Merged A new argument pro Near Death Experiences

[dlorde]

So, what's the skeptical explanation for the fact that people who have these often do so when their brain wave activity has flatlined, especially those who describe externally verifiable occurrences during that time? Seems to me it's hard to explain this phenomenon in terms of anomalous brain activity when there isn't any such activity going on.

This is brain activity measured via EEG, a summation of millions or billions of neurons firing in synchrony. Not detecting neural activity via EEG doesn't necessarily mean there's no neural activity, it may mean it's too disorganised (insufficiently synchronous) to sum above background noise, or that it's too weak to be detected, or it's too deep (e.g. the cortex is not significantly active). It's conceivable that auditory input could be processed by the deep brain while the cortex is minimally active, and recalled later.

Also, as Pixel42 says, it's difficult to establish the precise temporal correspondence between reported experiences and brain activity. All NDEs are retrospective. For 'traditional' NDEs involving tunnels, lights, meeting relatives, etc., the activity that generates the recalled experience may occur before the brain becomes incapable of it (assuming it does become so incapable) as hypoxia set in, or afterwards, as the brain recovers (as the blood supply is restored, perhaps analogously to the 'pins & needles' of peripheral sensory nerves).

You say, "people who have these often do so when their brain wave activity has flatlined, especially those who describe externally verifiable occurrences during that time". I'd like to see your evidence for this - how many? how often? which descriptions of external events have really been verified? perhaps some links to examples?

I do wonder in how many emergency situations of this kind - where there may be a great deal of confusion, or well-drilled staff are busy focusing on their tasks - a sufficiently precise temporal record of events around the patient is kept to validate reports of conversation, etc., and correlate them with specific times of minimal brain activity. The AWARE study was specifically set up to investigate this in the cardiac emergency/resuscitation rooms of 25 major medical centers, and found only 2% reports of visual awareness during cardiac arrest, and just one 'verifiable period of conscious awareness during which time cerebral function was not expected' (though this expectation was based on the assumption that cerebral function is 'ordinarily absent or at best severely impaired' during cardiac arrest, and wasn't supported with EEG measurement).

 

[MaartenVergu]

You and I have dramatically different ideas about what constitutes evidence. Individual testimonies on YouTube is not evidence. They are not even close to evidence. There are myriad reasons why YouTubers who never had a NDE might claim to have had one.

That's the only evidence we have. You cannot go and measure the tunnel or the light with your instruments. Impossible. Eye witness testimony is the only thing you have to investigate this. Case studies with interviews.

 

[Donn]

That's the only evidence we have. You cannot go and measure the tunnel or the light with your instruments. Impossible. Eye witness testimony is the only thing you have to investigate this. Case studies with interviews.

Hereby you admit it's not scientific; that it's fuzzy. Hereby you admit there's nothing to your ideas. So, what have you learned over the course of this thread?

Seems to me you have two choices:
1. Double-down and keep insisting that your "only evidence" is good enough.
2. Admit that NDEs happen in the mind, which is in the brain, which is the head, while it all faces peril and then returns to normal.

 

[turingtest]

That's the only evidence we have. You cannot go and measure the tunnel or the light with your instruments. Impossible. Eye witness testimony is the only thing you have to investigate this. Case studies with interviews.

Maartenn, if the best you can do for evidence is the vague statistical noise of some other folks' experiences (no, let's don't rehash this, ok? You can go back to the previous page if you don't understand what I mean by that), then you're simply asking a question that's unanswerable by any rational test except one- your own experience. I understand that this is something you need deeply to believe; but you'll find out soon enough. Knowing now one way or the other won't change anything, will it? Just let it go, man- how can you enjoy the life you have now when you're so wrapped up in the death you must have in its own time?

 

[Mojo]

That's the only evidence we have.

Then we have no good evidence.

 

[Daylightstar]

That's the only evidence we have. You cannot go and measure the tunnel or the light with your instruments. Impossible. Eye witness testimony anecdotes is the only thing you have to investigate this. Case anecdote studies with interviews.

^{Corrections by Daylightstar}
There you go, much better.

 

[Joey McGee]

There's nothing new about this theory.

The brain structure and the evolved responses to near-death experiences would be in all people for natural reasons. Any similarity in hallucination and dissociation would be easily explained by this and not proof of the afterlife. This is claimed as good evidence for the afterlife precisely because it is so ambiguous and rejects attempts for legitimate research, not because it is an explanation that rules out all natural explanations...

 

[MaartenVergu]

The remarkable point about these experiences is that each area of the brain processes multiple functions and that "conscious” states such as seeing, thinking, feelings and emotions are mediated in many areas at the same time. What are the chances that the same sequence of networks are active in brains of dying many people (OBE, Seeing the tunnel, experiencing feelings of piece, going through the tunnel (motor cortex) seeing the light (occipital lobs), lifereview (long-term memory), empathie during lifereview (mirrorneurons) etc). This exact same pattern and the exact same sequence of parts of the brain are fyring in a dying person? What are the chances? Very low, in my opinion.

 

[Joey McGee]

I'm not saying he is a liar just an outlier. hehe. As in, the vast consensus is that in cases where zero brain activity is claimed, even if it were accepted that there was low brain activity for a time, the time in between a coma and waking is enough time for these dreams. All of the debunkings of the claims of Eben Alexander go into detail about this.

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/this-must-be-heaven

As you'll see, Alexander's claims all rely on how his brain had zero activity, and these claims are all stupid, and delusional.

For example...

This poetic interpretation of his experience is not supported by evidence of any kind. As you correctly point out, coma does not equate to “inactivation of the cerebral cortex” or “higher-order brain functions totally offline” or “neurons of [my] cortex stunned into complete inactivity”. These describe brain death, a one hundred percent lethal condition. There are many excellent scholarly articles that discuss the definitions of coma. (For example: 1 & 2)

We are not privy to his EEG records, but high alpha activity is common in coma. Also common is “flat” EEG. The EEG can appear flat even in the presence of high activity, when that activity is not synchronous. For example, the EEG flattens in regions involved in direct task processing. This phenomenon is known as event-related desynchronization (hundreds of references).

 

[MaartenVergu]

Joey, I chanced my previous post, sorry for that. Ok. But what do you think about the fact that a certain sequence of networks must fyer in the brain to construct this OBE and NDE.
And in all these brains of dying people, the same procedure of fyering neuronetworks is active. What are the chances?

We are talking about the occipital lobs, the frontal lobs (interpretation), long term memory (livereview), deep feelings of piece, mirrorneurons for empathy etc.

What are the chances that this sequence of neurons are fyering in all these patiens in (almost) the same ordre and their interpretation is almost equal?

 

[Joey McGee]

An oct '14 article on ur buddy Parnia...

http://www.skeptic.com/insight/science-on-the-edge-of-life/

 

[Joey McGee]

Joey, I chanced my post, sorry. Ok. But what do you think about the fact that a certain sequence of networks must fyer in the brain to construct this OBE and NDE.
And in all these brains of dying people, the same procedure of fyering neuronetworks is active. What are the chances?

The phenomenon isn't exactly the same. There are similarities, but there aren't any that are always the same in every case, it's a grouping of reports. It's not exact in any way. In another thread you are trying to teach me about irreducible complexity, and you're making the same mistake here. Something appearing to be amazing and "too much of a coincidence" doesn't preclude a naturalistic explanation.

 

[SezMe]

What are the chances that this sequence of neurons are fyering in all these patiens in (almost) the same ordre and their interpretation is almost equal?

What happens when a car runs low on oil? It overheats. Friction on bearings, pistons, etc. increases. The metal expands. Continued operation eventually causes the engine to seize and DIE.

Doesn't matter what make and model of car. Diesel or gasoline. Manufactured in Japan, Russia, Sweden, etc. Hot weather or cold. In the northern hemisphere or southern hemisphere.

What are the chances that this sequence of neurons are fyering events in all these patiens cars in (almost) the same ordre and their interpretation is almost equal?

 

[turingtest]

Joey, I chanced my previous post, sorry for that. Ok. But what do you think about the fact that a certain sequence of networks must fyer in the brain to construct this OBE and NDE.
And in all these brains of dying people, the same procedure of fyering neuronetworks is active. What are the chances?

We are talking about the occipital lobs, the frontal lobs (interpretation), long term memory (livereview), deep feelings of piece, mirrorneurons for empathy etc.

What are the chances that this sequence of neurons are fyering in all these patiens in (almost) the same ordre and their interpretation is almost equal?

Man, this takes argument from incredulity to a whole new level of silly. Why do you find it so hard to believe that so many of what you yourself admit are basically the same brain undergoing the same process might, in some cases, have the same experience?

 

[marplots]

Joey, I chanced my previous post, sorry for that. Ok. But what do you think about the fact that a certain sequence of networks must fyer in the brain to construct this OBE and NDE.
And in all these brains of dying people, the same procedure of fyering neuronetworks is active. What are the chances?

We are talking about the occipital lobs, the frontal lobs (interpretation), long term memory (livereview), deep feelings of piece, mirrorneurons for empathy etc.

What are the chances that this sequence of neurons are fyering in all these patiens in (almost) the same ordre and their interpretation is almost equal?

The chances are excellent. Just as they are that multiple women will describe the experience of childbirth in a similar way.

When the same thing happens to a similar organ (brain, uterus, whatever), people tend to experience the same types of things. In fact, either explanation for NDEs relies on this.

No matter if the experience is generated by a lack of oxygen or contact with another realm, you are relying on similar causes to produce similar experiences and similar reports. Look elsewhere for a sense of mystery. The similarity of reports tells you nothing important.

 

[Dessi]

The chances are excellent. Just as they are that multiple women will describe the experience of childbirth in a similar way.

Indeed, they are called "Near Birth Experiences"

 

[SezMe]

Indeed, they are called "Near Birth Experiences"

I (as a male) had one of those about 9 months before the kidlet popped out. Is that "near" enough?

 

[Sideroxylon]

I have a new argument pro BSEs:

According to current neuroscience many parts of the brain are involved in the experience of the bed spinning, the wobbling, the nauseus feeling, the words 'Make it stop. I'm going to throw up' etcetera. All after a heavy night on the booze before crashing on the bed.

The verbal cortex, the occipital lobes, the inner ear etc. All must be involved.

Chances are low that the sequence of electric activity in the brain of hundreds of people are almost exactly the same in such a way that they have the same sort of experiences.

To have a BSE, to feel the bed, indeed the whole room wildly spinning, assumes a certain patern of electric activity in the brain.
It must be a big coincidence that the intoxicated brains of all these people are functioning so well that they have the same sequence and patern of electric activity.

It's also about the ontological status of 'the wildly gyrating bed' when many people have the same experience, independent from each other.

 

[Belz...]

That's the only evidence we have. You cannot go and measure the tunnel or the light with your instruments. Impossible.

Actually, we can.

Eye witness testimony is the only thing you have to investigate this.

Oh, and you know what those testimonies tell us ? That oxygen-deprived brains produce these experiences, giving us one possible explanation for NDEs that doesn't involve magical fairies.

 

[Belz...]

What are the chances that the same sequence of networks are active in brains of dying many people

Pretty good, actually, since our brains all work in pretty much the same way.

Your argument is one of incredulity, used to support beliefs you already have.