Merged A new argument pro Near Death Experiences

[Giordano]

How about ABEs- After Birth Experiences? I have had a lot of these. Many of them quite interesting. And I have photos, too!

 

[poblob14]

To have an OBE, to see the tunnel, then the light, then the words: 'it's not your time yet' assumes a certain patern of electric activity in the brain.
It must be a big coincidence that the dying brains of all these people are functioning so well that they have the same sequence and patern of electric activity.

Two minutes of Googling gave me this paper from 1994, which reports that in various studies:

• Indians report seeing messengers from Yama, and no out-of-body experiences.
• Melanesians report sorcerers, but no tunnels.
• Native Americans report no tunnels; they get eagles or moose.
• Medieval Europeans reported tunnels, but no lights or deceased relatives.
• Even contemporary Westerners don't always get the white light.

 

[Aepervius]

Yes, but 'the light', 'the OBE', the tunnel and the lifereview are very common.

And the explanation for it is very common, in fact a normal process apaprently. Did you bother read it up ?

 

[steenkh]

I disagree here. Most NDE's are very specific. The OBE, the tunnel, the light, the words: it's not your time yet. That's very specific.

Show us the research that shows that this specific experience is experienced by "most".

The words "it is not your time yet" is probably a cultural thing: these people know what is expected for an NDE will tend to remember exactly that.

 

[MostlyHarmless]

The words "it is not your time yet" is probably a cultural thing: these people know what is expected for an NDE will tend to remember exactly that.

I would not be surprised if many people in our culture "hear" those words just before they actually do die. I don't think I'll be surprised if I do. Even if I am capable of that at that time.

 

[Slowvehicle]

"More evidence that near death experiences are related to brain activity, not the supernatural"

http://doubtfulnews.com/2015/04/mor...lated-to-brain-activity-not-the-supernatural/

 

[Ladewig]

I don't know. That can be the case, but I'm not convinced.
I recommand you to listen to the testimonies of many NDE'ers on Youtube.

You and I have dramatically different ideas about what constitutes evidence. Individual testimonies on YouTube is not evidence. They are not even close to evidence. There are myriad reasons why YouTubers who never had a NDE might claim to have had one.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

No one has yet read any of the secret messages in actual experiments.

AWARE Results Finally Published – No Evidence of NDE

This is a prospective study of cardiac arrest patients to not only describe their NDEs when they occur, but to conduct a large prospective test looking for objective evidence of conscious awareness during resuscitation. The lead researcher, Sam Parnia, is a believer in NDEs, but designed a study theoretically capable of finding objective evidence.
The multi-center study involved placing an image in a location that was hidden from normal view but could be viewed by a person floating above their body during an NDE. This could be a way to objectively differentiate between the two leading hypotheses. Parnia and others believe that reports of NDEs represent actual awareness during cardiac arrest when the brain is not functioning. This, of course, would be compelling evidence for cognition separate from brain function. ...
... Well that’s disappointing. However, apparently there were no cases of cardiac arrest patients who were able to see, remember, and report the hidden images. Collecting data was more difficult than they hoped, but the results they did get were negative.

Sadly, after the study, the authors published cherry picked results ignoring the most important (or only real) evidence.

Failing to obtain any actual evidence that NDEs represent non-corporeal cognition, Parnia apparently decided to fall back on the old, let’s just report what people say and present that as if it were actual objective evidence.

 

[turingtest]

"More evidence that near death experiences are related to brain activity, not the supernatural"

http://doubtfulnews.com/2015/04/mor...lated-to-brain-activity-not-the-supernatural/

Well, obviously, that just proves that whatever supernatural force is responsible for NDEs in humans is also fond of rats. The rats, if they were revived and could speak, would all tell of a Great Cheese at the end of a maze. I mean, duuuhhhhh...

 

[Jodie]

I don't think it proves that the NDE is just a delusion. The brain activity in these experiments indicates the perception of something.

 

[steenkh]

Perhaps the perception of oxygen starvation?

 

[dlorde]

I don't think it proves that the NDE is just a delusion. The brain activity in these experiments indicates the perception of something.

It's the perception of cerebral hypoxia (if that qualifies as a perception; perhaps 'experience' is more apt).

Neurons short of oxygen and/or overloaded with CO₂ and other metabolic toxins, due to reduced blood flow, will fire spontaneously, particularly in the absence of significant sensory input.

 

[Donn]

Delusion is an experience.

 

[Donn]

I don't know. That can be the case, but I'm not convinced.

The eyes have it.

 

[Donn]

When you are unconscious, you cannot report having a NDE.

A very perceptive comment! It's all post hoc — spoken in words which spring from the soil of culture, fruiting phrases sown deep in our minds by memory we had no will but to form.

To speak, perchance to Recall; Aye, there's the hubbub,
For in that sleep of near death, what memes may come,
When we haven't utterly shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us applause.

— Spamlet, by Tremorlance.

 

[Donn]

Why not a very elaborate jewel and precious metal encrusted bridge with lasers and flashing strobes or those super bright LED flashlights and a neon sign a thousand feet high flashing "HEAVEN"?

No, you silly billy. That's $cientology's Near Dearth Experience. It's what you see when you spend your very last cent, just before the Operating Thetans drag you off to the hole.

 

[Slowvehicle]

A very perceptive comment! It's all post hoc — spoken in words which spring from the soil of culture, fruiting phrases sown deep in our minds by memory we had no will but to form.

To speak, perchance to Recall; Aye, there's the hubbub,
For in that sleep of near death, what memes may come,
When we haven't utterly shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us applause.

— Spamlet, by Tremorlance.

 

[BobR]

I'm curious about NDE's myself, always have been since I heard the story when I was a kid about my grandfather having one when the Spanish flu almost killed him back in 1919 or so.

So, what's the skeptical explanation for the fact that people who have these often do so when their brain wave activity has flatlined, especially those who describe externally verifiable occurrences during that time? Seems to me it's hard to explain this phenomenon in terms of anomalous brain activity when there isn't any such activity going on.

 

[Pixel42]

I'm curious about NDE's myself, always have been since I heard the story when I was a kid about my grandfather having one when the Spanish flu almost killed him back in 1919 or so.

So, what's the skeptical explanation for the fact that people who have these often do so when their brain wave activity has flatlined, especially those who describe externally verifiable occurrences during that time? Seems to me it's hard to explain this phenomenon in terms of anomalous brain activity when there isn't any such activity going on.

Even if they did indeed flat line for a period there was brain activity before and after that period. There is no reason to assume any experiences they later relate occurred during the flatline period rather than before or after it. Claims of experiencing externally verifable occurrences during the flat line period never stand up to investigation, and experiments attempting to obtain objective evidence of such claims have had negative results.

 

[SezMe]

Other argument: these experiences are not chaotic at all,

You don't know that. Not all NDEs proceed according to your idealized model.

what you expect from an injuried dying brain.

Who's this "you", kemosabe? Can you cite where the expectations of an injured, dying brain have been established?

A dying brain cannot produce such harmonious experiences full of meaning and very vividly.

Bald assertion with no basis whatsoever.

It's a contradicition.

Bald assertion with no basis whatsoever.

A good working brain can produce these beautiful experiences. But not a dying damaged brain.

Bald assertion with no basis whatsoever.

From a dying brain you expect chaotic hallucinations.

Again with the "you" stuff. Who is "you? Can I suggest that you either speak for yourself or cite sources for more general assertions.

In short, you post was simply vacuous.