allowed to roam free if they are alive or not in jail, and the police have ceased investigating.

Of course they all represent gross violations of every principle LashL describes above. There is no reason to consider any of the above more guilty than Amanda Knox, and I have no doubt at all they would all have been acquitted by Hellmann, and indeed by those fine South African judges who understood the Pistorius and Dewani hoaxes.

 

[Dan O.]

Why is it that Meredith's friends talk about the men that Amanda brought home to the cottage but they don't talk about the handyman that Laura brought home that spent the night at the cottage? Is it perhaps that they were specifically being asked about Amanda because Amanda was already a suspect?

 

[Bill Williams]

CBC's The Fifth Estate is doing an hour on the Reid Technique of interrogations and false confessions. Chilling.

It's arguable that neither Sollecito nor Knox were exposed strictly to the Reid Technique specifically, but Donnino's intervention (the translator - mediator - diplomat) managed to implement parts of it. As did arguably the others.

 

[Kauffer]

This is ūber skeptical. She cannot have been asked in any detail about her own movements and activity on the night of the 1st because that would have made her, or those she was confiding in, smell a rat. We know the questions she was asked from the statement she gave and, in advance of their impending appearance here, I can tell you now there will be nothing about her said activity and nothing about her work with Patrick.

Wanna bet?

ETA it's not a précis either. It's her statement given in answer to questions. I have taken hundreds like it and watched the police take dozens more. It's not a verbatim transcript but it's not a condensation either. If I ask : 'what time did you go to bed?' and you answer '9.00 p.m.' I write down 'I went to bed at 9.00 p.m.' Not a précis, not verbatim but 100% accurate.

Well, this is covered in WTBH on pages 77/78. The four page document is a record of an interview, which lasted 6 hours, according to Amanda, so I don't know what filled the time, if not more detail than we see reproduced here. Also, the interview started in Italian, got nowhere very far for the first hour because of it, so they brought in a different, English speaking detective to do the next five.

There's no explanatory note. Indeed, the document reports that: "the person that is the subject named who understands and speaks quite well the Italian language, states..."(?). Furthermore, there are three detectives listed as present in the document, one of them Ficcara, who is writ large in Amanda's memory, yet she doesn't mention her being present. In fact, it would appear from Amanda's account that she was alone with the English speaking detective. There's doubt about accuracy, right there, I say.

We must also ask if the Italian portion of the interview was redone in English? Was the English part translated into Italian by the detective and retranslated back into English later or was it taken down in English by the detective and translated into Italian for others to read?

The thing to wait for, if we really want to get a handle on accuracy, is MichaelB putting up the 4th November interview. Will we see questions such as "Are you lying?", which we know Amanda was asked, together with her responses?

 

[Numbers]

Well, this is covered in WTBH on pages 77/78. The four page document is a record of an interview, which lasted 6 hours, according to Amanda, so I don't know what filled the time, if not more detail than we see reproduced here. Also, the interview started in Italian, got nowhere very far for the first hour because of it, so they brought in a different, English speaking detective to do the next five.

There's no explanatory note. Indeed, the document reports that: "the person that is the subject named who understands and speaks quite well the Italian language, states..."(?). Furthermore, there are three detectives listed as present in the document, one of them Ficcara, who is writ large in Amanda's memory, yet she doesn't mention her being present. In fact, it would appear from Amanda's account that she was alone with the English speaking detective. There's doubt about accuracy, right there, I say.

We must also ask if the Italian portion of the interview was redone in English? Was the English part translated into Italian by the detective and retranslated back into English later or was it taken down in English by the detective and translated into Italian for others to read?

The thing to wait for, if we really want to get a handle on accuracy, is MichaelB putting up the 4th November interview. Will we see questions such as "Are you lying?", which we know Amanda was asked, together with her responses?

Looking at the original Italian (that is, the case-file original as provided by the Italian authorities), the "quite well" may be better translated as "sufficiently" (a cognate, sufficientemente, is used in the original). The English provided on AmandaKnoxCase.com is a translation of the Italian document from the case file, and not the English that Amanda may have answered in. It is the same with the phone intercepts of Amanda and her parents: real original in English, case-file original an Italian translation, the AmandaKnoxCase.com a translation of the case-file original.

I too notice that the reports of the witness questioning is rather short. These reports are labeled in Italian as "Verbale di sommarie informazioni da persona informata sui fatti" (VSI) which, through the miracle of cognates, I would say means approximately: Summary of verbal information from a witness (= person informed of the facts).

So I may agree and yet disagree a bit with anglo; I think that only the information gained during the interview that the police wanted to record (perhaps because they thought important or suitable) was entered into the summary. The summary is, I believe, not at all a verbatim transcript of the interview (which would be longer and probably less structured, based on my minimal experience in depositions). I don't think there will be any threats or warnings in any of these VSIs.

 

[MichaelB]

AK statement to police November 3, 2007

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Knox-Statement-03-Nov-2007.pdf

 

[Kauffer]

Looking at the original Italian (that is, the case-file original as provided by the Italian authorities), the "quite well" may be better translated as "sufficiently" (a cognate, sufficientemente, is used in the original). The English provided on AmandaKnoxCase.com is a translation of the Italian document from the case file, and not the English that Amanda may have answered in. It is the same with the phone intercepts of Amanda and her parents: real original in English, case-file original an Italian translation, the AmandaKnoxCase.com a translation of the case-file original.

I too notice that the reports of the witness questioning is rather short. These reports are labeled in Italian as "Verbale di sommarie informazioni da persona informata sui fatti" (VSI) which, through the miracle of cognates, I would say means approximately: Summary of verbal information from a witness (= person informed of the facts).

So I may agree and yet disagree a bit with anglo; I think that only the information gained during the interview that the police wanted to record (perhaps because they thought important or suitable) was entered into the summary. The summary is, I believe, not at all a verbatim transcript of the interview (which would be longer and probably less structured, based on my minimal experience in depositions). I don't think there will be any threats or warnings in any of these VSIs.

This is good, but why should the document recite that Amanda speaks Italian "sufficiently" when they needed to bring in an English speaking detective? I find it bizarre that when English is spoken, it is translated into Italian and then translated back into English. Why are their two translations? The original English should be relied upon and the Italian translation checked for accuracy.

The importance of the subject matter in your last para is not whether the document is a verbatim account (even though the document calls itself a "transcript"), but whether it is a full and accurate record of everything Amanda said. You appear to think that it isn't. If so, I agree with you. Anglo does not, I think, agree with me.

 

[MichaelB]

One of the crazies on twitter has picked up on this from the November 2 statement:

When asked she responds: I would describe Meredith as a girl of 21 years old, English, about 1.70m tall, slim build, olive skinned, black hair, long and straight, brown eyes. I don’t think she had any particular defining marks such as tattoos or anything else. The last time I saw her she was wearing white jeans and a short jacket, lightweight, of a light color.--------------

It's hard to believe Amanda would confuse typical blue jeans that Meredith was wearing with white jeans.

 

[Grinder]

Another early Italian article - mention of broken window - wonder if reporters went to cottage?

THE WEAPON OF CRIME - is mystery on the murder weapon, it might be a knife or an awl and the reason of the murder (sexual assault or robbery, the bedroom where the girl lay dead was completely upside down and it is difficult to verify if missing or not personal). Experts of the central operating and group Ert have made ​​remarks on the window of the bedroom where it is assumed to be the murderess escaped, perhaps blood staining it. A handkerchief was found not far away along St. Anthony, and other tracks were also found on the windowsill that has a broken glass.

THE BROKEN GLASS - Just the particular broken glass had alarmed the men of the police post, who went in the house to talk to the English girl, found that an elderly owner of two mobile phones had found in his garden, always in via sant ' Antonio. In the house of the crime, the roommate American student killed had welcomed them; He knocked on the locked door of his room, telling them that he was still sleeping because not answer, but the agents who had already noticed the broken glass, they forced the door discovering the body. Just on those phones investigators are focusing, searching for traces in the last call, dialed and received, in sms, and also to trace the movements of Meredith that, say her friends, not abandoned them ever.


November 3, 2007

 

[Kauffer]

AK statement to police November 3, 2007

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Knox-Statement-03-Nov-2007.pdf

"To add to what was already reported yesterday at 15:30 in these offices, I would like to clarify that when I said I had checked the bedrooms of the girls and that they were all in order, I meant to say there was nothing apparently missing but not that there was nothing out of place. In fact, the strangest thing, other than the broken glass, inside Filomena’s bedroom was the fact that some of her clothes could be found on the floor.----------------------"

Sounds like the question or questions that produced this response was the product of a suspicious mind.

This account is only 2 pages long. How long was the interview on the 3rd?

Amanda says about this interview in WTBH, "I picked up on a change in the detective's tone from the night before. He was pushy, his questions repetitive"

Yet we have a different detective listed as present in this document, alongside Ficcarra, whom Amanda states she meets for the first time on this day, but not, actually as part of the interview. But she is also listed as present at the interview the day before.

 

[Grinder]

This is good, but why should the document recite that Amanda speaks Italian "sufficiently" when they needed to bring in an English speaking detective? I find it bizarre that when English is spoken, it is translated into Italian and then translated back into English. Why are their two translations? The original English should be relied upon and the Italian translation checked for accuracy.

The importance of the subject matter in your last para is not whether the document is a verbatim account (even though the document calls itself a "transcript"), but whether it is a full and accurate record of everything Amanda said. You appear to think that it isn't. If so, I agree with you. Anglo does not, I think, agree with me.

One of the crazies on twitter has picked up on this from the November 2 statement:

It's hard to believe Amanda would confuse typical blue jeans that Meredith was wearing with white jeans.

The language is not Amanda's IMO. This looks to be like something summed up by the cops in Italian and translated to English.

I don't trust these as being complete hence my desire to see the other 50 49 hours.

 

[MichaelB]

There's another one in the November 2 one:

page 1

This morning, around 10:00 – 11:00, I went to my house on my own to take a shower and get changed and in that circumstance I noticed that the front door of the apartment was wide open
from page 3

Once back home, around 13:00, I opened the front door, that I found again was locked,

 

[Grinder]

In my article search this popped up on the 11/3.

The protagonist is a brilliant pediatric neurosurgeon, Sergio Giansanti ( Enzo Decaro ), as well as having a 'good reputation as a physician is also estimated in the city in which he lives, Perugia, with his wife Claudia ( Anna Kanakis ) and two daughters. The idyll is interrupted when he makes his appearance in the quiet town a ruthless serial killer, nicknamed "Bracciodiferro", who, after killing his victims, it guts the body with surgical precision. As soon, however, leaves the murderess too many clues at the crime scene, the suspects immediately fall on the doctor, which is obviously innocent. To try to frame him is not only the police but also the fierce local journalist Lidia Roccella (Foia), driven by higher Guido Salimbeni ( Marco Falaguasta ), which in this way provides greater freedom in the investigation, but gave in fed to the media an innocent person.