Leelah Alcorn, transgender teen, commited suicide

[Aepervius]

Their validity is judged for all kinds of things. What rejections for your past would you not accept? I take issue with people who reject partners for their religious history, ethnicity, or sexual history as well. And I suspect you would take issue with some things that people use to determine who is a valid partner as well.

30 years ago i would have rejected some of those limit.

Nowadays I simply accept them as acceptable sexual quirk and preference, as long as both (or all if more than 2) sides are consenting. Yes even those limiting depending on skin color, religion, hair color, or whatever.


ETA: to make it clear , now my only criteria in what limit are acceptable is solely : ability to consent and having consented. After that everybody is free to set the limit personal they want. If they don't want "atheist blond haired girl", because they find them abhorrent, then it is perfectly acceptable *sexually*. Those limit one set are personal, and should be accepted by other as being the taste of the person.

There is no accounting for taste.

 

[shuttlt]

Their validity is judged for all kinds of things. What rejections for your past would you not accept? I take issue with people who reject partners for their religious history, ethnicity, or sexual history as well. And I suspect you would take issue with some things that people use to determine who is a valid partner as well.

Are they taking issue with people of a different religion for supposedly rational, explicable reasons? I can see that one might take issue with that. But insisting that somebody should see somebody else, or some group of people, as a plausible subject for sex for moral/ethical reasons doesn't seem problematic to me.

 

[ponderingturtle]

30 years ago i would have rejected some of those limit.

Nowadays I simply accept them as acceptable sexual quirk and preference, as long as both (or all if more than 2) sides are consenting. Yes even those limiting depending on skin color, religion, hair color, or whatever.


ETA: to make it clear , now my only criteria in what limit are acceptable is solely : ability to consent and having consented. After that everybody is free to set the limit personal they want. If they don't want "atheist blond haired girl", because they find them abhorrent, then it is perfectly acceptable *sexually*. Those limit one set are personal, and should be accepted by other as being the taste of the person.

There is no accounting for taste.

I made a point about former not current religion. Race and who someone is attracted to is complicated, but saying say only Italians not greeks or such being right out?

So you wouldn't think someone is odd because they wouldn't date anyone raised catholic regardless of their current religion?

 

[Aepervius]

I made a point about former not current religion. Race and who someone is attracted to is complicated, but saying say only Italians not greeks or such being right out?

So you wouldn't think someone is odd because they wouldn't date anyone raised catholic regardless of their current religion?

No i would not find that more odd than other sexual preference of people I met and dated over the years.

ETA: In fact that already happen frankly, as in my family my tante was cathos, and converted to protestantism, but was never accepted by the family of my uncle (ETA: they were protestant).

 

[Belz...]

To which I can only answer : everyone has its taste and its limit.

What I disagree is with people which want to say like in this thread, that some limit are not valid.

Indeed. It's like saying that not liking broccoli is somehow wrong. Saying you don't like eating broccoli doesn't mean you want to exterminate the species.

 

[Belz...]

I take issue with people who reject partners for their religious history, ethnicity, or sexual history as well.

Why ? Why shouldn't people pick partners based on personal preferences ? Isn't the whole point of choosing a partner to be with a person you are comfortable with ?

 

[luchog]

Or maybe it's about the truck driver's being forced to participate in (not witness) someone's suicide being equally as important as the suicide of the mistreated, unfortunate, and depressed teenager.

It should be, and for some of us it is. The problem is that certain other people here are using it as an excuse to demonize Leelah and dismiss her pain and suffering out of hand.

 

[Butter!]

It should be, and for some of us it is. The problem is that certain other people here are using it as an excuse to demonize Leelah and dismiss her pain and suffering out of hand.

Yes. This.

 

[Belz...]

It should be, and for some of us it is. The problem is that certain other people here are using it as an excuse to demonize Leelah and dismiss her pain and suffering out of hand.

Exactly. When I read the news I told of it to my wife and I said "and that poor truck driver." But I did not use his current and future pain as some sort of damper on the dead teen's past pain and his/her parent's responsibilities.

 

[luchog]

If I'm understanding correctly, I've seen this discussed in one or two essays, but it's a subject that's difficult to bring up.

Gender dysphoric people, the ones who insist on sex changes, are emphasizing that gender is binary. They're on one side of the fence, and they want to be on the other.

No, this is untrue. Transgender people are forced into a binary gender identity by cultural pressures. For those who wish to change their physical sex, pre-transition counseling emphasizes not just a strictly binary view of gender, but a very stereotyped one as well; and this is required for a transition to be legally recognized, at least in the US.

Transgendered individuals who do not identify with a strictly binary view of gender (such as myself) typically do not transition, or if they do so, they go overseas for a considerable amount of time first. There are some exceptions, of course, and some Transgenders are obtaining support for non-binary physical modifications; but legal status is still firmly invested in a highly stereotyped binary, and they are still forced into a male-female dichotomy.

 

[pgwenthold]

Why ? Why shouldn't people pick partners based on personal preferences ? Isn't the whole point of choosing a partner to be with a person you are comfortable with ?

How can you "choose a partner" based on whether they are trans or not trans? I don't think it's realistic in any way.

Here's the problem: how does courtship work? You meet somewhere, you talk, you text, you get together in some situation, you date. If dates are going well, the relationship advances to something sexual. In this whole process, where does the "trans" part matter? Only at the last step in this list.

OK, let's say you get to that step in the list, and you find out the person is trans. How will you respond? Oh, it's easy to say that you just drop them then and there, but are you sure? Maybe you've actually fell in love with this person? Even so, you can't say that you can't be attracted to a trans person, because, you know what? You have been, totally attracted to a trans person.

Or are you the type of person who can't love someone unless they have sex "the right way", the way you want? What if it was a female who wouldn't have sex but only gave blow jobs. If she told you that, would you dump her? Or is our attraction about so much more than just that?

So unless they tell you, or you have a taxi cab driver friend like Crocodile Dundee telling you someone is trans, I really don't know how you can "choose" a partner based on whether they are trans or not. A lot of romantic attraction happens before sex occurs.

 

[shuttlt]

Interesting lunchdog. I wonder whether part of this is rooted in a "like me", "not like me" binary classification. Doing without it sounds simultaneously glorious and terrible.

 

[The Atheist]

Very good piece here on the subject: http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2014/12/31/3607382/leelah-alcorn-transgender-genocide/

 

[Butter!]

How can you "choose a partner" based on whether they are trans or not trans? I don't think it's realistic in any way.

Here's the problem: how does courtship work? You meet somewhere, you talk, you text, you get together in some situation, you date. If dates are going well, the relationship advances to something sexual. In this whole process, where does the "trans" part matter? Only at the last step in this list.

OK, let's say you get to that step in the list, and you find out the person is trans. How will you respond? Oh, it's easy to say that you just drop them then and there, but are you sure? Maybe you've actually fell in love with this person? Even so, you can't say that you can't be attracted to a trans person, because, you know what? You have been, totally attracted to a trans person.

Or are you the type of person who can't love someone unless they have sex "the right way", the way you want? What if it was a female who wouldn't have sex but only gave blow jobs. If she told you that, would you dump her? Or is our attraction about so much more than just that?

So unless they tell you, or you have a taxi cab driver friend like Crocodile Dundee telling you someone is trans, I really don't know how you can "choose" a partner based on whether they are trans or not. A lot of romantic attraction happens before sex occurs.

Sure, but it can be a dealbreaker for some regardless of how well things were going leading up to the revelation/sexual contact/whatever. People in this very thread have said it would be a dealbreaker for them. Belz...what just commenting on that fact, I believe, so scolding him is unwarranted.

 

[Belz...]

How can you "choose a partner" based on whether they are trans or not trans? I don't think it's realistic in any way.

Of course it is: when you learn they are trans (or whatever it is you feel you can't handle), you break it off.

OK, let's say you get to that step in the list, and you find out the person is trans. How will you respond? Oh, it's easy to say that you just drop them then and there, but are you sure?

You seem to be under the mistaken assumption that I said something about myself, there. All I said is that everyone has likes and dislikes about the partners they want, and what's unrealistic is asking people to ignore those on the basis of some silly social principle.

Maybe you've actually fell in love with this person? Even so, you can't say that you can't be attracted to a trans person, because, you know what? You have been, totally attracted to a trans person.

Irrelevant. Your feelings for something is also the sum total of all the finer details. If a new element tips things the other way, you can totally not be attracted to that person anymore.

Or are you the type of person who can't love someone unless they have sex "the right way", the way you want?

Where the hell did that come from ? Could you step down from that moral high ground, there ?

What if it was a female who wouldn't have sex but only gave blow jobs. If she told you that, would you dump her?

Depends on your personal preferences and feelings.

Or is our attraction about so much more than just that?

Depends on the person.

So unless they tell you, or you have a taxi cab driver friend like Crocodile Dundee telling you someone is trans, I really don't know how you can "choose" a partner based on whether they are trans or not. A lot of romantic attraction happens before sex occurs.

I don't think you understood my post at all.

 

[shuttlt]

OK, let's say you get to that step in the list, and you find out the person is trans. How will you respond? Oh, it's easy to say that you just drop them then and there, but are you sure? Maybe you've actually fell in love with this person? Even so, you can't say that you can't be attracted to a trans person, because, you know what? You have been, totally attracted to a trans person.

I don't get why you aren't willing to take people's word on this. It's been posted elsewhere in the thread that it's not uncommon for trans people to be attacked at this point. I would be stunned if I attacked anybody, but it would be a significant surprise and would take significant adjusting to. I'm not saying I couldn't adjust. I don't know. I can imagine that for the right person I would try to get past it, assuming my wife didn't mind, but it's a big bump in the road.

 

[dirtywick]

How can you "choose a partner" based on whether they are trans or not trans? I don't think it's realistic in any way.

Here's the problem: how does courtship work? You meet somewhere, you talk, you text, you get together in some situation, you date. If dates are going well, the relationship advances to something sexual. In this whole process, where does the "trans" part matter? Only at the last step in this list.

OK, let's say you get to that step in the list, and you find out the person is trans. How will you respond? Oh, it's easy to say that you just drop them then and there, but are you sure? Maybe you've actually fell in love with this person? Even so, you can't say that you can't be attracted to a trans person, because, you know what? You have been, totally attracted to a trans person.

Or are you the type of person who can't love someone unless they have sex "the right way", the way you want? What if it was a female who wouldn't have sex but only gave blow jobs. If she told you that, would you dump her? Or is our attraction about so much more than just that?

So unless they tell you, or you have a taxi cab driver friend like Crocodile Dundee telling you someone is trans, I really don't know how you can "choose" a partner based on whether they are trans or not. A lot of romantic attraction happens before sex occurs.

Attraction is based on a variety of things and is an ongoing process that never really ends. Discovering qualities about a person later can effect attraction.

If being trans is a big enough deal to have major surgery or even kill oneself over it, I don't think it's fair to act like it should be no big deal for a potential mate.

 

[pgwenthold]

I don't get why you aren't willing to take people's word on this. .

Because their "word" is not based on reality, it's based on an abstraction.

You come off the 5th date with someone that you are really enjoying and still tell me that being trans is a dealbreaker I might believe it. Maybe, but even then, it's still in the abstract.

 

[pgwenthold]

Attraction is based on a variety of things and is an ongoing process that never really ends.

Exactly. That's my whole point.

Discovering qualities about a person later can effect attraction.
.

Or not. Depends. Even if it does, maybe by that point, you are able to accept things you wouldn't have at the beginning of the relationship? In fact, this isn't a stretch in any way. As relationships grow, you find out things that you might not like, that if they had shown up early on, maybe it would have killed the relationship. But once you are in, you look at all those great things about the other person and those negatives can be overlooked?

How can anyone say that this wouldn't happen to them with a trans person?

Someone mentioned not being attracted to tattoos earlier in the thread. What would happen if you got to the sex part and discovered a tattoo on a spot that you couldn't otherwise see. Let's make it a really obnoxious tattoo with the person's ex's name even. Can you say now that it would be enough to make you want to end the relationship? It might, sure, but then again, by that point, maybe you can overlook that tattoo because of all the other attractive features of the person? How can anyone say for sure until you are in that position?

 

[shuttlt]

Because their "word" is not based on reality, it's based on an abstraction.

You come off the 5th date with someone that you are really enjoying and still tell me that being trans is a dealbreaker I might believe it. Maybe, but even then, it's still in the abstract.

If you aren't going to take other peoples word for how they feel about things and instead insist on proceeding based on principles, I don't know what more to say. To restate what I've already said...

As far as I am concerned who and what a man is and who and what a woman is is something that is learned in early childhood. I was identifying people as male, or female and identifying myself as male since before I knew the words. The categories were well established in me, and their nuances, connotations, and associations were long established before I'd heard of gay, let alone transsexual. My sexual identity has developed around all this. Even that ignores cultural/social pressures. That's justifying after the fact though. All I can report directly is that it wouldn't be an inconsequential nothing that I could shrug off without missing a beat.