Continuation Part 15: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Numbers]

This is good, but why should the document recite that Amanda speaks Italian "sufficiently" when they needed to bring in an English speaking detective? I find it bizarre that when English is spoken, it is translated into Italian and then translated back into English. Why are their two translations? The original English should be relied upon and the Italian translation checked for accuracy.

The importance of the subject matter in your last para is not whether the document is a verbatim account (even though the document calls itself a "transcript"), but whether it is a full and accurate record of everything Amanda said. You appear to think that it isn't. If so, I agree with you. Anglo does not, I think, agree with me.

I find your statements puzzling, which suggests that my explanation was not sufficient. The police were lying or exaggerating (IMO) about Amanda's ability to speak Italian, therefore they called her ability "sufficient". But I believe Amanda was trying to communicate as much in Italian as she could. But the presence of an interpreter is indicated.

Whatever language witnesses used or phone-tapped conversations were in, they were of course translated into Italian for the benefit of the Italian police, who of course speak Italian, and for the judicial proceedings, which by procedural law are conducted in Italian.

I don't know if the real originals in English are available to the public, and I'm not sure how these Italian language transcripts from the case-file are reaching the public. I don't know if copies of case-file documents including the "real originals" of English language documents may be purchased, especially now that the final CSC decision has been reached.

By verbatim, I did mean a word-for-word complete and accurate record, not simply an accurate record of excerpts of interest to the police. I speculate that the police keep a separate set of more complete notes or even an electronic recording of witness statements. I would if I were a cop investigating a felony. I believe the VSI is composed of excerpts of the interview, but of course I can't say what, if anything, has been left out.

ETA: The English translations of the case-file original Italian documents are being done by volunteers at IIP. They were not supplied by the Italian authorities. I don't know if the "real original" answers given by Amanda or other English speakers were written down in English by an interpreter, or immediately translated into Italian. The seeming errors ("white" jeans? possible, not likely) could be due to the interpreter.

 

[davefoc]

There's another one in the November 2 one:

page 1

This morning, around 10:00 – 11:00, I went to my house on my own to take a shower and get changed and in that circumstance I noticed that the front door of the apartment was wide open
from page 3

Once back home, around 13:00, I opened the front door, that I found again was locked,

This seems a little interesting. Wouldn't AK have locked the door on her way out? Wouldn't she have expected it to be locked when she got back? Is this a translation error? Is this an error in what was reported? Perhaps I'm just reading too much in to "found again was locked". Maybe it just means that she found the door locked as she would have expected.

Maybe I have a fundamental misunderstanding of MicahealB's post.

 

[Grinder]

This seems a little interesting. Wouldn't AK have locked the door on her way out? Wouldn't she have expected it to be locked when she got back? Is this a translation error? Is this an error in what was reported? Perhaps I'm just reading too much in to "found again was locked". Maybe it just means that she found the door locked as she would have expected.

Maybe I have a fundamental misunderstanding of MicahealB's post.

I think you get it. I believe he is questioning the accuracy of the police work.

 

[MichaelB]

Here's what Fabio D’Astolto had to say:

GM: So you arrive at the Station and then what happens?
FDA: I arrive at the Station, I go into the Inspector’s office, I go in, I sit down beside the Inspector and I begin, in quotes, to translate what they were asking me and then I was referring, that is I was re-translating the words of the signorina.
GM: You’d spent…
FDA: This was my job. Miss Amanda.
GM: You’d spent how many hours at the Station?
FDA: A lot, up until around seven in the morning, more or less.
GM: You had in practice carried out the functions of an interpreter?
FDA: Yes, simply translating what was asked and then the reply.
GM: By Amanda Knox
FDA: Yes.

[....]

GM: You heard her first at the beginning, that is you’d translated the questions and the answers.
FDA: I had simply translated the questions that the Inspector had asked and then I’d referred obviously to Amanda, always asking her: “you’ve understood?” and then as Amanda was giving me the reply I simply retranslated for the Inspector.
GM: She was demonstrating an ability to in part understand Italian?
FDA: Yes, yes, she was understanding also because I more than once had asked her “Have you understood? Do I need to repeat the question?”, so.

[....]

LG: I’m a step before that, you have said: “for me it could have been an accidental death”, yet you say: “once I arrived at the Station I was informed about something”, is that so? Relating to the death of the girl.
FDA: Now then after ten minutes or so, twenty minutes, I don’t remember perfectly now, obviously I tried to understand what might have happened, but I was aware that there had been a decease, but I was unaware for what reason.
LG: A couple of questions on the modality of exercising the interpretative activity.
FDA: Yes.
LG: So you get to be called because you know English, you’ve said, and it couldn’t have been anyone else but, who was translating Inspector Ficcara’s questions.
FDA: Yes.
LG: Therefore questions in Italian translated into English for Amanda Knox, Amanda was replying and you were translating into Italian the replies given in English?FDA: Yes.
LG: Is that so?
FDA: Yes.
LG: You were translating the questions and you were translating the answers?
FDA: Exactly.

[....]

LG: In the first three pages of the statement of the 2nd, which is in the case file, I don’t see one question, can you explain why?
FDA: By question is meant, obviously in the moment in which we were taking the summaries [the SIs] it needed a second to say: “What do you call…”
LG: No, no, no, excuse me for interrupting, you’re going ahead. I don’t see one question asked by Inspector Ficcara and translated by you, how come?
GCM: Counsel is asking, in the statement you had said…
LG: Not the personal details or the address.
GCM: You’ve said that you were translating the questions that were being put to Amanda Knox, but Counsel is saying: “I can’t find the questions in the statement”.
FDA: In the moment in which I was being asked to translate what it was called, where it was obviously needed to formalise the summaries.
GCM: Yes, but at the moment of the exposition of the facts, who was transcribing it into the record?
FDA: The Inspector.
GCM: You were translating into Italian and into English?
FDA: Yes.
LG: Then he doesn’t remember, he doesn’t know why the questions were not translated.
MC: But translated or transcribed?
LG: Listen, in the first three pages there isn’t…
GCM: Counsel it’s clear.
LG: It was only to understand the modality and that’s it.
GCM: Do you know how come the questions weren’t also put into the record?
LG: When he says: “I was translating the questions”, he’s not saying something true because the questions aren’t there.
GCM: Excuse me, Counsel, please! Why aren’t the questions you say you were translating also reported in the record, if you know.FDA: I don’t know.LG: And the last three are: “RTQ – replies to question”, here as well do you know why?FDA: I don’t know.

 

[Numbers]

.... But the presence of an interpreter is indicated.

.... The seeming errors ("white" jeans? possible, not likely) could be due to the interpreter.

There is no interpreter named as such for Amanda's Nov. 2 VSI, but there is one (Marco Bellanco) for the Nov. 3 VSI and a different one (Aida Colantone) for the Nov. 4 VSI.

ETA: Thanks to MichaelB's post, I can state that the interpreter on Nov. 2 was listed simply as one of the police officers, Fabio D'Astolto.

ETA2: Checking a few of the VSIs for the English women, Purton and Power, there are also no questions listed in those summaries.

ETA3: The officers listed as present should be regarded as the "official" police witnesses to the interview. There could have been others present in the interview who were not listed.

 

[Grinder]

Here is another article from the 7th with a full report of the "statement" and Raf's changing stories. I have never understood why these would be released immediately.

Esplora il significato del termine: Perugia, the truth of Amanda:
she was with Patrick and shouting
Perugia, the truth of Amanda:
she was with Patrick and shouting
"I was scared and I covered my ears'

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PERUGIA - "Patrick and Meredith are secluded in Meredith's room, while I think that I was in the kitchen. I can not remember how long they were together in the room but I can only say that at one point I heard Meredith screaming I scared and I covered my ears. Then do not remember anything, I have a great deal of confusion in the head. I do not remember if Meredith screaming and I felt even if thuds because I was upset, but imagine what could have happened. "

It is dawn yesterday. Amanda Knox, the American friend of Meredith that she shared with the apartment, said he had witnessed the murder. Cede challenged by police officers who accuse her of lying when he reported that he left home at 17, November 1 and to be back only the next morning, when it was found the mangled body of Meredith. Her boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito was heard a few hours earlier and has already admitted that alibi is false, but denies having participated in the crime. Amanda understands not to have no way out, however, carves out a marginal role. Accusing Patrick Lumumba Diya to be the murderess. His story is confused, she understands that she does not tell the whole truth. But the prosecutor believes that his statements are in any case sufficient to sign the detention order also against the two men.


The "do not remember" Amanda

The story of the young American begins at 5.45 yesterday morning. "I want to report what happened spontaneously because this matter has troubled me deeply and I am very afraid of Patrick, the African boy owner of the pub Le Chic where I work occasionally. I met him on the evening of Nov. 1 after he sent a reply message to her, with the words "see you". We met at around 21 to the basketball court square Grimana and we went to my house. I do not remember if my friend Meredith was already home or if you come after. What I can say is that you are secluded. " Goes into detail, it describes the moment of violence. He adds: "I met Patrick this morning (November 5th ed) in front of the University for Foreigners and made ​​me some questions. He wanted to know what questions I had been made ​​by the police. I think I have even asked if I wanted to meet with journalists, perhaps in order to understand if I knew anything of the death of Meredith. " Then she speaks of her boyfriend: "I'm not sure if it was also Raffaele that evening, but I remember waking up to my boyfriend's house, in his bed, and that I'm back in the morning in my home where I found the door open." The policemen of the squad and the SCO, the central operating acknowledge at the end of the minutes that "the Knox brings her hands repeatedly in the head and shakes it." He writes pm in detention: "The sexual relationship between Meredith and Patrick must be considered of a violent nature, given the context in which particularly intimidating took place and in which the Knox must be considered nonetheless gave a contribution to Diya."



Lies boyfriend

The phone records examined by the postal police have been fundamental to reconstruct the movements of the boys. And to deny what had hitherto claimed. The first to admit that he had "told a lot of crap" is Sollecito. The young man was summoned to the police station at 22.40 on 5 November, two nights ago. After the discovery of the body of Meredith had already been interrogated, but he did not know what had happened: "I was out with Amanda," he was justified. Now he understands that the situation has changed. And so he decides to modify its own version. The minutes of Raffaele Sollecito begins at 22.40 on Tuesday. "I've known Amanda for two weeks. Since the night I met her she began to sleep at my house. On November I woke up at 11, I had breakfast with Amanda, then she went out and I went back to bed. I caught up to her house to the 13-14. There was also that Meredith went out hastily to the 16 without saying where he was going. Amanda and I went into town at 18 but can not remember what we did. We were in the center up to 20.30 to 21 or 21. I went alone to my house, but Amanda said she would go to the pub Le Chic because she wanted to meet his friends. At this point we said goodbye. I went home, I got high, I had dinner, but do not remember what I ate. At about 23, he called me on the user fixed home my father. I remember that Amanda had not yet returned. I sailed on the computer for another two hours after the call from my father and I stopped only when Amanda came back, presumably towards the 1. I forget how it was dressed and it was dressed in the same way when we said goodbye before dinner. I do not remember if we consumed that evening sex. The next morning we woke up around 10 and she told me she wanted to go home to shower and change clothes. It came out at about 10.30 and I went back to sleep. When she left Amanda also took an empty envelope, saying she needed to put the dirty clothes. At about 11:30 he returned home and I remember that he had changed his clothes. He was carrying the usual bag. " It is at this point that, according to Sollecito, Amanda told him to be worried. "He told me - says the young - that when she arrived at her house she found the front door wide open and traces of blood in the small bathroom. He asked if it seemed strange. I answered yes and I advised her to call her friends. She said he had phoned Filomena (another girl who lives in the house of the murder ed), while said that Meredith did not answer. "

The return home

The two go together in the apartment. And so I urge he reconstructs those moments: "She opened the door with the keys and I entered. I noticed that the door was wide open with Filomena of glass on the floor and the room a mess. Amanda's door was open, and instead it was all in order. Then I went to the door of Meredith and saw that it was locked. First I looked to see if it was true what I had said Amanda on the blood in the bathroom and noticed drops of blood on the sink, while on the mat there was something strange, a sort of mixed water and blood, while the rest of the bathroom was clean .... The rest was in order. Just then Amanda came into the bathroom and came out big scared and hugged me and said that strong before, when he took a shower, he saw that instead of stool in the toilet was now clean. I wondered what was going on and went out to see if I could climb on the window of Meredith ... I tried to break the door but I did not succeed at that point I decided to call my sister and I have recommended to her because It is a lieutenant of the police. He told me to call 112, but in the meantime came the police post. In the previous report I have told a lot of crap because she had convinced me of his version of events and did not think the inconsistencies. "

Fiorenza Sarzanini November 7, 2007

 

[JREF2010]

One of the crazies on twitter has picked up on this from the November 2 statement:



It's hard to believe Amanda would confuse typical blue jeans that Meredith was wearing with white jeans.

I dont.
I cant even recall what pants I wore last week ....

Ive been around kids in their 20's for years and they are more flighty and careless than I am. Stoners even worse on details.

Theres always been a lot of older people clamming on and on about how they were lying or hiding something because of the tiny miniscule details about so much in this case, cell phone calls etc....

who can recite 68 phone calls in a few days? let alone recite the correct order and then recite perfectly every word to match the recordings?

its unbelievable this expectation to recall details and then add the fact of being 20yr olds and students and partying etc...

Meredith walking around with the previous nights halloween face paint was more like it, a chaotic cottage of people coming and going and smoking pot and partying and sleeping in late is not the same life as a 60yr olod man that gets 4 cell calls a week and can recall which of the two things he did that month in great detail.

 

[Grinder]

These early stories are really important for understanding how things came together.

Some of the unanswered questions:
• Why did police take such liberties in announcing so quickly that Meredith had been the innocent victim of a 'sexual attack' seemingly involving those in custody?
• Why have police not yet interviewed Lumumba even though Knox has essentially accused him of murder and their own theories implicate him in a 'violent sexual attack'?
• Was Knox in the house while Meredith was being murdered, and if so what did she do afterwards?
• If Knox was 'terrified' of Lumumba, as she claimed, why did she bring him back to her house?
• Was Sollecito in the house while Meredith was being murdered or not?
• Sollecito has said he had only known Knox for two weeks. How far was he willing to go to protect her?
• Knox has admitted that she and Lumumba at least were 'drunk'. Are the conflicting stories and confusion the result of a night blurred by alcohol, or something more?
• Where were Meredith's two other housemates that night?
• Meredith's door was locked from the inside, yet blood was found in the bathroom, suggesting the killer had left the room at one point from inside the house and attempted to clean his or her self off. Who locked the door and how did they leave the room after?
Documents due to be presented at the 11am hearing at the Capanne prison, 15 miles from Perugia, include a police note that Knox has displayed an "unscrupulous tendency to lie constantly to investigators".
The hearing in front of judge Claudia Matteini will decide whether the three should continue to be held in custody on suspicion of murder and participating in violent sex.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-brought-strange-men-house.html#ixzz3aSjoKcmV
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

[Samzilla]

CBC's The Fifth Estate is doing an hour on the Reid Technique of interrogations and false confessions. Chilling.

It's arguable that neither Sollecito nor Knox were exposed strictly to the Reid Technique specifically, but Donnino's intervention (the translator - mediator - diplomat) managed to implement parts of it. As did arguably the others.

The Fifth Estate has done lots of good work on wrongful convictions and the Reid technique. Here's an episode they did on Eric "Action" Morgan. Chilling stuff, and it makes me sad that it happened in Canada.

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/episodes/2014-2015/the-interrogation-room

 

[anglolawyer]

I read it and it doesn't cover more than 5 minutes of answers. She discussed Le Chic and most likely Patrick's name came up.

Did she sign this one?

The agency question was an attempt for you to realize we are talking about the Perugian LE. They don't do too good of a job.

Can't wait for the remaining 50 hours.

It will have taken far longer than 5 minutes to take that statement. What are you suggesting, that this is an edited version of a much longer document? What's missing and why?

 

[Bill Williams]

These early stories are really important for understanding how things came together.

Some of the unanswered questions:
• Why did police take such liberties in announcing so quickly that Meredith had been the innocent victim of a 'sexual attack' seemingly involving those in custody?
• Why have police not yet interviewed Lumumba even though Knox has essentially accused him of murder and their own theories implicate him in a 'violent sexual attack'?
• Was Knox in the house while Meredith was being murdered, and if so what did she do afterwards?
• If Knox was 'terrified' of Lumumba, as she claimed, why did she bring him back to her house?
• Was Sollecito in the house while Meredith was being murdered or not?
• Sollecito has said he had only known Knox for two weeks. How far was he willing to go to protect her?
• Knox has admitted that she and Lumumba at least were 'drunk'. Are the conflicting stories and confusion the result of a night blurred by alcohol, or something more?
• Where were Meredith's two other housemates that night?
• Meredith's door was locked from the inside, yet blood was found in the bathroom, suggesting the killer had left the room at one point from inside the house and attempted to clean his or her self off. Who locked the door and how did they leave the room after?
Documents due to be presented at the 11am hearing at the Capanne prison, 15 miles from Perugia, include a police note that Knox has displayed an "unscrupulous tendency to lie constantly to investigators".
The hearing in front of judge Claudia Matteini will decide whether the three should continue to be held in custody on suspicion of murder and participating in violent sex.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-brought-strange-men-house.html#ixzz3aSjoKcmV
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

I beg to differ. These early "stories" add nothing. It's the Daily Mail for mercy's sake!!!

 

[Grinder]

I beg to differ. These early "stories" add nothing. It's the Daily Mail for mercy's sake!!!

Did you bother to read the snip or the whole story? This article if nothing else gives an idea of what had been released immediately. It gives an idea of what Rudi was reading - not so much the mail but the Italian equivalent.

This article is not PG slanted.

 

[Grinder]

It will have taken far longer than 5 minutes to take that statement. What are you suggesting, that this is an edited version of a much longer document? What's missing and why?

Yes. I would think we would have many more pages if a near transcription was taken. Where are the questions? These did not read like how Amanda expressed herself. They do not reflect how Amanda talked.

They read like an executive summary.

 

[anglolawyer]

Yes. I would think we would have many more pages if a near transcription was taken. Where are the questions? These did not read like how Amanda expressed herself. They do not reflect how Amanda talked.

They read like an executive summary.

I explained upthread how a statement that ends up looking like this is taken. It looks perfectly normal to me and the kind of imprecision Davefoc was discussing about the front door is nothing out of the ordinary.

The questions are in the answers.

And btw. other investigators reviewing the evidence would not want to be confronted with a fifty page Q and A with all its stumbling, backtracking, clarification, error and confusion. This is exactly what you want.

No taker on my Le Chic bet, huh?

 

[Antony]

One of the crazies on twitter has picked up on this from the November 2 statement:

When asked she responds: I would describe Meredith as a girl of 21 years old, English, about 1.70m tall, slim build, olive skinned, black hair, long and straight, brown eyes. I don’t think she had any particular defining marks such as tattoos or anything else. The last time I saw her she was wearing white jeans and a short jacket, lightweight, of a light color.--------------

It's hard to believe Amanda would confuse typical blue jeans that Meredith was wearing with white jeans.

1.70m tall? That's 5' 7". I don't think that's right, either.

 

[Numbers]

Yes. I would think we would have many more pages if a near transcription was taken. Where are the questions? These did not read like how Amanda expressed herself. They do not reflect how Amanda talked.

They read like an executive summary.

The questions were not presented, as far as I can tell, in any of the VSIs from any of the witnesses or future defendants. As anglo states, this appears to be a standard procedure - the questions are incorporated into the answers.

The actual Italian text is not a simple reproduction of anyone's actual speech, and certainly not of the English speakers. For the English speakers, the procedure was for an interpreter to translate the police question from Italian to English and the answer from English to Italian, all in spoken language. Another Italian police officer wrote down the interpreter's Italian version of the answers. These may well have been edited for clarity and relevance according to police understanding, although the final typed result is read (or read to in translation) and signed by the witness (including the future defendant, Amanda Knox). The Italian title of the document indicates it is summary information of an investigative questioning (an interview) of a witness.

ETA: See the spoiler in MichaelB's post 2364.

 

[Numbers]

1.70m tall? That's 5' 7". I don't think that's right, either.

Yes. But the problem is the units and the resolution - a difference of 0.1m is a lot for a person's height. 1.7m=5'7'' approx, while 1.6m=5'3'' approx. I'm guessing that Meredith was closer to 1.6m tall.

To give heights appropriately in metric, they should be stated in centimeters (that is, meters resolved or to a precision of 2 decimal places).

 

[MichaelB]

A correction was made to the November 2 statement.

page 3 in the original Italian says: "che ho ritrovato chiusa a chiave"

That was translated by mistake as: "that I found again was locked"

It's been corrected to: "that I found was still locked"

 

[Strozzi]

Well, this is covered in WTBH on pages 77/78. The four page document is a record of an interview, which lasted 6 hours, according to Amanda, so I don't know what filled the time, if not more detail than we see reproduced here. Also, the interview started in Italian, got nowhere very far for the first hour because of it, so they brought in a different, English speaking detective to do the next five.
There's no explanatory note. Indeed, the document reports that: "the person that is the subject named who understands and speaks quite well the Italian language, states..."(?). Furthermore, there are three detectives listed as present in the document, one of them Ficcara, who is writ large in Amanda's memory, yet she doesn't mention her being present. In fact, it would appear from Amanda's account that she was alone with the English speaking detective. There's doubt about accuracy, right there, I say.

We must also ask if the Italian portion of the interview was redone in English? Was the English part translated into Italian by the detective and retranslated back into English later or was it taken down in English by the detective and translated into Italian for others to read?

The thing to wait for, if we really want to get a handle on accuracy, is MichaelB putting up the 4th November interview. Will we see questions such as "Are you lying?", which we know Amanda was asked, together with her responses?

Would someone who maintains a timeline please clarify when Amanda's interrogation began, when Donnino was called at home, and when she actually arrived at police headquarters? I have maintained in my comments that Donino arrived about 1 am, two hours after the interrogation started.

It is my understanding that Amanda's interrogation began about 11 pm, that Donnino said she received a call just before midnight that there were developments in the case with Amanda and would she please come in, that Donnino was undressed when she received the call but not yet in bed and had to get dressed, and that she lives in the countryside about a 50 minute drive from police headquarters.

I also contend that when Donnino arrived at police headquarters and entered the building, that she would not have walked directly to the interrogation room where Amanda was being interrogated. She almost certainly would have checked in with someone to be briefed on what was going on and what role she was to play and how to play it. She most likely went to the control room where Giobbi was. Giobbi said Police Chief de Felice was with him there for some of the time.

 

[Bill Williams]

I beg to differ. These early "stories" add nothing. It's the Daily Mail for mercy's sake!!!

Did you bother to read the snip or the whole story? This article if nothing else gives an idea of what had been released immediately. It gives an idea of what Rudi was reading - not so much the mail but the Italian equivalent.

This article is not PG slanted.

Seriously!? Dude: John Follain is a suspect source, but now the Daily Mail deserves a mention?

It's hard not to go for laughs here. Suffice it to say that if it has come to this, then this case really was terminated on March 27, 2015. And suffice it to say that there really is nothing to talk about until the Marasca motivations report comes out.