RoseMontague
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Continuation Part 15: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito
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I see, you expect us to just take your word on this sort of dream-weaving proffered as facts. Well, you've established an exceedingly low credit score here, so you'll need to abandon hope of that.
anglolawyer
Banned
Vixen, have you a source, other than TJMK, for the claim that Amanda first noticed (or claimed to have noticed - since she is a liar in your reconstruction) the chaos in Filomena's room on her earlier shower visit?
If you do and it's any good, I will switch to pro-guilt.
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
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Hmmm. That looks to me like you just committed a logical fallacy
You shifted the goalposts, unfortunately. The question was whether Knox informed Romanelli. She did so. You had claimed she did not (while you instead claimed that she "happened to mention" it, and that this was somehow different from informing her).
But now you seem to want to shift the argument away from that area, into whether Knox should have done more besides informing Romanelli. Intellectually dishonest, I'm afraid. Try again.
Bill Williams
Penultimate Amazing
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Vixen said:
It really is hard to keep up with the B.S. in the posts. So here's one, as the other randomly-generated factoids Vixen is spinning have been dealt with by others:
It's been pointed out to Vixen repeatedly, by Kauffer and others, that Amanda's "frantic behaviour", did not arise at her first visit to the cottage, at 10:30 am. Amanda was confused by the state of the cottage, as was everyone else who first spied it, including the postal police when they arrived (cf. Massei's chronology) just before 1 pm.
Amanda went to try to see if she could see into Meredith's room at her second visit, with Raffaele in tow.
It's hard to know how to respond to Vixen when she's playing from a different deck of cards. First of all - the statement above, "her claim she was frantically worried about Mez, isn't borne out by her behaviour," is simply untrue, because Vixen has the frantic behaviour beginning at 10:30 am and continuing past 1 pm until Meredith was found.
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
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Testimony [excerpt]Transcript of testimony given in the hearing of 13 March 2009, pp 46-67
Depositions of the witness Daniele Moscatelli
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Q: Superintendent, you on the 7th November participated in the seizure of Meredith’s computer and of the clothing that was found in the washing machine?
A: Yes, of the clothing that was in the washing machine.
Q: On that occasion was a search also done or only…
A: No, no, I on instruction went to the bathroom, the first bathroom on the right of the house, always wearing gloves and shoe-covers, I went there and took the clothing indicated by Ms Filomena Romanelli, inside the washing machine and I brought them to the office.
Q: Can you describe the course of events, who were you with and what you did?
A: I entered into the house, I put on the gloves and the shoe-covers…
Q: First of all you had removed the seals?
A: I didn’t remove them personally, with me there was Deputy Commissioner Profazio and Deputy Commissioner Giobbi.
Q: So there were three of you?
A: There were four of us, if I’m not mistaken, there was also Superintendent Gentili from my office.
Q: Go on.
A: We entered, I went to the first bathroom on the right with gloves and shoe-covers on, we opened the washing machine, I picked up the clothing with my gloves, put them inside a bag and we took them to the Flying Squad offices.
Q: You said “I went and we opened”, you mean ‘we went’?
A: I and Superintendent Gentili went into the bathroom.
Q: And these clothes, where were they put?
A: In a bag, a big bag.
Q: And this bag, where was it taken from?
A: The bag?
Q: This bag, where did it come from?
A: From the Flying Squad offices.
Q: What type of bag was it?
A: A black bag, so that then the clothing amongst other things had been centrifuged and washed, so we put all precautions in place. Then I remember that in the Flying Squad offices they were subdivided according to whether Miss Romanelli recognised them as hers or as belonging to the victim or other occupants of the house.
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Rudy's and Giacomo's (Bendetti [sp_?]) Skype conversation (excerpt)
On that same conversation Guede reads a paragraph to Giacomo from a media article mentioning the laundry, the break-in and the undressing of the victim, Meredith.
Guede says “If all this really happened, it must have been done by Amanda or Raffaele… they have done it”. Giacomo asks “Why would they have done this”? And Guede replies “Because when I left she [Meredith] was dressed”.
Giacomo says “So they killed her while she was dressed”. And Guede says: “Yes, here it says that they [clothes] were washed in the washing machine, but that’s not true. She was dressed”. And then he explains to Giacomo how she was dressed and adds: “That means that they have washed them [Meredith’s clothes]”.
Then Giacomo asks “But why did they wash her clothes if she [Amanda] has nothing to do with this”, and Guede replies “What the hell do I know”. And finally Guede adds: “ … then after, from what I read, someone came back, because when I left the window was not broken. That means that someone broke it, and it wasn’t me”.
Again, here we have Rudy Guede mentioning Amanda and Raffaele. Why would he mention their names, and assume that they staged the break-in, undressed the victim, and did some laundry?
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Knox police interview 17.12.2007
Knox: Between my bed and the wardrobe there is a heap of dirty clothes… there is a little space between the two and I usually put the dirty clothes there, behind the guitar… the guitar is not mine… the guitar is Laura’s..
Interpreter: So she put the [plastic] bag between the bed and the wardrobe, there is a space where she placed the guitar her friend has lent her
[50]
Knox: Not the bag, just the clothes
Interpreter: And she placed the clothes, without the [plastic] bag, behind the guitar
PM Mignini: Why didn’t you put them into the washing machine?
Knox: Because I put all the dirty clothes in the same place, and when I’m ready to do a washing I put all the clothes in the washing machine
Interpreter: Because she was waiting to have some more to do a whole washing
PM Mignini: The bathmat, where did you… where did you take it after?
Knox: Once I finished using it to go and to come back from my room, I put it in the bathroom again
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Testimony 6th and 7th Feb 2007 (Not all the police testimony has been translated into English. However, Italian-speaking reporters reported back, as follows):
The communication police seem to have found Knox and Sollecito embarrassed and surprised when they arrived, and they were apparently encountered with a bucket and a mop.
Sollecito’s claim to have already called the Carabinieri to come to the house when the communication police officers arrived seems to have been misleading.
The communication police noticed that there was a washing machine in operation and they could hear the noise of the centrifuge. Soon after, the mobile-squad police found that the machine had finished its work a few minutes earlier, and the clothes were still warm.
Filomena testified that the washing machine was still warm when she returned to the cottage and that it contained some of Meredith’s clothes.
Filomena said of Knox “She told me: ‘It’s very odd. I’ve just come back to the house and the door is open. I had a shower but there’s blood everywhere. I’m going to get Raff. Meredith is nowhere to be seen. Oh God, maybe something’s happened to her, something tragic’.”
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But of course, you already knew that.
RoseMontague
Published Author
Completely false, absolute lies. The rest of your post has nothing to do with the topic.
But of course, you already knew that.
Katody Matrass
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I asked you to just quote statements from Filomena saying the washing machine was warm and the postal police saying it was running.Please don't repost the same unsourced fantasy, it's pointless. Just go check the testimony, it is available. It really will be an eye opener for you.
Don't get me wrong but if you rely on fantasies and lies instead of the trial transcripts and case file you will get a false view of the case.
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
Res ipsa loquitor, in Raf's and Amanda's own words:
PM Mignini: Were the bedroom doors open or closed?
Knox: No they were all closed… Filomena’s door was closed, Meredith’s was closed and Laura’s I think it was slightly ajar
13.10.2014 Yummi, Catnip, Kristeva TJMK
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Raffaele Sollecito diary from prison 7 Nov 2007
TRANSLATION
“those moments I remember very well as I was alarmed and agitated .... as a first thing I noticed the door of Filomena’s (aka Molly) room was wide open. Ah, i was forgetting Amanda opened with the keys (they asked me repeatedly as she said she had found the cottage door wide open when she had come in) .... we were saying that Filomena’s room was in a complete mess: broken glass on the floor and the room in a great, absurd, mess. The window was broken on the left side and was open”
ORIGINAL
http://qn.quotidiano.net/cronaca/2007/12/08/53233-amanda_meredith.shtml
“Quei momenti li ricordo bene perché ero agitato e allarmato….Per prima cosa ho notato che la camera di Filomena (chiamata Molli) aveva la porta spalancata. Ah, dimenticavo, Amanda ha aperto la casa con le chiavi (cosa che mi hanno ripetutamente chiesto visto che lei mi aveva detto che aveva trovato la porta di ingresso spalancata quando era entrata). Dicevamo che la camera di Filomena era completamente in disordine: vetri rotti per terra e la camera sottosopra, c’era un casino assurdo. La finestra era rotta sul lato sinistro ed era aperta. ”
Source: Popper, TJMK 14.12.13
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So, there we have it.
As the break in was staged, as confirmed by the police, the perp/s who staged it are not going to readily reveal the fact, as the staging is intended for the police IMV.
Amanda rings Filomena forewarning her something is up, but wants Filomena to find out for herself, to deflect attention away from the messenger.
Otherwise, why not ring the police immediately on seeing it.
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
Please don't repost the same unsourced fantasy, it's pointless. Just go check the testimony, it is available. It really will be an eye opener for you.
Don't get me wrong but if you rely on fantasies and lies instead of the trial transcripts and case file you will get a false view of the case.
Are you really going to deny reality?
Try this, from the GUARDIAN.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/feb/08/kercher-trial-knox
Bill Williams
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The break-in staging was "confirmed by the police"?
Yet another random factoid from the generator. Can you point to the forensic evidence that "confirms" this?
Katody Matrass
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Please, I can't take it anymore. I'm not denying there are a lot of lies and distortions on the net that you believe uncritically.
Just show me that quote in Filomena's testimony. Looking for it will be a valuable lesson for you, I promise.
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
Has it occurred to you that your own sources are pulling the wool over your eyes, leaving out anything that might incriminate Amanda and Raf?
The washing machine might be relevant, it might not be. However, it is no good denying it, just because you do not like it.
Katody Matrass
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My source is the case file.
Are you suggesting that the trial transcripts and Massei report available online are all redacted to conceal the fact that the washing machine was running? I'm ready to consider this if you develop this idea a bit more
You must be joking. If there was such evidence it would be a very strong indication of guilt. A little bit of critical thinking would tell you that.
anglolawyer
Banned
You could do a better job of expressing yourself. What you are trying to say is that Raffaele's recollection of Filomena's door being open falsifies Amanda's claim that it was closed and that if it had been open when she returned for her shower, she would have noticed the mess in the room and alerted Filomena - if there were a shred of truth in her story.
We have had this lousy, rotten, stinking guilter point before. It's worthless and only evidences the acute fragility of the guilter brain.
Kauffer
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Romanelli didn't ask that question. She didn't ask it, because the arrival of the police did not coincide with the discovery of the break in. Amanda told Romanelli about the break in at the earliest opportunity, which happened to be when Romanelli called her, almost immediately after the discovery. This is perfectly in accordance with fixed points on the timeline established by all the telephone calls, the time taken to walk to the cottage from Raffaele's and the time taken to investigate.
It is quite bizarre that you are still unable to grasp the obvious. Nobody knew that Amanda had visited the cottage for the first time, until she announced the fact immediately after she left. And nobody would have known, if she hadn't called anybody. If Amanda was responsible for the murder, she would have said nothing, made no calls, made no reports of strange things. But she did make these calls, raising the alert that something was not as it should be at the cottage with Romanelli.
Separately (and I do not know how many times this needs to be explained to you), the break-in was NOT discovered by Amanda until her second visit, so the premise of the question you think that "anyone" would ask (anyone apparently except Romanelli, who was part of this but didn't ask it), is entirely wrong.
Get your facts straight.
Kauffer
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This is complete idiocy on your part. Amanda reported her findings from her first visit to the cottage to Romanelli immediately after she left. She shared the information. What's your explanation for this? That Amanda, guilty as charged was so arrogant that she decided to leave blood evidence in the bathroom and then alert Romanelli to the fact? Your arguments are increasingly vacuous and rely on no factual basis for their substance. I thought another of your arguments was that she spent hours cleaning up the crime scene. So why does she do that and leave behind evidence she knows is there that is easily dealt with? The blood in the bathroom, the bathmat? Why weren't they disappeared?
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anglolawyer
Banned
Chyming in again: Vixen (like other guilters) argues both that there was a meticulous clean up and that there were selective omissions. The latter were deliberately left as subtle warnings to co-participants to keep schtum. Only a mind like PQ's can conjure up such bollocks. That he has adherents is not less staggering.
Essentially, they made it look exactly as though they weren't involved at all. Genius.
Essentially, they made it look exactly as though they weren't involved at all. Genius.
Kauffer
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1) What is the evidence, which leaves you in "no doubt" the hallway was cleaned? What is the evidence of cleaning?
2) Why do say in connection with the alleged cleaning that "there is always something missed", when we know that what you state was "missed", Amanda knew about? She was aware of the bath mat blood and the other blood evidence in the bathroom? Amanda plainly did not miss it. She noticed it and she reported it to Romanelli soon after. If she were guilty, she would have cleaned it and she would have disposed of the bathmat. Good grief, you have her on her hands and knees with a lamp trying to find microscopic traces to clean up! Why, if she's doing that is she not wiping up the visible blood evidence next to the hallway, you also say she cleaned?
Kauffer
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Nobody claimed or testified that the washing machine had recently finished its cycle. This is Quennell's invention. The postale police did not testify that the washing machine was operating when they arrived at the cottage. This is also Quennell's invention.
This is the first time you have posted your source for this, but not the first time you have posted the claim. You got this idea directly from TJMK, which, as we know, is a falsehood filled pro guilt site. Why do you go there for your information when it is demonstrably unreliable.
Try to find a corroborating account for this claim of what the postale police discovered with regard to the washing machine. There isn't one. It's the same with the claim that they found Amanda with a mop. That was also a Quennell's lie.
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