Leelah Alcorn, transgender teen, commited suicide

[xjx388]

Attraction is based on a variety of things and is an ongoing process that never really ends. Discovering qualities about a person later can effect attraction.

And it can be little things. I used to think Jessica Alba was extremely attractive, for example, but then I saw her smoking in some picture and that absolutely killed it.

If being trans is a big enough deal to have major surgery or even kill oneself over it, I don't think it's fair to act like it should be no big deal for a potential mate.

That's kind of why it's a big enough deal to kill yourself over it -that it is such a turnoff to so many people. It can seem like you will never find love or be happy. I can totally empathize with this girl.

 

[dirtywick]

Exactly. That's my whole point.



Or not. Depends. Even if it does, maybe by that point, you are able to accept things you wouldn't have at the beginning of the relationship? In fact, this isn't a stretch in any way. As relationships grow, you find out things that you might not like, that if they had shown up early on, maybe it would have killed the relationship. But once you are in, you look at all those great things about the other person and those negatives can be overlooked?

How can anyone say that this wouldn't happen to them with a trans person?

Someone mentioned not being attracted to tattoos earlier in the thread. What would happen if you got to the sex part and discovered a tattoo on a spot that you couldn't otherwise see. Let's make it a really obnoxious tattoo with the person's ex's name even. Can you say now that it would be enough to make you want to end the relationship? It might, sure, but then again, by that point, maybe you can overlook that tattoo because of all the other attractive features of the person? How can anyone say for sure until you are in that position?

Depends on the person. But a person must choose what is and isn't important in attraction. Gender is probably the biggest single criteria for almost every person in the world.

 

[pgwenthold]

If you aren't going to take other peoples word for how they feel about things

But they aren't talking about actual "things" they are talking about concepts and abstractions.

It's real easy to say you aren't attracted to X, but that means little in terms of the question of whether you are attracted to person Y, who has feature X, but you don't learn that until you have already explored aspects A - W, the sum total of which you find very attractive.

Certainly the number of people who think it is a dealbreaker learning about it 2 months into a relationship is going to be smaller than the number who would call it a non-starter. Because once you are in a relationship, things can change.

 

[pgwenthold]

Depends on the person. But a person must choose what is and isn't important in attraction. Gender is probably the biggest single criteria for almost every person in the world.

Yes, and so a guy wants to date someone who is a female gender.

Isn't that what a trans-woman is?

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding something.

You meet an attractive woman, you ask her out, you date, you are having a great time, it starts getting heavy and you discover that she is a trans-female and has a penis. Now, none of the things that attracted you to her so far have gone away. She looks just the same as she did when you found her attractive, she still makes you laugh, she still likes to do the same things she did before. Do those things not appeal to you any more? They should, because those are apparently things you like. Finding that all along she had a penis does not change her sense of humor that you liked.

 

[shuttlt]

But they aren't talking about actual "things" they are talking about concepts and abstractions.

It's real easy to say you aren't attracted to X, but that means little in terms of the question of whether you are attracted to person Y, who has feature X, but you don't learn that until you have already explored aspects A - W, the sum total of which you find very attractive.

Certainly the number of people who think it is a dealbreaker learning about it 2 months into a relationship is going to be smaller than the number who would call it a non-starter. Because once you are in a relationship, things can change.

If you want to call them abstract concepts, fine... But they are so interwoven into me and old that I'm not confident I could entirely shrug them off for anyone. Maybe I could. Some people clearly try and fail. Whether people in fact do easily overcome this is probably something to ask a transsexual. If you are one, then that might make a difference.

Incidentally, it occurred to me that part of the issue might be connected to knowing there would be many social consequence to dating a trans person but, unless you have experience of it, being unable to quantify what one was taking on. The kid in the thread seems to have seen huge downsides to being trans. I think that that alone would be a lot to get ones head around.

 

[pgwenthold]

But they are so interwoven into me and old that I'm not confident I could entirely shrug them off for anyone.

And I'm not so sure you wouldn't. Good, we are in agreement.

 

[shuttlt]

Here's another way to ask the question. Why in the world, would the concept of gender and attraction that I developed before I knew what little I do know about neurology or trans sexuals necessarily map onto what ever the latest findings are? If it was determined tomorrow somehow that actually transsexuals were in fact not neurologically female in any way and were just "confused" should a heterosexual man then suddenly stop wanting to date mtf women because they aren't actually women? Why do the subject and the object have to share a common definition of the objects gender?

 

[dirtywick]

Yes, and so a guy wants to date someone who is a female gender.

Isn't that what a trans-woman is?

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding something.

You meet an attractive woman, you ask her out, you date, you are having a great time, it starts getting heavy and you discover that she is a trans-female and has a penis. Now, none of the things that attracted you to her so far have gone away. She looks just the same as she did when you found her attractive, she still makes you laugh, she still likes to do the same things she did before. Do those things not appeal to you any more? They should, because those are apparently things you like. Finding that all along she had a penis does not change her sense of humor that you liked.

One of the things that many men look for in a mate is a vagina.

You seem to agree that there are a variety of factors that effect attraction. Certainly you can accept that sexual organs are one of those factors? I mean, the gay community has spent decades, maybe centuries, convincing society in general that it's OK that people with the same genitals are attracted to each other and we should respect that. I don't know how to argue that the reverse is also true besides that it's self evident. Some men and some women simply aren't going to want to be in a relationship with a trans.

 

[pgwenthold]

One of the things that many men look for in a mate is a vagina.

You seem to agree that there are a variety of factors that effect attraction..

Yes.

It is those who claim that it is a dealbreaker who are suggesting that attraction is not a consequence of a variety of factors. They are the ones who are making it an issue of a single feature.

That's my whole point. Attraction results from a multitude of factors. So how can anyone say that one single one is going to trump everything else?

As I said, it might create a non-starter, but once you have factors A-W that you find attractive, how can you say that factor X will trump that unless you know what A-W actually are? Shutitt expresses concern that there may not be any combination of A-W that would be enough, but seriously, how can you know until you have A-W in hand and are faced with X?

 

[shuttlt]

Here's another one.... I feel less bothered by the idea of being attracted by somebody who is physically a born-woman, but self identifies as a man than the idea of being attracted to a born-man who self identifies as a woman regardless of surgery. how does that map onto their neurological implementation of gender?

 

[pgwenthold]

One of the things that many men look for in a mate is a vagina.
.

We may say that, but see my scenario above. You meet an attractive woman, go through initial courting rituals, and everything is perfect except you find out 2 mos down the road that she has a penis.

He may have been assuming that she had a vagina, but clearly having a vagina was not what he was "looking for." He was looking for so much more than in a mate, and we all do.

 

[Belz...]

Yes, and so a guy wants to date someone who is a female gender.

Isn't that what a trans-woman is?

I think at this point that we're a bit all fuzzy about what "man" and "woman" is. I guess it's simpler to say that you know what you want when you see it.

 

[dirtywick]

Yes.

It is those who claim that it is a dealbreaker who are suggesting that attraction is not a consequence of a variety of factors. They are the ones who are making it an issue of a single feature.

That's my whole point. Attraction results from a multitude of factors. So how can anyone say that one single one is going to trump everything else?

Are you saying it can't be? The factors are given different weight. Penis or vagina is a pretty big factor for many people. Do you think that most people would change their sexual orientation that easily?

As I said, it might create a non-starter, but once you have factors A-W that you find attractive, how can you say that factor X will trump that unless you know what A-W actually are? Shutitt expresses concern that there may not be any combination of A-W that would be enough, but seriously, how can you know until you have A-W in hand and are faced with X?

Again, this sounds very similar to curing homosexuals.

 

[Butter!]

Well, I can only speak for myself, but I said earlier that no penis IS a sexual dealbreaker for me. And no sex is ultimately a romantic dealbreaker. So, by the transitive property of equalities, no penis is ultimately a romantic dealbreaker.

I can't help that. Outside of a sexual/romantic context, I don't care a fig what bits anyone has, have no problem acknowledging them as the gender they please, happily welcome them into whatever restroom they want, etc. It certainly wouldn't affect a friendship, living arrangement, or any other type of non-sexual relationship I might have with the individual. But I need a penis in a mate, period. I know that absolutely.

Is this bigotry? Surely not?


ETA - I should say no sexever is ultimately a romantic dealbreaker. I'm certainly more than patient in that area. But there's no amount of build-up that could make me sexually attracted to lady-bits. There just isn't. We could be the best of dear friends in the world, but sex wouldn't work. If it's a hang-up, then it's a hang-up I guess.

 

[shuttlt]

Yes.

It is those who claim that it is a dealbreaker who are suggesting that attraction is not a consequence of a variety of factors. They are the ones who are making it an issue of a single feature.

That's my whole point. Attraction results from a multitude of factors. So how can anyone say that one single one is going to trump everything else?

As I said, it might create a non-starter, but once you have factors A-W that you find attractive, how can you say that factor X will trump that unless you know what A-W actually are? Shutitt expresses concern that there may not be any combination of A-W that would be enough, but seriously, how can you know until you have A-W in hand and are faced with X?

Maybe if I met just the right boy, I'd want to **** him and Oscar Wilde just never met the right girl. I suppose one can't discount the possibility, but just because there may theoretically be failure cases doesn't mean that words like gay, cis etc... have no meaning.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Are you saying it can't be? The factors are given different weight. Penis or vagina is a pretty big factor for many people. Do you think that most people would change their sexual orientation that easily?

For some sure. But it isn't gay men who are hiring transwomen prostitutes.

 

[pgwenthold]

Are you saying it can't be? The factors are given different weight. Penis or vagina is a pretty big factor for many people. Do you think that most people would change their sexual orientation that easily?
.

I'M NOT THE ONE MAKING ABSOLUTE CLAIMS!

See isissxn's claim below that no penis is a dealbreaker.

I am suggesting that no one can actually say that unless they know the full deal in the first place.

See my scenario above of a woman who won't have sex for personal reasons and will only give blow jobs. How would you respond? Doesn't it kind of depend on the full set of circumstances?

 

[shuttlt]

ETA - I should say no sexever is ultimately a romantic dealbreaker. I'm certainly more than patient in that area. But there's no amount of build-up that could make me sexually attracted to lady-bits. There just isn't. We could be the best of dear friends in the world, but sex wouldn't work. If it's a hang-up, then it's a hang-up I guess.

Maybe if you practiced it enough? I remember being told you couldn't learn to curl your tongue, you either could do it or you couldn't. So I practiced in the bathroom mirror until I could. Given enough penises and vaginas perhaps we could both get over our hang ups?

 

[Butter!]

Maybe if you practiced it enough? I remember being told you couldn't learn to curl your tongue, you either could do it or you couldn't. So I practiced in the bathroom mirror until I could. Given enough penises and vaginas perhaps we could both get over our hang ups?

Perhaps, but I'd feel bad for the girls or transmen on whom I practiced. Even if practice could get one over such ingrained preferences, it would mean starting from my current position. Which means I would inevitably be squicked (if only at first), and that wouldn't be at all fair to my partners.

 

[Butter!]

I'M NOT THE ONE MAKING ABSOLUTE CLAIMS!

See isissxn's claim below that no penis is a dealbreaker.

I am suggesting that no one can actually say that unless they know the full deal in the first place.

See my scenario above of a woman who won't have sex for personal reasons and will only give blow jobs. How would you respond? Doesn't it kind of depend on the full set of circumstances?

Well, let's put it this way. I have tried. Does that help bolster my claim at all?

I have attempted sexual activity with multiple vagina-possessing people at different points in my life. They were otherwise terrific individuals whom I loved. But it did not work. I was turned off as soon as the genitals came out. Every time.

So now I don't try any more.


ETA - Like I said above, it's not fair to them.