Continuation Part 15: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Grinder]

Anglo is not confused! Your Italicised scenario supports my case, not yours.

So sorry but more confusion on Anglo's part as the Italicized section was addressed to Numbers and had nothing to do with your deep confusion

 

[RoseMontague]

Can't wait to see the photos.

My guess is that she will request and receive her property back. Whether the data from the camera and computer will be recoverable is another matter.

 

[acbytesla]

There are so many very suspicious activities in this case that it is difficult to imagine that there isn't a police conspiracy. Still much of these things can also be attributed to incompetence. But we can argue about this forever. We'll still never know for sure.

 

[anglolawyer]

So sorry but more confusion on Anglo's part as the Italicized section was addressed to Numbers and had nothing to do with your deep confusion

Anglo is too preoccupied with goings on at the Emirates to reply.

 

[Numbers]

The actual criminal is not a "convenient suspect" he is THE suspect and guilty and no wider range would be needed.

It should be easy to get a host of cases that will prove that the PLE under Mignini delayed temp test etc. as a regular possibly.

Are you going to say that this is "sarcasm" or what the PLE believe? (from your quote):

The actual criminal is not a "convenient suspect" he is THE suspect and guilty and no wider range would be needed.

 

[anglolawyer]

My guess is that she will request and receive her property back. Whether the data from the camera and computer will be recoverable is another matter.

You cynic! I bet the camera has been carefully stored in a bucket of water since '07

 

[Numbers]

Rigor was a sarcastic term in context but if not obvious I see your problem with it. To be clear I think Rose's <Dr. is appropriate and I've use Stefaphony in the past. I think she thinks she found MK's DNA and is just a lousy technician.

It is important to note that Novelli backed her as well as other Italian science people. The whole "contamination must be proven" discussion is mind blowing and makes one wonder about the mental state of Italians.

Steffi's work was so obviously bad it just doesn't make sense that it is part of conspiracy to frame.

{Highlighting added to quote.}

I agree with you that Stefanoni's work was bad (malpractice or fraud). But the courts of Massei, Chieffi panel CSC, and Nencini did not point that out. It was not so obviously bad to them...unless they were also part of the conspiracy to frame (that you believe did not exist).

 

[Bill Williams]

Rigor was a sarcastic term in context but if not obvious I see your problem with it. To be clear I think Rose's <Dr. is appropriate and I've use Stefaphony in the past. I think she thinks she found MK's DNA and is just a lousy technician.

It is important to note that Novelli backed her as well as other Italian science people. The whole "contamination must be proven" discussion is mind blowing and makes one wonder about the mental state of Italians.

Steffi's work was so obviously bad it just doesn't make sense that it is part of conspiracy to frame.

If I were on a jury, and Stefanoni were charged with something like obstruction of justice or criminal conspiracy or fraud, based on the evidence here I'd have to acquit - because of BARD.

It's not a crime to be incompetent, especially when the PM and courts she reports to encourages her.

 

[Grinder]

{Highlighting added to quote.}

I agree with you that Stefanoni's work was bad (malpractice or fraud). But the courts of Massei, Chieffi panel CSC, and Nencini did not point that out. It was not so obviously bad to them...unless they were also part of the conspiracy to frame (that you believe did not exist).

Have you read Novelli?

As Anglo understands correctly the Italians think differently (too bad you never experienced Mach) and for them three compatibles equals a match.

It has amazed me that any of the courts convicted. Well, after Massei it wasn't so amazing. The convoluted aspects of the system and the thinking of the judges is so strange it is impossible to grasp. No accusations in court of possible misconduct or a defamation or calumnia charge would be forthcoming.

Hellmann allowed the independent experts and seems to have been exoriated for it. The law says the judges can't let an expert decide something for them even if it is so complicated nobody but an expert can really understand it completely.

I think many Italians have minds that work in odd ways.

 

[Grinder]

If I were on a jury, and Stefanoni were charged with something like obstruction of justice or criminal conspiracy or fraud, based on the evidence here I'd have to acquit - because of BARD.

It's not a crime to be incompetent, especially when the PM and courts she reports to encourages her.

Thanks Bill. Now our experts may disagree and I might be able to convict for lack of disclosure but is that even required there.

 

[Grinder]

Are you going to say that this is "sarcasm" or what the PLE believe? (from your quote):

The actual criminal is not a "convenient suspect" he is THE suspect and guilty and no wider range would be needed.

It is not sarcasm if you mean the highlighted. Why would they need to fudge the TOD to get the actual murderer?

Are you saying that Mignini et al. wanted to convict some random person(s) and not the actual murderer?

Perhaps you give us a Follain of what Migninin was thinking at 2 pm 11/2/2007.

 

[TruthCalls]

How many cases depend on minutes of difference for an alibi? I'd say in these circumstances DNA, prints, hairs etc. were more important than body temp 15 hours after death. As stated above without knowing the temp in the house and whether or not the duvet was put on immediately or later the body temp would not have given a more precise TOD than we have anyway.

It wasn't the police that delayed it btw. It is ludicrous to posit that the temp wasn't taken in order to frame someone for the crime.

Exactly why Mignini delayed, not prevented, the temp being taken is unknown AFAIK.



I disagree that the temp would have narrowed the TOD time as for the reasons stated above. Why did Mignini "need a quick solution"?

Sorry but it all looks like incompetence rather than some planned out method to give more latitude to later frame someone.

This is odd logic. You take body temp to determine TOD. At the time the body was discovered it was possible she was dead for no more than an hour or two. At some point body temperature doesn't help, but you don't know whether you are facing that situation until you take it.

Mignini needed a quick solution because at the time he had serious legal and public relations issues and being the prosecutor that successfully prosecuted a huge case (for Perugia) in record time would be a serious feather in his cap. It's a theory, nothing more.

I agree there is significant cases of blatant incompetence, but unless someone can show where not taking body temperature is SOP for the ILE, then I have to consider this case unique and there must be a reason for that.

ETA: In what way would taking body temperature compromise "DNA, prints, hair, etc." ? How does every other forensic investigation around the globe make taking body temperature SOP without running into problems with other forensic evidence?

 

[Bill Williams]

Thanks Bill. Now our experts may disagree and I might be able to convict for lack of disclosure but is that even required there.

Shouldn't the court acquit for lack of disclosure?

 

[Bill Williams]

It is not sarcasm if you mean the highlighted. Why would they need to fudge the TOD to get the actual murderer?

Are you saying that Mignini et al. wanted to convict some random person(s) and not the actual murderer?

Perhaps you give us a Follain of what Migninin was thinking at 2 pm 11/2/2007.

LOL!

 

[Grinder]

Shouldn't the court acquit for lack of disclosure?

I was responding to your statement about Stef and whether she should be convicted. I don't know, but I'm sure numbers will let us know, if they have laws requiring disclosure. Of course I think they should have to.

 

[Bill Williams]

I was responding to your statement about Stef and whether she should be convicted. I don't know, but I'm sure numbers will let us know, if they have laws requiring disclosure. Of course I think they should have to.

Ah, ok. I now get it. My bad.

As far as one of the early Italian hearings was concerned, Stefanoni was upheld by a judge for lack of disclosure; essentially agreeing with Stefanoni's whiny letter that such a request was an insult to her integrity, or some such nonsense.

This is in comparison to the RIS Carabinieri who, at the Nencini trial, simply brought everything with them and they were done with it. Competent people actually DO want their work held up for scrutiny, because it makes them look good!

However, I have no idea if Stefanoni, herself, is exposed to a criminal charge. My guess would be, no, because she was backed up by a judge at the critical time. The judge implied to the defence, "either charge her with a crime, or withdraw your request for disclosure."

 

[carbonjam72]

Numbers please go back and read the thread where all this was gone over and by experts. Yes a that point other tests were terminated. Please provide other samples where "too low" was the reading and she continued.

The knife IIRC had more amplification than other samples. While other tests were ended earlier she didn't give up on the knife until she found a profile. Had the same methodology been applied to other samples IIRC the speculation was that they too might have produced profiles.

I think the point the lab savvy posters here have been making, as well the independent experts in the real world, is that Stef wasn't "finding DNA profiles" in the sense of getting reliable results. Rather she was essentially manufacturing a result and then trying to palm it off as legitimate. Something she could only do by hiding the underlying lab data that tracked how she obtained those results and the presence or absence of contamination.

Diocletus, Chris, Planigale, or Numbers could probably be more articulate here.

And yes, Mignini needed to solve the case because foreign students were fleeing Perugia, and taking a fair share of the local economy with them, under the glare of an international media circus. Plus Mignini himself had just been indicted for abuse of office, having claimed Mario Spezi was part of a satanic sect that had been responsible for the Monster of Florence serial killings, and whose purpose was to obtain the female sex organs from those sex mutilation murders for use in 'sacrificial rites'.

So Yes, Mignini needed to solve the case, and finding a satanic rites orgy murder conspiracy would do wonders for his situation at the time.

You could do a dissertation on what Mignini actually believed or would be able to admit to himself about what he was actually doing. I'll leave that speculation to experts.

But I must sadly lean towards Rose Monty's take on the attitude of the police. A conviction is a conviction, its not their fault if the court agrees.

 

[carbonjam72]

My guess is that she will request and receive her property back. Whether the data from the camera and computer will be recoverable is another matter.

How funny would it be if the memory was "fried", so the Italian police thought it would be lost, but then they managed to recover it anyway? And it showed what everyone thinks it will show, they were friends, and the stories of rancor and jealousy is just silly.

 

[Vixen]

Horror Movie Handprint

I saw Mignini on camera not long ago claim that Amanda, 20 at the time of the murder, is very astute. Do you believe that she found Rudi's specimen in the toilet and deliberately decided to use it for theatrical effect with the responding police (Napoleoni)? Is this what you mean, above?

I doubt anyone would even want to go near that disgusting mess. I am sure it's true Rudy had a dodgy kebab.

The theatre part is making a conscious decision not to flush. It was useless for DNA analysis anyway. The person who decided not to flush it after the event, also made a conscious decision not to call the police over a suspected crime, but waited for the police to find it.

The 3/4 bloody fingerprints on the wall is also pure theatre. Cliched horror movie shot. Whoever did it - and I am unsure whether it is a left or right hand streak, because, of course, photography can get reversed - had a ring finger and middle finger of similar length, with the index and little finger shorter. The finger marks in blood look long and elegant.

Rudy's fingers from the "holding a knife" photo look sausage like, with the ring finger much shorter than the middle finger. Hard to tell, of course, it all depends on angles.

The bomb in the toilet prank phone call is a strange sort of coincidence. However, I am sure it is just that.

 

[Vixen]

Samson, how does your theory work if Amanda and Raffaele never left his apartnent that evening/night?

What language did Amanda and Rudi communicate in?

Rudy liked to think he spoke English. He called himself Kevin Wade and also Byron after some US basketball player (which became The Baron). He apparently liked to pester American girls and ingratiate himself with them.