Continuation Part 15: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Grinder]

I never said they were reliable. Only that they "could" have been false memories. I am also unaware that Curatolo was questioned immediately following the murder. Quintavalle yes, but not Toto. Do you have a citation for that?

He was and saw nothing.

"Are you sure that the day after you saw those two discussing in an animated way you were questioned by the Carabinieri and saw the police at Via della Pergola in their white suits?" asked Mignini.

"Very sure," Curatolo said. "As sure as I am that I am sitting here."

But minutes later, in questioning by Sollecito's lawyer Giulia Bongiorno, Curatolo also said he had seen young people in masks and getting on buses to go to the discos. The distinction is important because Halloween was Oct. 31 and there were likely students in costumes, getting on shuttles to go to the discos on the outskirts of town.

PI Vogt

 

[acbytesla]

He was and saw nothing.

"Are you sure that the day after you saw those two discussing in an animated way you were questioned by the Carabinieri and saw the police at Via della Pergola in their white suits?" asked Mignini.

"Very sure," Curatolo said. "As sure as I am that I am sitting here."

But minutes later, in questioning by Sollecito's lawyer Giulia Bongiorno, Curatolo also said he had seen young people in masks and getting on buses to go to the discos. The distinction is important because Halloween was Oct. 31 and there were likely students in costumes, getting on shuttles to go to the discos on the outskirts of town.

PI Vogt

Thanks Grinder. Is there confirmation outside of a Vogt?

 

[RWVBWL]

I never said they were reliable. Only that they "could" have been false memories. I am also unaware that Curatolo was questioned immediately following the murder. Quintavalle yes, but not Toto. Do you have a citation for that?

Hi AC,
Sorry if I seemed rude in my post,
never the intent, it's always better to converse in person!


Anyways,
I 1st read of this during the 1st Appeals, very suprising!
I see that Grinder posted some info already,
here's more from the English translations of Curatolo's testimony at The Massei Court:

MIGNINI : What time did you wake up?

CURATOLO: Around 9:00. 8:30, 9:00. Something like that.

MIGNINI: Then what did you do?

CURATOLO: I went to the piazza again.

MIGNINI: To Piazza Grimana?

CURATOLO: Yes.

MIGNINI: What did you do there that morning?

CURATOLO: I went to get a cappuccino at the café. Then I sat down at the bench, smoked a cigarette. Every so often came some kid I knew, a friend, and we chatted. But there was something strange because there was a lot of movement by the police, coming and going. We were in the Piazza until around 1:30, 2:00. Or rather, I was there for even longer, only that the Carabinieri came to ask us if we had heard something or seen something. I said I hadn’t heard anything. Apart from the kids who were out having fun that night I didn’t see anything grave. We were there for a little while, and there was this coming and going of the police. We went to look down and we saw people wearing white suits – the police, Carabinieri. There was a mess of people down there.

MIGNINI: Down where? In what area?

CURATOLO: Near a house. They were near the entrance to a house.

MIGNINI: Via Della Pergola?

CURATOLO: Yes.

MIGNINI: The house that you saw in the newspapers, in the photos?

CURATOLO: Yes, yes.

MIGNINI: The house where the crime occurred?

CURATOLO: Yes. At least, that’s what the newspapers say.

* * *

Link is above in my previous post to you, but here it is for ease:
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/amanda-knox-transcripts/
Find Curatolo in the end of March 2009.


Curatolo had been a witness in 2 other previous murder trials before being questioned by the Carabinieri that day. He should have said something to the cops about what he saw last night regarding the horrible murder + rape of a foreign female Erasmus student, as this was the talk of the town.

He did not.

Nor did he, apparently, even hear The Scream...
Peace bro,
RW

 

[acbytesla]

Hi AC,
Sorry if I seemed rude in my post,
never the intent, it's always better to converse in person!


Anyways,
I 1st read of these during the 1st Appeals, very supprising!
I see that Grinder posted some info already,
here's more from the English translations of Curatolo's testimony at The Massei Court:

MIGNINI What time did you wake up?

CURATOLO Around 9:00. 8:30, 9:00. Something like that.

MIGNINI Then what did you do?

CURATOLO I went to the piazza again.

MIGNINI To Piazza Grimana?

CURATOLO Yes.

MIGNINI What did you do there that morning?

CURATOLO I went to get a cappuccino at the café. Then I sat down at the bench, smoked a cigarette. Every so often came some kid I knew, a friend, and we chatted. But there was something strange because there was a lot of movement by the police, coming and going. We were in the Piazza until around 1:30, 2:00. Or rather, I was there for even longer, only that the Carabinieri came to ask us if we had heard something or seen something. I said I hadn’t heard anything. Apart from the kids who were out having fun that night I didn’t see anything grave. We were there for a little while, and there was this coming and going of the police. We went to look down and we saw people wearing white suits – the police, Carabinieri. There was a mess of people down there.

MIGNINI Down where? In what area?

CURATOLO Near a house. They were near the entrance to a house.

MIGNINI Via Della Pergola?

CURATOLO Yes.

MIGNINI The house that you saw in the newspapers, in the photos?

CURATOLO Yes, yes.

MIGNINI The house where the crime occurred?

CURATOLO Yes. At least, that’s what the newspapers say.

* * *

Link is above in the post, but here it is for ease:
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/amanda-knox-transcripts/
Find Curatolo in the end of March 2009.


Curatolo had been a witness in 2 other previous murder trials before being questioned by the Carabinieri that day. He should have said something to the cops about what he saw last night regarding the horrible murder + rape of a foreign female Erasmus student, as this was the talk of the town.

He did not.

Nor did he, apparently, even hear The Scream...
Peace bro,
RW

Don't worry Surfer Joe. I totally understood. It's all bogus and really screwed up. I just want to give some of these people the benefit of the doubt. I can't imagine lying to put two innocent people in prison for 20+ years.

 

[RoseMontague]

Thanks Grinder. Is there confirmation outside of a Vogt?

It was in his testimony at the Hellmann trial. He said he told the cops he didn't see anything because people like him don't talk to the cops (even though he has a history of testifying for the prosecution in other cases).

 

[acbytesla]

It was in his testimony at the Hellmann trial. He said he told the cops he didn't see anything because people like him don't talk to the cops (even though he has a history of testifying for the prosecution in other cases).

Thanks. That is classic. So this is worse than I thought. I don't know how anyone can think that those two are reliable. Not when they were questioned immediately after the murder and then come up with these stories many months later.

 

[Samzilla]

Thanks. That is classic. So this is worse than I thought. I don't know how anyone can think that those two are reliable. Not when they were questioned immediately after the murder and then come up with these stories many months later.

Exactly. Eye witness testimony is at its most reliable in the immediate aftermath of an event, and only gets worse from there.

The fact that guys like Quintavalle and Curatolo claimed sharper, surer memories of events months later is not how memories work. Especially memories now influenced by Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito's pictures plastered all over every type of media accompanied with terrible accusations.

There's a great episode of Brain Games on netflix that tackles the subject of eyewitness reliability. It's season 1, episode 3 (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1zwxcl_brain-games-remember-this-s01e03_shortfilms). In the immediate aftermath of a staged street mugging, witnesses were questioned. A number of them were unsure of what they saw. They were questioned again later in a mock courtroom setting, but two new people were inserted among the witnesses and testified falsely (eg. saw a red coat, a camera stolen).

The real witnesses, who previously stated they weren't sure of what they saw, were now sure there had been a red coat and a camera stolen. That's how easily false and/or distorted memories can be created.

I can see quite easily how all the press about AK and RS would have created false or distorted memories in the witnesses. Especially considering how easy it was to distort the memories of people who actually believed they were witnessing something relevant at the time, a crime, where'd they'd probably be trying even harder than usual to pay attention.

 

[acbytesla]

Exactly. Eye witness testimony is at its most reliable in the immediate aftermath of an event, and only gets worse from there.

The fact that guys like Quintavalle and Curatolo claimed sharper, surer memories of events months later is not how memories work. Especially memories now influenced by Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito's pictures plastered all over every type of media accompanied with terrible accusations.

There's a great episode of Brain Games on netflix that tackles the subject of eyewitness reliability. It's season 1, episode 3 (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1zwxcl_brain-games-remember-this-s01e03_shortfilms). In the immediate aftermath of a staged street mugging, witnesses were questioned. A number of them were unsure of what they saw. They were questioned again later in a mock courtroom setting, but two new people were inserted among the witnesses and testified falsely (eg. saw a red coat, a camera stolen).

The real witnesses, who previously stated they weren't sure of what they saw, were now sure there had been a red coat and a camera stolen. That's how easily false and/or distorted memories can be created.

I can see quite easily how all the press about AK and RS would have created false or distorted memories in the witnesses. Especially considering how easy it was to distort the memories of people who actually believed they were witnessing something relevant at the time, a crime, where'd they'd probably be trying even harder than usual to pay attention.

We actually performed basically this same experiment in college. People make atrocious witnesses. And what is really interesting is cops and detectives know this.

 

[Numbers]

RW could you see if Frank wrote about the testing of the knife and whether the defense experts were able to attend.

Not at all important but just curious.

Hi Grinder,
Here's a couple of links from Perugia Shock during The Massei Trial,
reporting on The Knife:

http://web.archive.org/web/20101015182343/http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009_07_01_archive.html

http://web.archive.org/web/20101015182134/http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009_09_01_archive.html

http://web.archive.org/web/20100806235709/http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/09/too-low.html

RW,

Many thanks for supplying these links. Frank's blog is an invaluable resource, especially for a relative newbie such as myself. Also he hints at some possible Stefanoni misconduct which may be important to understanding the issue of the defense experts possibly not being in attendance at the lab for certain tests.

This alleged misconduct would be that the defense experts were not notified of the day that the alleged retests of the knife handle and blade were to be done, and so could not attend. Similarly, if there were indeed retests of the bra clasps as alleged, there would have been misconduct if the defense experts were not notified of the day that such alleged retests were done, and so could not attend. Alternatively, if the defense experts had been notified when the alleged retests were to be done but decided not to attend, it is not clear that there would have been a violation.

The possible misconduct relates to the possible violation of an Italian procedural law, CPP Article 403, Use at trial of evidence gathered during special evidentiary hearing {"incidente probatorio"}. The relevant paragraph appears to be:

CPP Article 403

1. During the trial, evidence gathered during a special evidentiary hearing shall be used exclusively against accused persons whose lawyers have participated in evidence gathering.

The language in CPP Art. 403 IMO means that any evidence gathered in a special evidenciary hearing without the participation of the defense lawyer or the defense expert cannot be admitted at trial. {Again, I'm not a lawyer and certainly not an expert on Italian law.} Backing up my opinion are some statements I saw in Frank's blog.

[18 July 2009] Mrs Stefanoni has been kind of secretive in this trial, when she was done with the tests she just provided the mere results. The defense had to ask additional data. And the charts arrived. But still more data were missing. But the defense didn't really manage to put their finger on the problem in court --a problem we've always been dealing here, when we were reasoning that we don't know how that chart was created. Or that the compulsory presence of the parties was only formally respected, and we have to trust Stefanoni when she tells us that the result is genuine. What if she's wrong?
....

While Mrs Comodi was busy with her, by now, usual escape for smoking, the defenses, with the power that little number {Stefanoni had stated that there were 1.4 ng of DNA on the bra clasp, information the defense had not been provided} gave them, explained the judge that the wonderlab didn't provide all information about the tests, and this affects the rights of the defendant. A principle that a man of law can't ignore.
The time for the rebellion was mature. Bongiorno, immediately followed by Dalla Vedova, filed to Massei the request of immediate suspension of the trial until all missing data --quantities, registries, rough copies-- were produced, with the understanding that they will probably request that this evidence be declared invalid. The judge accepted the request. It's really true that smoking is dangerous.

[9 July 2009] Here I have to remind how is the situation for non-repeatable tests under the legal point of view {in accordance with CPP Art. 392}, and this may be surprising.
A non-repeatable test is valid only when the parties are present. This DNA test is valid, it has been acquired, because it was done at the presence of the parties, as the law requires. But what does it mean the parties to be present? It means that the one who makes the test notifies the parties that the test will be done. Then, if they show up or not, under the legal point of view they were present anyway, because they were notified to.
The parties did send their experts for the most important tests, about crime scene stuff. But they certainly couldn't live in that lab, and they wouldn't go for stuff seized at Raffaele's place. It seems, indeed, that only a civil party consultant was actually present for that particular test. And, as we know, in this trial saying civil party is like saying prosecution.
Here we have an example of difference between actual truth and legal truth. The representatives of Knox and Sollecito weren't there. But for the trial they were there, the test was done at their presence. In this case, when the freedom of two people is into question, what would you suggest to the judge, to consider the legal truth or the actual truth?

{Emphasis and text within braces added. Dates in brackets are heading dates in the blog.}

 

[Bill Williams]

PR agents are enormously powerful.

We had a one-man PR agent here in England, Max Clifford (now jailed for sex abuse) and his stories absolutely dominated British tabloids.

For example, Ulrika Johnson (minor celebrity) affair with Goran Errikkson, England Manager; Victoria (_?) Loos claimed "romp" with David Beckham; David Mellor, MP, and some prostitute. It was amazing how these stories ran and ran.

You're serious, aren't you!

One can only shake ones head. Thank God this is all over and the only thing left is some daffy on-line prognosticators.

 

[Numbers]

For the Amanda's application to the ECHR on her claim against Italy violating her rights for her conviction for calunnia against Patrick Lumumba, IMO she has three approaches.

1. A claim under Convention Article 3, for the violation of the prohibition against inhuman and degrading treatment during her Nov. 5/6, 2007 interrogation.

2. A claim under Convention Articles 6.1 with 6.3c, for the violation of her right to a lawyer during the interrogation, which led to a trial which was unfair because it used a statement she made during that interrogation as a significant (sole) basis for her conviction. The same claim applies to the use of any and all the statements she made during the time she was in custody without a lawyer. A claim under Convention Article 6.1 with 6.3e, which led to a trial that was unfair because she was not provided with a fair interpreter during the interrogation which led to her conviction may be combined with the failure to provide counsel claim. Also falling into this category would be the denials of the right to remain silent, the right to be told that one is a suspect (and to be promptly informed of the reasons for one's arrest), and the right to be told that one's statements may be used against one in a prosecution.

3. A claim under Convention Article 6.1 that the reasoning for the conviction presented by the Hellmann court was arbitrary and insufficient. There are three aspects to this:

3.1 The Hellmann court motivation report explains at length the many vulnerabilities of Knox during the interrogation, but then with essentially contradictory reasoning finds her guilty of calunnia. Knox could not know whether or not Lumumba was guilty of the murder of Kercher, because she was not present in the cottage. She responded to the suggestion of the police interrogators who had altered her will through inhuman and degrading treatment.

3.2 The motivation report did not provide reasons for not considering the defense by Knox that she had been threatened and hit, as part of the inhuman and degrading treatment.

3.3 The motivation report did not provide reasons for not considering, and did not overcome, the defense by Knox defense expert Carlo Caltagirone that situations of particularly intense stress can produce false memories.

[25 September 2009, from Frank's Perugia Shock blog]Psychiatrist Carlo Caltagirone explained how situations of particularly intense stress can produce false memories.
And everybody attacked him. Prosecutors, civil parties. They all wanted to know what could ever be this stress Amanda was suffering those days. Why should she have been more stressed than Laura, Filomena, or the English girls.

{Emphasis added to blog quote.}

 

[Mr Fied]

Moreover, once it is concluded that the reality surrounding [events] was 31 October and not 1 November, it would seem more logical to reconsider the sighting of the two youths in that context, therefore on 31 October, because it is contemporaneous with the sighting, rather than the next day which is the day preceding the arrival of the Scientific Police, but thus necessarily extrapolated from context. Hellmann on Curatolo.

Discuss.

People are still peddling false information, refuted evidence, innuendo and outright lies as evidence.

Disgust

 

[carbonjam72]

Come on ACbyTesla,
It's time to get real, the Marco + the tramp's statements were bogus!!!

Neither reported what they saw when 1st questioned by police,
and Curatolo was questioned the very day Miss Kercher was found raped + murdered.

It was almost 1/2 a year later for Antonio and only about 1 year later for Marco to come forward at the behest of a journalist (to help Mignini's theory), who just so happened to have been a long time friend of Marco's and lived next door to his shop:

Perugia Shock
Jan. 15, 2009:
<snip>
Just by coincidence the journalist who found him is a friend of him for decades and lives next door to his store. In other words the same journalist who for one year has been bothering all pushers and homeless people of the park, the one that has been buzzing at all doors around via della Pergola needed one year to know something from his old friend Marco whose store is just next door...

Link:
http://web.archive.org/web/20100807000011/http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009_01_01_archive.html

* * *


Here's another link:
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/

Go to The Documents Section on the left side +
read the English translation transcripts of The Massei Trial
with both Marco Quintavalle + Antonio "Toto" Curatolo testimony,
it was complete bullcrap, tragically too sad, for Amanda, Raff + Justice for Meredith...


Amanda + Raff are FREE now,
it's time, in my humble opinion,
to call bull^^^^ what it is when we see it right in front of us...

RW

Did this same journalist also find Nara, the half deaf elderly lady?

Any other witnesses? It would be interesting to see a complete list of witnesses, who found them , and when. (and by what means - thoroughly canvassing a scene, or one on one long after the fact).

 

[Annella]

Did this same journalist also find Nara, the half deaf elderly lady?

Any other witnesses? It would be interesting to see a complete list of witnesses, who found them , and when. (and by what means - thoroughly canvassing a scene, or one on one long after the fact).

Yup. Antioco Fois is his name. He can claim Nara, Curatolo and Quintavalle all to himself! What a scoop, not to mention an unprecedented coup! Well, maybe not. We are talking Italy after all. And it matters not that they 'came forward' months after the murder of course.

 

[carbonjam72]

Lying, or playing 'make believe', is a cultural thing.

Don't worry Surfer Joe. I totally understood. It's all bogus and really screwed up. I just want to give some of these people the benefit of the doubt. I can't imagine lying to put two innocent people in prison for 20+ years.

Curatolo did it twice before. Frank S seemed to think Quintavale knew he was lying, and I agree. And Mignini had built a career on it.

Seems to happen all the time. I truly believe its a cultural thing. Defendants are allowed and expected to lie in Italy. Its just different there.

I'll never forget Mach's saying that, 'In Italy, if no one dies, no one is held accountable'.

Its like living in an unending amateur theater production, where from time to time, people are obliged to play odd roles as needed for the national drama.

 

[carbonjam72]

Thanks. That is classic. So this is worse than I thought. I don't know how anyone can think that those two are reliable. Not when they were questioned immediately after the murder and then come up with these stories many months later.

And at the urging of the same cub journalist, with everyone getting paid all around.

 

[Samson]

Yup. Antioco Fois is his name. He can claim Nara, Curatolo and Quintavalle all to himself! What a scoop, not to mention an unprecedented coup! Well, maybe not. We are talking Italy after all. And it matters not that they 'came forward' months after the murder of course.

Annella, this case is more or less closed, but others are just warming up.

 

[carbonjam72]

When things finally come full circle -

Yup. Antioco Fois is his name. He can claim Nara, Curatolo and Quintavalle all to himself! What a scoop, not to mention an unprecedented coup! Well, maybe not. We are talking Italy after all. And it matters not that they 'came forward' months after the murder of course.

Isn't it also a crime in Italy to encourage others to give false testimony to a judge or investigator? Couldn't this cub reporter Mr Fois, be looking at a legal case himself? Shouldn't he be? And probably Quintavale too. Curatolo has made his escape, and Nara doesn't know where she is, and so could only be tried in a kind of absentia.

Motivation report in June. Then an investigation, indictments, trials & convictions, various retractions and apologies. At some point the calunnia is reversed (though I'm still hoping/betting/claiming that cassation will knock it down of their own accord in June). And then, all goes back to normal. Until the next case.

 

[Grinder]

Numbers thanks for reading and reporting on Frank's lab articles as I haven't yet. It would appear that it verifies my recollection that the experts for the defense weren't there including Potenza. To me his reporting though a translation was clear that he was only analyzing the tests but hadn't been there.

Interestingly Mach made the argument that they didn't attend to make their later complaints about the methods etc.

Once again it verifies the serious faults in the Italian system. A non-repeatable test of this significance shouldn't be done with only a few hours notice to the defense, which was the case.

 

[anglolawyer]

Numbers thanks for reading and reporting on Frank's lab articles as I haven't yet. It would appear that it verifies my recollection that the experts for the defense weren't there including Potenza. To me his reporting though a translation was clear that he was only analyzing the tests but hadn't been there.

Interestingly Mach made the argument that they didn't attend to make their later complaints about the methods etc.

Once again it verifies the serious faults in the Italian system. A non-repeatable test of this significance shouldn't be done with only a few hours notice to the defense, which was the case.

Yes. Why is it 'either or' anyway? Why can't the defence attend tests (or decline to do so) and also demand any material they want? What is pernicious in the Italian system is the obligation to justify disclosure requests at the risk of being slammed with a lawsuit if the application contains an imputation of impropriety.