Continuation Part 15: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Bill Williams]

Rudy liked to think he spoke English. He called himself Kevin Wade and also Byron after some US basketball player (which became The Baron). He apparently liked to pester American girls and ingratiate himself with them.

You cleverly avoided answering Strozzi's question. As always.

 

[Vixen]

Another thing theories like Vixen's leave out of account is that Amanda did not know Laura and Filomena were away for the weekend. She says so in her book and it must be true as it's too easily falsifiable if not. So, as far as she knew, either one of them might have come marching in during the murder or the subsequent clean up and staging. What was she going to do? Kill them too? And at some point during the night she is supposed to have thought, 'bugger this, I'm off for some kip. I'll buy some bleach in the morning and finish the job and if anyone shows up while I'm asleep I'll just have to make something up. Oh well. Nothing's perfect.'

All Souls is a big bank holiday in Italy, similar to Thanksgiving Day. It's de rigeur for Italians to spend it with their family, or at least go away. It's still a Catholic country, which barely recognises Halloween. Raf certainly couldn't be bothered with it. It's a surprise he stayed home over All Souls.

 

[LondonJohn]

You cynic! I bet the camera has been carefully stored in a bucket of water since '07

I actually wouldn't be at all surprised if the camera - together with any other of Knox's/Sollecito's electronics goods that were seized in 2007 - has "gone missing" somehow.

Remember how the police treated the belongings of the victim, Meredith Kercher, in this case? Remember how Christmas presents that her father knew she'd already bought and wrapped were never returned to them? Remember how only a (near-literal) handful of Kercher's clothes and belongings were returned to the family?

 

[Vixen]

I remember in the early days of my following this case, the guilters on the news website comment sections were making a big thing of the fact that Amanda didn't flush it away immediately, claiming that as a sign of guilt.

"Why didn't she flush! An innocent person wouldn't have left poo in the toilet!"​

Of course, if Amanda had flushed it out of fastidiousness, the evidence would have been gone. If she had then told the police about it, the guilters would have been accusing her of making it up, or else destroying evidence.

Amanda going on about the faeces, gave Rudy the idea to make up his sad story about sitting on the loo and missing the murder completely.

 

[LondonJohn]

All Souls is a big bank holiday in Italy, similar to Thanksgiving Day. It's de rigor for Italians to spend it with their family, or at least go away. It's still a Catholic country, which barely recognises Halloween. Raf certainly couldn't be bothered with it. It's a surprise he stayed home over All Souls.

Which is exactly why there were no revelling students in Halloween outfits queuing up for disco buses - as per Curatolo's utterly discredited testimony.

(PS: it's spelled "de rigueur".)

 

[Vixen]

I would think it would be more accurate for her to say she didn't remember being told just as the british girls didn't remember there was no school on Friday because of the holiday.

I think the idea of premeditation is undone by the lack of planning. Why would one plan to bring a knife when plenty of knives were available at the cottage? Since it has been stated that they left before 9 why wouldn't they have put on a movie they had both seen before that lasted two hours. Why didn't they go to Gubbio and wait to be alerted by text?

In terms of what they couldn't know would have been if Mez had invited someone over.

They were not expecting to be interrupted by the postal police.

BTW Do you believe Amanda took a shower that morning at the cottage?

 

[LondonJohn]

Amanda going on about the faeces, gave Rudy the idea to make up his sad story about sitting on the loo and missing the murder completely.

Guede knowing that he'd been to defecate in the cottage's large bathroom (and that these faeces had been discovered and shown to be his), coupled with Guede needing to find an explanation for his forensically-proven presence at the murder scene without implicating himself in the murder itself, gave Guede the idea to make up his story.

 

[LondonJohn]

They were not expecting to be interrupted by the postal police.

BTW Do you believe Amanda took a shower that morning at the cottage?

How would they know that they were not going to be "interrupted" during this mythical magical morning clean-up by Filomena arriving home, or by Laura arriving home, or by anyone calling round to see Meredith, Laura or Filomena or Knox herself (or potentially any of the boys downstairs)?

And yes (though it wasn't directed at me). I think Knox took a shower at the cottage that morning. What specifically makes you think she didn't?

 

[Vixen]

This is a little like our PGP poster.

Name one piece of evidence that was planted.

Provide a source for your earlier remark about Mignini getting from Rome what he needed beyond the obvious fact that the lab results had to come from Rome.

What is soft framing? They could have planted blood on the footprints but they didn't. They could have put blood on the knife but they didn't. They could have found blood in Raf's place but they didn't.

They could have put Raf's DNA on the bra clasp without others there as well. The video of the collection was broadcast to the van outside where the defense experts could see what was going on, which to me explains the show and tell format.
7
Was Massei part of the conspiracy?

Mez' jacket wasn't even collected for 46 days (same conditions as the bra clasp) yet there is no controversy about Stefanoni finding Rudy's DNA on the cuff.

 

[Vixen]

Didn't the police techs also use Raf's computer to surf the web? That suggests unprofessionalisn (incompetence), not cunning.

Unless their incompetence was staged - to conceal the deliberate nature of their erasure of the suspects' computer alibi. .

Vixen, from your perspective what do you think it was? incompetence or cunning?

Probably human error.

 

[Bill Williams]

Whatever use true-crime author John Follain is, he's useful in comparing and contrasting the way he puts things, compared with the way the characters who confided in him put things. This is a window to understanding if Giuliano Mignini had had the idea for a "frame-up" right from Nov 2nd.

I think an answer can be found in the way Follain differs from Mignini in relating the events leading to the 5:45 am, Nov 6 "confession" Knox signed. Given that Follain could only have got his details from Mignini - why the differences, esp. when compared with what Mignini told Drew Griffin of CNN about that night? John Follain writes an account of the time Mignini spent with Amanda (p.136-7, A Death in Italy) which is at odds with what Mignini himself told Drew Griffin of CNN in 2010.

The biggest difference is that Mignini tells Griffin that he's careful not to lead Knox at all, mostly likely because Mignini knows he needs to preserve the sanctity of "spontaneous statements" as much as possible. Not only does this mean (by his own admission) that he can ask her no questions, but he cannot "lead" her as well. For spontaneous statements to be spontaneous, they need to me, ah, er, spontaneous.

Right from the start of Follain's account, you'll see what's wrong. the critical time "5:45 am" is the time the 2nd memorial was signed, not the time it began. Also, in the CNN interview, Mignini goes to great pains to say why Knox did not need a lawyer - Follain has Mignini directly saying to her that she needed one, but refused. Is this Follain inventing facts to help Mignini along; or is Mignini the two-faced liar, telling Follain one thing and Griffin another?

Also, the bit about "Amanda had been unburdened" by accusing Patrick was said by Mignini to be his own insight BEFORE Amanda's statement, not after like Follain relates.

Who's the liar here? Mignini or Follain?

At 5:45 am, Mignini summoned Amanda. Speaking through an interpreter, the prosecutor asked if she was willing to make a statement. He opened a copy of the penal code and read out an article to her, which the interpreter translated. The law, Mignini explained, said that he couldn't aske her any questions and would limit himself to taking down her statement. 'You talk, and I listen,' Mignini said. He pointed out that from now on, anything she said could be used against her, and she was entitled to a lawyer. Amanda said she didn't need one. As he talked, Mignini noticed a red mark in the middle of her throat, but thought nothing of it.

Amanda wanted to speak, she explained, because she was deeply upset by Mereith's death, and very afraid of Patrick, whom she had met at about 9 pm. 'Patrick and Meredith went into her room, and I think I stayed in the kitchen. I can't remember how long they stayed there....

Watching Amanda Mignini had the impression that Patrick terrified her. He didn't doubt her sincerity; he thought she had unburdened herself in accusing him and had then cried with relief. The prosecutor hoped Amanda might tell them the rest of the story. 'Come on, go on talking. Tell us what happened, you can get this weight off your shoulders, he said to her.​

Follain concludes this by saying, "What Amanda revealed fitted Mignini's theory that someone inside the flat had let an outsider in who first sexually assaulted Meredith and then killed her....." Follain then has Mignini say aloud, "Amanda may be a fresh faced beauty, but she's also an actress, very calculating and a shameless liar."

Right there in his text, Follain contradicts himself.... or at least contradicts Mignini's account. If Knox is such a shameless liar, why go out and arrest Lumumba solely on Amanda's say-so, as Follain later relates is the reason Mignini had Lumumba arrested?

The point is, I don't think there's evidence, really, that Mignini was going to pin this on Raffaele and Amanda right there from the early afternoon of Nov 2.

The trouble is: John Follain implies heavily that the PLE were right to suspect Raffaele and Amanda, right from the "pooh" incident, where Napoleoni is annoyed with Raffaele on Nov 2 for being so insistant that the pooh be noticed.

With respect to Grinder, the issue is not the true-crime genre itself. It is that John Follain writes such an inconsistent narrative, wanting to have it both ways. Follain wants the PLE/Mignini to be right in suspecting them from the start, but also be caught by surprise at the Nov 5/6, all night interrogations.

 

[acbytesla]

I doubt anyone would even want to go near that disgusting mess. I am sure it's true Rudy had a dodgy kebab.

The theatre part is making a conscious decision not to flush. It was useless for DNA analysis anyway. The person who decided not to flush it after the event, also made a conscious decision not to call the police over a suspected crime, but waited for the police to find it.

The 3/4 bloody fingerprints on the wall is also pure theatre. Cliched horror movie shot. Whoever did it - and I am unsure whether it is a left or right hand streak, because, of course, photography can get reversed - had a ring finger and middle finger of similar length, with the index and little finger shorter. The finger marks in blood look long and elegant.

Rudy's fingers from the "holding a knife" photo look sausage like, with the ring finger much shorter than the middle finger. Hard to tell, of course, it all depends on angles.

The bomb in the toilet prank phone call is a strange sort of coincidence. However, I am sure it is just that.

The really crazy part is that the guiltlers like you Vixen never really discuss the evidence. But instead focus on Amanda's behavior as if you have a clue what it might mean.

Keep in mind that it wasn't Amanda's bathroom that Rudy took his dump. Wasn't it just days before that a big deal was made because Amanda didn't use the toilet brush.

 

[Bill Williams]

Mez' jacket wasn't even collected for 46 days (same conditions as the bra clasp) yet there is no controversy about Stefanoni finding Rudy's DNA on the cuff.

What was it about the AMOUNT of DNA found that would lend one to differentiate forensically between Rudy's DNA versus Raffaele's DNA. Think on that one.

 

[Grinder]

Mez' jacket wasn't even collected for 46 days (same conditions as the bra clasp) yet there is no controversy about Stefanoni finding Rudy's DNA on the cuff.

Well I don't think Rudi's defense ever objected so by ur standards done deal. As has been written over and over Rudi left plenty of evidence behind, admitted to being there in the room with the dying Mez so the DNA wasn't critical.

It was also found in normal DNA not LCN in multiple locations.

But u probably think it was because he was black.

 

[anglolawyer]

All Souls is a big bank holiday in Italy, similar to Thanksgiving Day. It's de rigeur for Italians to spend it with their family, or at least go away. It's still a Catholic country, which barely recognises Halloween. Raf certainly couldn't be bothered with it. It's a surprise he stayed home over All Souls.

You've read the book. Amanda did not know they would be away. Call her a liar if you want but it's a falsifiable lie, the kind people try not to tell. It's not just in the book either, although I can't remember where else I saw it.

 

[Vixen]

Which is exactly why there were no revelling students in Halloween outfits queuing up for disco buses - as per Curatolo's utterly discredited testimony.

(PS: it's spelled "de rigueur".)

It was mainly foreigners and students revelling.

Ok there was a typo, and now corrected to "riguer". Thanks for your assistance.

 

[christianahannah]

This is odd logic. You take body temp to determine TOD. At the time the body was discovered it was possible she was dead for no more than an hour or two. At some point body temperature doesn't help, but you don't know whether you are facing that situation until you take it.

Mignini needed a quick solution because at the time he had serious legal and public relations issues and being the prosecutor that successfully prosecuted a huge case (for Perugia) in record time would be a serious feather in his cap. It's a theory, nothing more.

I agree there is significant cases of blatant incompetence, but unless someone can show where not taking body temperature is SOP for the ILE, then I have to consider this case unique and there must be a reason for that.

ETA: In what way would taking body temperature compromise "DNA, prints, hair, etc." ? How does every other forensic investigation around the globe make taking body temperature SOP without running into problems with other forensic evidence?

I don't think the taking of the body temperature would compromise prints, hair, etc., however, could it compromise the integrity of swabs collected from the anus, vagina, etc. if the body temperature were taken prior to the swabs being done, especially since there appeared to be a sexual component to the murder?

 

[Vixen]

Guede knowing that he'd been to defecate in the cottage's large bathroom (and that these faeces had been discovered and shown to be his), coupled with Guede needing to find an explanation for his forensically-proven presence at the murder scene without implicating himself in the murder itself, gave Guede the idea to make up his story.

The three perps psyching each other out. Hence, perp A leaving perp B's footprint on the bath mat. Perp A telling police about blood on the back of perp B's hand. Perp B telling police perp A made him lie, and she was not with him all evening. Perp A cryptically referring to perp B's "mask of the assassin".

 

[Vixen]

How would they know that they were not going to be "interrupted" during this mythical magical morning clean-up by Filomena arriving home, or by Laura arriving home, or by anyone calling round to see Meredith, Laura or Filomena or Knox herself (or potentially any of the boys downstairs)?

And yes (though it wasn't directed at me). I think Knox took a shower at the cottage that morning. What specifically makes you think she didn't?

Makes it something like three showers in 24 hours.

Amanda did ring Filomena and found out she was at the Fair of the Dead. Probably knew the boys were all away, as Mez had to feed the cat and water the pot plants. Laura probably mentioned going to Rome for the weekend. It's not ESP.

 

[Sonia]

It was mainly foreigners and students revelling.

Ok there was a typo, and now corrected to "riguer". Thanks for your assistance.

de rigueur