• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Leelah Alcorn, transgender teen, commited suicide

So even though people have no idea what they mean when they say it and can not define what the difference is between one who fits the category in their mind and one who does not.
The word "male" has a myriad of meanings and connotations. For most purposes it maps well onto "born male". Manifestly applying the word to someone born with a vagina puts the definition under strain for many people. If it didn't we wouldn't be talking and there wouldn't be this whole thing about wanting trans people to be included. I don't recall being sat down and learning the definition of male and then beginning to categorise people. One learns the meaning of words through usage, not from definitions. One necessarily goes about categorising people as men and women all day long. I don't check against a definition.

The problem here isn't that the common usage of "male" is broken, it's that people don't like the common usage.
 
One necessarily goes about categorising people as men and women all day long. I don't check against a definition.

The problem here isn't that the common usage of "male" is broken, it's that people don't like the common usage.

And one can be wrong more often than one knows. Yes, the usage is both broken and can be hurtful.
 
No, they came from different origions as well. Gender from language, as there are plenty of languages with more than two genders. Like inanimate and such.

And here I was carefully trying to avoid bringing up the linguistic sense of "gender", I've been through too many pointless online fights about that with English-speakers, a language without grammatical gender, who can't seem to understand that biological sex and grammatical gender aren't the same thing, or even necessarily related.

But back when I was studying linguistics, I never heard the word "gender" applied to categories such as "inanimate". It was reserved for languages that had the traditional three Indo-European genders of masculine/feminine/neuter, for historical reasons. Otherwise, or when talking generally about all languages, the term "noun classes" is used. With Swahili, for instance, having ten of them, none of them related to biological sex, it would sound a bit silly referring to them as "genders".
 
But I am. I am talking about which "objects" should be considered "black." You know that no one is purely "white" or "black" as defined by the physical appearance of skin color. People are an entire range of skin color. Surprise: people are also an entire range of gender. So neither is really easy or correct to put in one category or another.
It depends on the context who falls into what category. People still seem to be able to use these words to communicate and be understood.
 
I wondered about that too and talked about it with a transgendered friend of mine (who also happens to be gay) and he agreed that it was strange. Gender and sexual orientation are not linked (well, statistically they are, since most people identify as straight) so why lump gender identity and sexual identity together into one 'community'?
I'm afraid it has something to do with the fact that both groups are (have been?) seen as deviants by society at large. And the presumption that someone who has an issue with their genitals will have a sexual reason for it. So the budding trans movement could only look to the gay community for support, since in the public's eye, they're all dirty weirdo's anyway.

They kind of are linked (or at least not totally distinct). A large portion of transgender children turn out to be gay instead of transgender by the time they reach adolescence. I think very few transgender people are gay in terms of gender identity compared with the general population. I imagine that psychologically gender identity and sexual orientation influence each other.
 
And one can be wrong more often than one knows. Yes, the usage is both broken and can be hurtful.
I don't see how it is broken, unless you impose a particular definition on it and then say "look it doesn't fit the definition". Hurtful, sure.
 
Last edited:
It depends on the context who falls into what category. People still seem to be able to use these words to communicate and be understood.

Any time one of my students speaks of a "black" person, or a "white" person, we have the discussion about how important such a superficial (!) judgment can be, if it is so inherently false-to-fact. By the end of the semester, most are carefully and comfortable using "pe3rson with dark brown skin", "person with light brownskin", "person with beige skin", and the like.

For "sex", the proper descriptors are "male" & "female" (as well as "other", or "ambiguous", or "both-in-some-combination").

For "gender, the proper descriptors are "masculine", and "femenine" (or the less judgmental "gendernomative" and "non-gendernormative", or "gender nonconforming"). It is worth noting that these classifications tend to be localized geographically,temporally, and socially...
 
The word "male" has a myriad of meanings and connotations. For most purposes it maps well onto "born male". Manifestly applying the word to someone born with a vagina puts the definition under strain for many people. If it didn't we wouldn't be talking and there wouldn't be this whole thing about wanting trans people to be included. I don't recall being sat down and learning the definition of male and then beginning to categorise people. One learns the meaning of words through usage, not from definitions. One necessarily goes about categorising people as men and women all day long. I don't check against a definition.

The problem here isn't that the common usage of "male" is broken, it's that people don't like the common usage.

So those men with that weird condition that they appear to be born female are not real men even though they can procreate?

It is around the the edges that definitions are cut. That is why Pluto isn't a planet anymore, because 9 planets is an untenable number, it is either 8 or a much higher number. So pluto lost out as a planet, just like Ceres did as well.
 
They kind of are linked (or at least not totally distinct). A large portion of transgender children turn out to be gay instead of transgender by the time they reach adolescence. I think very few transgender people are gay in terms of gender identity compared with the general population. I imagine that psychologically gender identity and sexual orientation influence each other.

Evidence? What is being used to identify a trans child? There is a difference between an effeminate boy and a transgirl who always want to wear dresses and be called by a female name.
 
I think a large part of transphobia originates when straight men start thinking of how awful they would feel if they accidental had sex with a trans woman. I think this ridiculous fear is so strong, that even though we're talking about a girl who is dead, the first thing some guys think about when the word "trans" is uttered is the horrible possibility of sticking their penis into a "man".

Very good point, and it's not helped by things like Jim Carrey's Movie, Ace Ventura, Pet Detective, where he is physically sick when he realises the woman he had sex with used to be a man.

I don't know if it's been pointed out, but the fact that there are people who are physically male or female, but feel like they are actually the opposite should indicate that the issue of gender is just a bit more complicated than what we have tucked between our legs.

Well said, and worth repeating, I thought.
 
So those men with that weird condition that they appear to be born female are not real men even though they can procreate?

It is around the the edges that definitions are cut. That is why Pluto isn't a planet anymore, because 9 planets is an untenable number, it is either 8 or a much higher number. So pluto lost out as a planet, just like Ceres did as well.
Pretty much any categorisation method you choose will have gray areas, it's in the nature of putting the complicated real world into boxes. I'm not arguing for a particular definition as "better". Clearly people who were born women are problematic for the conventional/traditional category "male". If it wasn't problematic, there would be nothing for people to be pissed about. The issue is that people don't like the usage for political/ethical reasons, or is this actually an exercise in pedantry?
 
Personally, for me, fertility has nothing to do with it. It might or might no be important in its own right. Potentially it is something that one really ought to tell a partner, but I don't see that the two issues are particularly linked psychologically. I guess one could make a case for the underlying reasons for the psychology, but that's digressing even further from the point.

I somewhat agree with thus.

I'm bi and one of the first things i will do when entering into a relationship is inform the person, male or female, of this.

Do i feel i should have to? No I'd love if it was a non issue, but i know done people have serious problems with it, so it is something i need to be up front about.

I guess my question is, knowing that done people have large issues with Trans people, isn't it just the thoughtful thing to do, to be up front with possible mattress about it?
 
They kind of are linked (or at least not totally distinct). A large portion of transgender children turn out to be gay instead of transgender by the time they reach adolescence.

Definition of "transgender children", please?

I think very few transgender people are gay in terms of gender identity compared with the general population.

Definition of "gay in terms of gender identity", please?
 
I somewhat agree with thus.

I'm bi and one of the first things i will do when entering into a relationship is inform the person, male or female, of this.

Do i feel i should have to? No I'd love if it was a non issue, but i know done people have serious problems with it, so it is something i need to be up front about.

I guess my question is, knowing that done people have large issues with Trans people, isn't it just the thoughtful thing to do, to be up front with possible mattress about it?
I think I agree absolutely. In an ideal world, you shouldn't need to say and the whole thing would be a non-issue. This world isn't an ideal world though.
 
Last edited:
I'm not sure why there needs to be an "objective measure".

Maybe there doesn't. I'm not sure that there needs to be any measure at all. Why is it that we need to have any differentiation between men and women? Why is it that it is important for a person to be called a man or to be called a woman? Why is it important to someone taking off his or her clothing whether the person or people observing them is a man or a woman? Why does anyone care about that sort of thing?

I don't have answers to any of those questions, but it does indeed seem very important to people. Almost everyone seems concerned with it.

In particular, supporters of the idea that gender is determined by self identification seem to think it is important that the self identification matches the social identification. In other words, if a person calls themself a woman, other people should agree and also call them a woman. (Pardon the grammar there, but, well, pronouns can get tricky in this case. It seemed better than "himself" and "him") In this thread, the parents have been vilified, and prosecution has been suggested, because they refused to call Leelah by her chosen name and treat her as her chosen gender. It is apparently very, very, important that everyone agree with the self identification.

So, transgender supporters think that this categorization is critical and definite, but not based on anything that can be verified.


This makes it different than any of your other categories. In all of your examples, there either is an objective measure (right or left handed), or the definitions are vague and indistinct (liberal, conservative, cat fancier), or they are quite distinct, but represent categories where a person can be mostly in one category, but somewhat in a different category. (gay, straight, cat fancier).

I'm perfectly willing to call a transgender "partly male" and "partly female", but that wouldn't be considered acceptable to the party line.


So that's where I think there is a contradiction. We are asked to believe that the proper categorization is necessary for happiness, but based solely on state of mind.
 
The word "male" has a myriad of meanings and connotations. For most purposes it maps well onto "born male". Manifestly applying the word to someone born with a vagina puts the definition under strain for many people. If it didn't we wouldn't be talking and there wouldn't be this whole thing about wanting trans people to be included.

True enough.

However, there's a third category and a serious problem. Maybe more as well, but I'll talk about this third category, partially because I'm in it. Maybe someone else will snot on me and tell me I'm missing the point, thus saying more about their mindset than mine.

There is something about the transgender talk that is quite in common with the cisgender talk. That is, that male is male, and female is female, and never the twain shall meet.

It's implicit in the blithe slide from "gender dysphoric" to "transgender" to "transitioning is the cure." It's implicit in the insistence that "man" means this and not that, which may be along a different axis from usual but still is insistence that it means something definite and real. (Of course, then the hammering of people for using it the "wrong" way and claiming that it's about facts rather than convention.)

Just because someone is unhappy with their birth gender doesn't mean they're going to be happy with the other, "reassigned" gender either.

OK, some people will, and we can call them transgendered. I hope they find happiness, but not at the expense of other people's will for happiness.

Look at the thread title. "Leelah Alcorn, transgender teen, committed suicide." Well, I don't know that she was transgender. I can figure out that she probably wasn't cisgender (ugly word, that, but it will have to do). But still, I don't know. I won't get a chance to meet her or see what she's like at 30, or whether she wants to be called "he" or "she." Not that I'd care very much, which is kind of the point.

Without going too far into the definition of "gender" (or needing to), I can say that there are an awful lot of people who aren't really happy either with being male or "masculine" or being female or "feminine." Such people are getting tossed under the bus by the very context of the discussion.

The thing is that there used to be at least a little cultural leeway, from Jung's idea of the anima inside every man and the animus inside every woman, through the Kinseys, through concepts like "tomboy," through the androgyny of the 1970s and 1980s. Patti Smith said something that sticks with me, "Being any gender at all is a total drag." OK, so not everybody is going to be David Bowie, but still, there was some cultural lassitude for a lot of people.

It seems pretty much gone in this gender essential, pick-a-side, brave new world. Of course, a pure cisgender world would also suck, but that doesn't mean the the one alternative that seems to be in vogue doesn't also suck.

I don't know if gender dysphoria is genetic. I am strongly convinced that differential treatment of boys and girls starts at the birth of the targeted, and that it is remarkably universal and independent of stated attitudes, as the old Conyers and Conyers study showed pretty clearly. So maybe that's genetic.

But surely gender dysphoria starts pretty early. (Hell, even the term "gender dysphoria" is just assumed to be "cisgender dysphoria," when if it were taken seriously it might be better.) It's also pretty bad.

I'd really like to have continued the changes in culture to cut people some more slack, to let them experiment with things such as might be called "gender." And if they find out, after some experimentation, that they'd be happier as the non-birth gender, then go ahead.

But that's the enemy, isn't it? That's just horrible. We can't have that!

We absolutely have to inject them with puberty-delaying hormones, because puberty would hurt. Of course, we can't try to make puberty easier, as that would be bad. Or, we have to start them transitioning before puberty because it works better. And, of course, what we mean by "works better" amounts mostly to "makes them look more like our One True Ideal™ of what Barbie or Ken looks like. Which is really important because, well, I am not quite sure, but it always seems to be there under the surface of all this discourse.

I mean, we say that such matters should be flexible, and so a man who doesn't want to have a mate who was born a man should be hammered with social pressure, For Great Justice™. But it would be bad to wonder if those self-same gender expectations that we are spending so much time shouting down to advertise our goodness might be doing a little bit of dirty work inside our brains that affects our thoughts. So we have to get rid of most of the basic findings of psychology, don't we?

Definitely we have to give up the idea that personality, gender identity, and even sexuality are things that develop through adolescence and are not rigidly hard-wired in during the third trimester, if not before. And the lack of any remotely objective evidence need not concern us, because we're so damned sure of everything.

Now, maybe people can come up with other reasons that aren't as obviously silly as my cartoon, but I don't trust what they say, unless there is a lot of evidence that they themselves have seriously questioned their preconceptions and how their culture may have shaped the very basis of their thought. This never seems to happen, especially amongst the people who are so insistent that they know who is a man and who is a woman and who is using the words right (them) and wrong (those bad people on the other side.

I think it's almost tautological. People who have done the serious introspection aren't the type to go around trying to nail people's heads to a coffee table for using the wrong word. They tend to be able to have serious discussions about matters with a ton that I am simply not seeing very much here. Sure, some people, such as TubbaBlubba, have made a lot of sense, but it gets drowned out.
 
Didn't see this on here, so I figured I'd bring it up.

Leelah Alcorn, a 16-yr old transgender teen, committed suicide a few days ago by stepping into traffic. She felt there was no need to continue with her life given the lack of support she received from her family who disagreed with her sexuality due to religious views. Her suicide note was posted on Tumblr, outlining the troubles she faced and the reasons why she decided to end it all.

Her parents were far from helpful, as she notes:



And from there it got worse.



I wish Leelah could have found the help and support she needed. The treatment she received at the hands of her family makes me incredibly angry and sad, and I wish all this religious ******** would just go away so we could make the world a much better place.

A sad story. "God doesn't make mistakes", indeed. If he didn't make mistakes, then why do some people feel like they're in the wrong body ? Why did he give them those feelings ?

Parents should be held liable for this sort of thing.
 
Epepke,

Interesting post :-)

Incidentally, I'd been thinking about people who have more than one sex change. I wonder if that doesn't relate to what you're talking about?
 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom