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Continuation Part 15: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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....

To overcome such issues about "mind reading" in the face of a lack of available trustworthy information on the state of mind of the police and prosecutor, one may attempt to rely on their overt (observable) actions.

For example, in the ECHR case Hajnal v. Serbia 36937/06, Hajnal was arrested for several days in a row each morning by Serbian police at about 4:00 or 5:00 am, brought in for questioning, and then released much later, after about 10 or 12 hours. On one of these days he claims he was beaten by the police. On the next day he confessed to a serious crime. (He had a retained lawyer, but while under police custody, he dismissed that lawyer for not allowing him to confess, and was assigned a defense lawyer who did not attend his interrogation. He claimed the dismissal was done under duress.) The ECHR judged in the Hajnal case that the police actions in arresting Hajnal, questioning him for lengthy periods, releasing him, and then rearresting him was part of a pattern showing violation of Convention Article 3, prohibition against inhuman and degrading treatment, even if the alleged beating by police could not be documented BARD.

Application to the Amanda Knox - Raffaele Sollecito case: Amanda was requested to appear at the police station for questioning for many hours duration on each of Nov. 2, 3, and 4, 2007. She was not formally under arrest during these questionings, but persons requested to answer questions as a witness by police may be under some obligation to do so. Were these repeated questionings for long durations comparable to the repeated ones in Hajnal (without the element of coercion including allegations of threats and hitting before the Nov. 5/6 interrogation)? Were they simply repetitive and designed to wear down the resistance or to fatigue Amanda Knox? If so, then the official misconduct may have begun as early as Nov. 3, 2007.

In any case, IMO, the official misconduct must certainly have begun with the planning of the interrogation of Nov. 5/6, 2007. Testimony of Giobbi documents for ECHR purposes that this interrogation was planned for both Knox and Sollecito, and this type of interrogation is that used for suspects. There were clear undisputed violations of Italian law (procedural) and Constitution in the Nov. 5/6 interrogations, and allegations of criminal violations (including threats and hitting). And with the conviction of Knox for calunnia, there was clearly a violation of Convention Articles 6.1 (right to a fair trial) with 6.3c (right to a lawyer for defense, which generally must be provided during interrogation).

For completeness and accuracy, here is the bottom line of the ECHR judgment for the Hajnal v Serbia case 36937/06 regarding the violation of Convention Article 3 (substantive aspects):

92. In view of the above, the Court concludes that the applicant was physically abused on 17 August 2005 and was, at the very least, mentally coerced into giving his confession on 18 August 2005, events of those two days being inextricably linked to each other (see, mutatis mutandis, Milanović v. Serbia, no. 44614/07, § 78, 14 December 2010). Indeed, on 22 March 2006 the Municipal Court itself concluded that the applicant’s repeated arrests amounted to police harassment aimed at obtaining his confession (see paragraph 39 above).

93. Accordingly, the Court considers that there has been a violation of Article 3 of the Convention on account of the inhuman and degrading treatment suffered by the applicant.

{Highlighting added.}

The highlighted statements in the judgment appear relevant to the Amanda Knox - Raffaele Sollecito case for the period Nov. 2 through Nov. 5/6, 2007 and for Knox, Nov. 6 and 7 (relating to her Memoriales 1 and 2).
 
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They can't keep Patrick unless they also take his alibis. They already started fitting Usi with a video appearance near the cottage and if the swiss professor says he was with Patrick all evening then he must have been in on it too. And then there are all the students that say they were at his bar... How did they all fit in that tiny bedroom?

Of course they can't. I was if course pushing the scenario to the ridiculous...As if the case wasn't ridiculous in the first place.
 
[/HILITE]


Wrong thread. Darwins Theory is very elegant, but it's still only just that. A theory.

I don't know if the mods will give me leeway to broaden discussion a little. I have previously made the analogy between the arguments of many pro-guilt commentators and those of both supporters of intelligent design (Briars), and HIV denialists (Mach argued this). One example is the requirement for an exact experimental reproduction of a particular circumstance (Jackie), and persistent disbelief in the ability of DNA to be secondarily or greater transferred. Even once this was clearly reported in the literature, then the details were not exactly equivalent and so could be dismissed. I think in all cases this represents a literal prejudice, with subsequent uncritical cherry picking of supportive evidence and hypercriticism of contrary evidence. This is a broad theme on issues in 'skepticism', and why I think this issue and others related to interpretation of forensic science belong on a skeptic web site. Forensic science has a tendency to be contaminated by pseudo-science.
 
She insisted in turning up, when she could have had plenty of sleep in her bed.
She volunteered to help police draw up a list of people known to be associated with the cottage.

The evidence is against her that police forced her to name Patrick as a sex killer, for she reiterated her claims quite voluntarily in writing, in a letter she wrote with no police around. At no time did she retract her calumny.

We know she knew it was a lie, because a wire tap between her and mum Edda, informed police Amanda was happy to let Patrick rot in prison.

The stuff about police torture is pure PR spin Amanda paid $'000's dollars for.

No she could not sleep in her bed. The flat was a crime scene, she was homeless. Assuming she was innocent, she would be alone in a strange flat, in a strange town, in a strange country, having had her flat mate brutally murdered, and the murderer still at large. She would be waiting up for Sollecito's return from the police station. Her accompanying him to the police station I find entirely normal.

She did not volunteer to provide evidence, she was approached whilst waiting for Sollecito and asked to clarify some points whilst she was there. An offer she could not refuse.
 
Vecchiotti and Conti were a couple of charlatans paid by the defense to write what the defense wanted them to write. In court, they sat with the Sollecitos.

You may be surprised to know that the Conti/Vecchiotti report is still official evidence in this case. Nencini's disregard of valid evidence is likely to be as important in the coming motivations, as his use of illegal use of excluded evidence.
The biggest scandal IMV was Hellmann egregiously releasing the two convicted killers for misguided reasons or personal sympathy and lack of Criminal Law experience. After that fiasco, that embarrassed the whole of Italy, and set in motion ppl cashing in on the pair's notoreity, the whole thing has been tainted ever since.

Hellman's report will go down in history as one of the greatest legal scandals, and the consequent money-making machine as one of the greatest hoaxes of this century, on a par with Watergate.

So, you trust judges over the ordinary Joe, provided those judges endorse your own irrational beliefs. That's how it is, isn't it?
 
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Reality check. So now the police IT department are in on the "conspiracy".

The most sensible conclusion is human error and stupidity.

I agree with this, the pursuit of Sollecito and Knox was the result of Human error and stupidity. The multiple forensic errors were the result of human error and stupidity. I am not inclined to a view of a grand conspiracy.

The most suspicious piece of evidence is the bloody footprint on the bath mat. The measurements of this are too good. They cannot be real. Even accepting them if you look carefully at what they mean, the length of the ball of the foot measured is significantly different from Sollecito's. Given the apparent accuracy of every other measurement, this excludes Sollecito.
 
No, I said nothing of the sort. I was pointing out your erroneous assumption that scientific laws are infallible.

Again, you miss the point of what I saying.

a) a scientific law reflects reality - it doesn't influence reality.

b) I make no such assumption. I made an analogy between the way police, prosecutors and judges have made up facts in this case (the alleged "staged" break-in and "clean-up") to suit their pre-judged conclusions, and Young-Earth Creationist propaganda in hand-waving away geological evidence.
 
Wait, did Vixen say Conti and Vechiotti were paid by the defence? LOL. Somebody should be keeping a list of these crackpot claims.
 
Vecchiotti and Conti were a couple of charlatans paid by the defense to write what the defense wanted them to write. In court, they sat with the Sollecitos.

The biggest scandal IMV was Hellmann egregiously releasing the two convicted killers for misguided reasons or personal sympathy and lack of Criminal Law experience. After that fiasco, that embarrassed the whole of Italy, and set in motion ppl cashing in on the pair's notoreity, the whole thing has been tainted ever since.

Hellman's report will go down in history as one of the greatest legal scandals, and the consequent money-making machine as one of the greatest hoaxes of this century, on a par with Watergate.



Wow.

A sceptical observer might suggest that this "argument" is somewhat hysterical :D

It's a while since I remember seeing so much ludicrous hyperbole in a single post here. At least it puts the final nail in the coffin of Vixen's claims to rational objectivity......
 
Especially considering she has not even read Hellman. No matter, Vixen has at least read all the books on the case (but declines to list them).
 
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For completeness and accuracy, here is the bottom line of the ECHR judgment for the Hajnal v Serbia case 36937/06 regarding the violation of Convention Article 3 (substantive aspects):

92. In view of the above, the Court concludes that the applicant was physically abused on 17 August 2005 and was, at the very least, mentally coerced into giving his confession on 18 August 2005, events of those two days being inextricably linked to each other (see, mutatis mutandis, Milanović v. Serbia, no. 44614/07, § 78, 14 December 2010). Indeed, on 22 March 2006 the Municipal Court itself concluded that the applicant’s repeated arrests amounted to police harassment aimed at obtaining his confession (see paragraph 39 above).

93. Accordingly, the Court considers that there has been a violation of Article 3 of the Convention on account of the inhuman and degrading treatment suffered by the applicant.

{Highlighting added.}

The highlighted statements in the judgment appear relevant to the Amanda Knox - Raffaele Sollecito case for the period Nov. 2 through Nov. 5/6, 2007 and for Knox, Nov. 6 and 7 (relating to her Memoriales 1 and 2).

Im looking forward to the investigation going further into the Perugia "pack", and this interrogation.

The interrogation was what Frank named his site Perugia Shock after, if I recall. The big confession, the big case closed so quickly.... no recording?
confession?

Migninni and the Perugia "pack" should all be removed from office, like a cancer removed from the body. Who knows how many others they've done this too?
 
Hello Everyone....I'm new here but I hope I have a pretty good understanding of the debacle but forgive me if I introduce stuff already covered. Hopefully I add a slightly different slant.

The "staged break in" has always troubled me. Surely Mignini and the overruled Judges are not so stupid that they believe staged break ins are always evidence of inside jobs. Of course they may be but the quickness to this conclusion by the prosecution has hints of Inspector Clouseau at work. If this is the extent of the Italian police work it is worrying to say the least. A message to burglars to stage a staged break after their break in thereby deflecting suspicion to the inhabitants and rendering themselves immune from being caught. I'm not suggesting anything by bringing this up other than ineptness by the Italian authorities by jumping to conclusions before proper investigation takes place.

I'm not averse to a little gambling from time to time but if you offered me a bet on the chances of murder accomplices unknowingly faking one of their colleague's favourite break in methods at a crime scene I'd expect to see odds in the tens of thousands to one. It's just too ridiculous for words to believe that K&S unwittingly happened to emulate Guede's previously used methods of breaking and entering. Sorry...just NO.

The "clean up" suggestion is absurd. Mignini (and possibly some of the overruled Judges) suggest Knox is cunning. However it's not cunning to attempt a cleanup of your own presence at a crime scene. It's stupid because it cannot be done and that is all the proof you need to prove it wasn't done. You can alter evidence of one's presence at a crime scene but you cannot remove it. The longer you stay and clean the more new evidence you leave to be found by police (if they do their work properly). If K&S had entered Kercher's room to "clean up" they would certainly have brought into the room new evidence of their presence. Whether they could remove more of "themselves" than they introduce is academic but to think anybody is capable of "overseeing the removal of their presence" is just plain deluded. ...or does Mignini and company think those fellows wear their white suits just for the fun of it.

There is only one way for K&S to have an absence of presence in the murder room and that's for them to be have been absent from the murder room.....or to wear a forensic experts white outfit. .....oh and try working with household cleaners and see how the stench follows you around for those around you to smell....for hours.

In fact were K&S guilty (hypothetically let's just assume this) AND cunning surely the cunning thing to do is the simplest. "Break in" through the front door after Rudy leaves then break into Meredith's room. Then "investigate" what's under the blanket and tramp your evidence all around the room and then the apartment. Then call the police. Job done.

...but a staged break in with a rock fetched from outside (in full view to inquisitive passers by) to then go inside to smash windows (which might alert neighbours) is just inconceivably stupid. So stupid that I would suggest that no such complete idiot exists that would attempt such folly. (In fact some would suggest that K&S are that stupid as to select a rock barely able to be tossed more than few metres). But it requires an even bigger idiot to conceive this type of "staging" to be a remotely plausible scenario (..and I haven't even broached the stupidity of "staging" a break in through a window too high off the ground to climb into as suggested by some of those so blinded).

I live in a country with one of the highest murder rates in the entire world...South Africa. It is absolutely common for a single attacker to inflict multiple wounds on multiple victims at a single murder scene. One person can murder an entire family (google farm murders in South Africa) in the most vicious and torturing way without any sign of resistance from the victims. Multiple attackers it may have been but to rule out a single attacker is utterly idiotic.


Hi Mike1711, welcome to the list and I hope you'll continue to contribute.

A few comments. As you know South Africa has a long history of a 9% European minority who brought in draconian apartheid laws to keep the native African population away from them. This created enormous political strife, and large social inequality. Consequently, when the poor Blacks from the townships went out to rob the heavily armed rich - for example, we saw how Oscar Pistorius kept loaded guns by his bedside - they, too, were heavily armed.

Whilst white South Africans are intensely race conscious - in my psychology studies, experiments found that white South Africans notice racial features, before anything else, when they meet someone, whereas other nationalities notice gender, as the first thing - we have to be careful juxtaposing stereotypes of Blacks in South Africa to Rudy in Italy.

Rudy grew up in a wealthy Italian family, he did not live in a black township. He was in between jobs as of the time of the murder, and like many people of his age - 20 - I dare say he was very hard up. Thus when he went to a party in Milan he found himself with nowhere to stay the night. Many a young partygoer ends up sleeping on a floor after missing the last train home.

Some woman Rudy met in Milan in the nighclub and employee of a nursery, gave him the key so he could crash there for the night. She was sacked shortly after. Rudy was caught with a stolen laptop and a knife in his rucksack.

He was charged and convicted - four years later, whilst in jail for the Kercher murder, as an accessory to the murder - of being in possession of a stolen laptop. He was also in possession of a black skin, but outside of apartheid South Africa, that was not a crime.

You'll find all the posters here - apart from me - make the leap of logic that being in possession of stolen property means, "Rudy's MO was as a cat burglar", when all it means is he had a stolen laptop.

Rudy claimed he bought it cheap. Burglars target laptops as they are easy to carry and highly saleable. It follows there is a market for stolen laptops, as there is for stolen mobile phones.

So, whilst Blacks in South Africa are responsible for most violent crime, it is poor logic to conclude, "Rudy is the sole perpetrator based on my knowledge of South African crime."
 
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Rudy waited 10 minutes per his story before assault

I believe it most likely by 9:30, almost certainly by around 10PM. The cell phone evidence confirms this as does Rudy"s testimony about the timing of the murder and when he left. He admitted being there, and that a murder occurred. Why lie about the time?

Rudy also said he listened to 3 songs on his ipod for about 10 minutes. If Meredith came home at 9pm, that puts the assault beginning at 910pm. WHich is consistent with Kercher not having had a chance to take off her jacket, and the undigested food TOD indications. So how long did it take Rudy to kill Merddith, 10-15 mins? Seems about right.

Rudy's on the toilet, hears Meredtih come home. Maybe he waits quietly for her to go to her room, and then tries to leave out the front door to avoid confrontation, but the faulty front door won't open without a key. Perhaps Meredith hears and discovers him, and starts screaming. End of.
 
Hi Mike1711, welcome to the list and I hope you'll continue to contribute.

A few comments. As you know South Africa has a long history of a 9% European minority who brought in draconian apartheid laws to keep the native African population away from them. This created enormous political strife, and large social inequality. Consequently, when the poor Blacks from the townships went out to rob the heavily armed rich - for example, we saw how Oscar Pistorius kept loaded guns by his bedside - they, too, were heavily armed.

Whilst white South Africans are intensely race conscious - in my psychology studies, experiments found that white South Africans notice racial features, before anything else, when they meet someone, whereas other nationalities notice gender, as the first thing - we have to be careful juxtaposing stereotypes of Blacks in South Africa to Rudy in Italy.

Rudy grew up in a wealthy Italian family, he did not live in a black township. He was in between jobs as of the time of the murder, and like many people of his age - 20 - I dare say he was very hard up. Thus when he went to a party in Milan he found himself with nowhere to stay the night. Many a young partygoer ends up sleeping on a floor after missing the last train home.

Some woman Rudy met in Milan in the nighclub and employee of a nursery, gave him the key so he could crash there for the night. She was sacked shortly after. Rudy was caught with a stolen laptop and a knife in his rucksack.

He was charged and convicted - four years later, whilst in jail for the Kercher murder, as an accessory to the murder - of being in possession of a stolen laptop. He was also in possession of a black skin, but outside of apartheid South Africa, that was not a crime.

You'll find all the posters here - apart from me - make the leap of logic that being in possession of stolen property means, "Rudy's MO was as a cat burglar", when all it means is he had a stolen laptop.

Rudy claimed he bought it cheap. Burglars target laptops as they are easy to carry and highly saleable. It follows there is a market for stolen laptops, as there is for stolen mobile phones.

So, whilst Blacks in South Africa are responsible for most violent crime, it is poor logic to conclude, "Rudy is the sole perpetrator based on my knowledge of South African crime."
Vixen,
As LondonJohn and others have pointed out, he should have said he bought it in Perugia.
Perugia is a city if 150,000, and Milan 1,400,000

There is only a small chance a random trade in Milan would involve a Perugian laptop and a Perugian citizen. I would need to be pedantic to explain the statistics here, but if pressed, would.
 
Vixen,
As LondonJohn and others have pointed out, he should have said he bought it in Perugia.
Perugia is a city if 150,000, and Milan 1,400,000

There is only a small chance a random trade in Milan would involve a Perugian laptop and a Perugian citizen. I would need to be pedantic to explain the statistics here, but if pressed, would.

Additionally, what are the odds that the laptop theft and the murder both involved a rock for entry (or in deference to Vixen, a simulated entry ;) ) through a 2nd floor window?
 
Vixen - Mike1711 didn't say anything at all about race relations in his post. You're just making yet another attempt to smear PIPs with accusations of racism.

Oh, why am I bothering?
 
Vixen - Mike1711 didn't say anything at all about race relations in his post. You're just making yet another attempt to smear PIPs with accusations of racism.

Oh, why am I bothering?
As I understand it, Vixen is of your demograph, gender and country.

What I am reflecting on is that what appears to be the toss of a coin confers or deprives legitimacy here.

Who among posters here have not almost forgotten that the Vixens would be crowing and condescending, and proclaiming the well intentioned students of the case as being on the wrong side of history.
I know only too well in my tiny corner that the acquittals saved me from being regarded as an eccentric, and conferred street credibility, so I am listened to on the next case.
Yet the acquittals had nothing to do with the facts.

ETA that last sentence is not quite what I meant to say.
 
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As I understand it, Vixen is of your demograph, gender and country.

What I am reflecting on is that what appears to be the toss of a coin confers or deprives legitimacy here.

Who among posters here have not almost forgotten that the Vixens would be crowing and condescending, and proclaiming the well intentioned students of the case as being on the wrong side of history.
I know only too well in my tiny corner that the acquittals saved me from being regarded as an eccentric, and conferred street credibility, so I am listened to on the next case.
Yet the acquittals had nothing to do with the facts.


Country yes. As for gender and demograph, who can say? I don't think where people are from seems to have as much relevance as some seem to think on these forums.
 
Additionally, what are the odds that the laptop theft and the murder both involved a rock for entry (or in deference to Vixen, a simulated entry ;) ) through a 2nd floor window?

Diddly squat.

It is easier to go to the railway station or the pub - or even a shop [in England, we have shops that will "unlock" stolen mobiles and laptops for you] - and buy your cheapo laptop there.

No income tax. No VAT.

No questions asked.

Look, I am not saying Rudy did not steal the laptop himself. However, there is no compelling reason to reasonably believe he did.

I worked at a place where overnight, burglar s broke in and stole all the computers, hacking off cumbersome cables. It is a very common crime. It is a huge logic fallacy to boldly assert, "Rudy was responsible for all the laptop thefts in Perugia."
 
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