Investigation w\ subpoena power

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And I would like a reconciliation between your original claim that Paul treats "security" (which you seem to have concluded is the guilty party in some 9/11 coverup) with suspicion and your new claim merely that he isn't sycophantic toward them. Lack of deferral is not the same as calling them suspicious and corrupt. Did you soften your position because you realized your original characterization painted Paul as biased?

And yes, Paul's political reputation is to champion contrarian causes. I don't put faith in mere contrarianist politicians. In fact, don't put faith in politicians at all. You added a new requirement for your investigator -- that he be a member of Congress, i.e., a politician. I pointed out a few problems with that and in general asked you to justify that new requirement. You didn't address that, and I would like you to.

Also, any comment on the plagiarism scandals Rand Paul incurred last year? Does someone who blatantly steals from others' work and passes it off as his own strike you as someone whose honesty and integrity will cement both sides of a heated debate? Oh sure, he blamed it on his staffers and promised reform. But how much faith can you put in a man who is so careless in hiring and overseeing his staff? How would we know he wouldn't do that during this all-important investigation?

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Edited to remove reference to moderated content.


1. What I said of him does not present bias, it presents a man whom doesn't bend to the words of the security services simply because they've come from their lips, and I don't see him getting paid off or threatened to look the other way.

2. The U.S. Constitution is not contrarian, lol. I came from the assumption that if a new investigation were to come about that it would be conducted internally, so it isn't a requirement unless it is?

3. We wouldn't. I was hounded to provide a name, one which I did not want to say because I knew it would boil down to this, as anyone the establishment would even remotely entertain to run an investigation like this has a closet full of skeletons just like every ****in' body else, hence the reluctance to play this game...yet, I'm nice and will respond to you, sir.
 
Nope, in fact the story was pretty much verified and set in stone well before the government filed their reports. By the following Monday after the attacks we knew the who, what, when, where, and how of 9-11, and we already knew the why. We knew this because it all happened in NYC and D.C. in broad daylight in front of millions of people on the ground, and even more on live TV.

Over the years stuff gets declassified, but none of it has changed the story in any way.




Source?

Show me where 19 Al Qaeda hijackers flew three jets into buildings and lost the other one in PA when the passengers revolted has been revealed to be a lie.

You can't.



Everyone knew what happened at the WTC. No reason to preserve it as a crime scene. Plus, thousands of people worked to clear Ground Zero, and not one of them saw evidence of anything but a plane crash and fire.

If the past few weeks have shown anything, you don't mess with the NYPD, and 23 NYPD and 37 Port Authority cops died in the attack and collapse. The idea that the NYPD would look the other way when evidence of murder of their own is presented is worthy of ridicule - it would never happen. When a cop is murdered law enforcement comes out of the woodwork to catch the guy(s) responsible. Ex-cops offer their services. With thousands of workers at Ground Zero, someone would have seen something and talked. To date, not one of them has.

1. Two things -- 1) the same IC community that had been crippled by failures of imagination, incompetency and ignorance found a new gear somewhere and did a massive relevant sweep of the hijackers and their associates, living places and places they hung around at & 2) one of the legitimate criticisms of the 9/11 Commission (and other governmental investigations for that matter) is that they omitted a whole bunch of relevant information.

2. That's the problem though, you believe that what the 19 hijackers did is the first official narrative and that nothing predates or succeeds it, which I'm sorry to say is false. We can squabble over words, or I can get specific -- namely, things President Bush has said, the 'No one in this administration or the last ever thought of hijackers using planes as weapons'. That was pointedly proven to be false in the MSM. So many of the upper echelon figures in government at the time made similar comments that could not stand up under scrutiny. The I's are not dotted and the T's are not crossed, is what I'm saying. There are numerous loose ends, unresolved red flags.

3. It is erroneous to say that *everyone* knew what had happened. The NYTimes highlighted that fact -- that folks were calling for a more in-depth investigation because the collapses had surprised them -- http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/25/nyregion/25TOWE.html?pagewanted=all

4. Who had jurisdiction? FEMA and the F.B.I., right?
 
1. Two things -- 1) the same IC community that had been crippled by failures of imagination, incompetency and ignorance found a new gear somewhere and did a massive relevant sweep of the hijackers and their associates, living places and places they hung around at & 2) one of the legitimate criticisms of the 9/11 Commission (and other governmental investigations for that matter) is that they omitted a whole bunch of relevant information.
What exactly did they omit? A list and evidence to support your list of omission, or did you get this one from DRG.

2. That's the problem though, you believe that what the 19 hijackers did is the first official narrative and that nothing predates or succeeds it, which I'm sorry to say is false. We can squabble over words, or I can get specific -- namely, things President Bush has said, the 'No one in this administration or the last ever thought of hijackers using planes as weapons'. That was pointedly proven to be false in the MSM. So many of the upper echelon figures in government at the time made similar comments that could not stand up under scrutiny. The I's are not dotted and the T's are not crossed, is what I'm saying. There are numerous loose ends, unresolved red flags.
The 19 terrorists, the 19 murderers are the first official narrative. The rest of is BS, quotemined BS, and cherry picked stuff which comes to opinions, and you will fail to source as part of a failed narrative.

3. It is erroneous to say that *everyone* knew what had happened. The NYTimes highlighted that fact -- that folks were calling for a more in-depth investigation because the collapses had surprised them -- http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/25/nyregion/25TOWE.html?pagewanted=all
??? Do you have their book? lol, you source this to two guys who published a book as proof for "knew what happened". Again, BS which does not support your point. Surprised everyone sort of, nobody had seen what we saw on 911. It took time to check the data to see the planes were going 470 and 590 mph, things not known to the guys your sourced. The towers were designed to survive an aircraft impact at 180 mph, not the higher speeds; no one knew exact speed until they checked - you are no using normal time to figure things out to support your failed opinions.

4. Who had jurisdiction? FEMA and the F.B.I., right?
NYFD first, fire and find survivors... FBI for the crime, the NTSB to help the FBI. FEMA will do studies of the buildings in time; which they have done before; as they did for One Meridian Plaza in PA.

Where is the problem with the official narrative; 19 terrorists did 911, you can't back in BS.
19 terrorists did 911, you can't go back and make up BS. You keep failing to read the sources you present.
 
1. What I said of him does not present bias, it presents a man whom doesn't bend to the words of the security services...

I'll just let this speak for itself.

The U.S. Constitution is not contrarian, lol.

But Rand Paul is. Your answer bears no relationship to the question.

I came from the assumption that if a new investigation were to come about that it would be conducted internally, so it isn't a requirement unless it is?

The investigator being a politician was never a requirement. The requirements discussed in this thread are (1) independent, and (2) has subpoena power. Relaxing the requirement that the investigator should be a politician, would you care to revise your answer?

3. We wouldn't. I was hounded to provide a name...

The premise for the request was laid bare by more people than just me. The premise of the question is that no suitable investigator exists, therefore the request is a red herring.

...one which I did not want to say because I knew it would boil down to this...

As did we, therefore the request is a red herring.

Now that we've dispensed with the issues pertaining to the OP, which you disavow by saying you were hounded to provide a name, would you care to comment on the part of the question that does pertain to your claims? You want documents disclosed. How does that not amount to further investigation?
 
Jango...I don't believe 19 hijackers did this. I know 19 hijackers did this. At this point in time, the evidence supporting this is massive and irrefutable. Only liars (Gage & Griffin), idiots (Harrit & Chandler) and the truly insane (Wood) continue to support CD and Red Flag. Most of the real world has move on...
 
I'll just let this speak for itself.



But Rand Paul is. Your answer bears no relationship to the question.



The investigator being a politician was never a requirement. The requirements discussed in this thread are (1) independent, and (2) has subpoena power. Relaxing the requirement that the investigator should be a politician, would you care to revise your answer?



The premise for the request was laid bare by more people than just me. The premise of the question is that no suitable investigator exists, therefore the request is a red herring.



As did we, therefore the request is a red herring.

Now that we've dispensed with the issues pertaining to the OP, which you disavow by saying you were hounded to provide a name, would you care to comment on the part of the question that does pertain to your claims? You want documents disclosed. How does that not amount to further investigation?

FOI requests is different than a blue-ribbon panel.
 
Jango...I don't believe 19 hijackers did this. I know 19 hijackers did this. At this point in time, the evidence supporting this is massive and irrefutable. Only liars (Gage & Griffin), idiots (Harrit & Chandler) and the truly insane (Wood) continue to support CD and Red Flag. Most of the real world has move on...

Are you tolerant of people who haven't moved on? Is it considered bad or viewed negatively if a person hasn't moved on? When did 9/11 become okay?
 
Are you tolerant of people who haven't moved on? Is it considered bad or viewed negatively if a person hasn't moved on? When did 9/11 become okay?

I'm not going to play 20 questions, that is a Truther's game. My point...you are wasting your time. The idea that 9/11 was a inside job, and the WTC buildings were bought down by Controlled Demolition is one of the stupidest conspiracy theories in the history of mankind. There is zero evidence to support it. zero evidence...
 
That's the problem though, you believe that what the 19 hijackers did is the first official narrative and that nothing predates or succeeds it, which I'm sorry to say is false.

Nope. The airlines released the passenger lists as soon as all the relatives had been notified. Fight attendants on all of the hijacked fights made phone calls where they gave seat numbers for some of the hijackers. We learned that a few of those names had been on an FBI watch-list that first week after the attack. Not much of a cover-up.


We can squabble over words, or I can get specific -- namely, things President Bush has said, the 'No one in this administration or the last ever thought of hijackers using planes as weapons'.

You seem to equate the government with the administration, and they have little to do with each other. Yes, down at Langley the concept of large jets being used as missiles. Exactly how this might happen was not part of the picture (I think cargo jets were considered). The Bush Administration most likely never had the concept presented to them, and prior to 9-11 it would have been dismissed as unrealistic. Terrorism was a law enforcement issue before 9-11, not really a national security thing.


That was pointedly proven to be false in the MSM. So many of the upper echelon figures in government at the time made similar comments that could not stand up under scrutiny. The I's are not dotted and the T's are not crossed, is what I'm saying. There are numerous loose ends, unresolved red flags.

At the time? You mean before any investigations had been completed? What do they say now? This is a Troofer red-herring that always fails. Some guy said something based on tentative information that turned out to be incomplete or wrong, so what? Happens all the time.

3. It is erroneous to say that *everyone* knew what had happened.

No it's not. It happened on live TV. The mechanics of the event are clear. Identical towers hit by almost identical aircraft collapse in identical fashion. Tower 2 was struck lower and fell first, which tells you about the damage and the force of gravity the structure endured before it fell.

I don't pretend to understand all of the physics and engineering behind the collapse, but I know it all started with the plane crash.



The NYTimes highlighted that fact -- that folks were calling for a more in-depth investigation because the collapses had surprised them --

The Times ran a story about people who wanted an in-depth investigation, the NY Times did not call for one themselves.

By the way, as a former conspiracy loon myself, I don't understand how you cannot read the NIST report and the FEMA reports and then read between the lines. Look at all of the building codes that were changed just to get the WTC built in the first place, and then look at all of those same codes reinstated and improved upon after those 9-11 reports.

Since you probably can't figure it out, I'll fill you in: corners (might) have been cut to get the Twin Towers built. Not huge issues, but - in my personal opinion - they shaved a few things and rushed others to get those buildings up. I am not saying the buildings were not safe, they were right up until they were each struck by a passenger jet. Even then, they stood long enough to get most of the people inside to safety.

Seriously, just look at the improvements to the new WTC1, and retrofits made over the last 12 years to tall buildings across the country. What do you see? You should see that good enough is no longer good enough, and that engineers have to consider some really awful things when they design tall buildings now. Things like: what happens when fire suppression doesn't work? How much fire retardant do we need to make the structure as safe as possible?

Troofers always point out that the WTC was designed to survive a strike by a 707, but to date nobody has shown how this calculation was even made. I recognize it as a selling point and not a statement of bankable fact.

4. Who had jurisdiction? FEMA and the F.B.I., right?
and the state of New York.
 
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At the time? You mean before any investigations had been completed? What do they say now? This is a Troofer red-herring that always fails.

This is just a sort of modern-day behavior. Something terrible happens and within minutes news reporters are shoving microphones into the faces of government officials and emergency responders wanting answers. "We don't know yet," is generally not a satisfactory answer. I generally don't believe much that's said on the "day of."

However, conspiracy theories are almost universally based on outlying evidence, some of which may have been that collected (or speculated upon) early on in the event. Every happenstance event has a core of reputable, responsible evidence that is painstakingly developed after the fact. But that core is surrounded by a nimbus of frantic, usually wrong testimony. Trying to pit that outlying evidence against the well-established core is irresponsible. Yet that's what fuels conspiracy theories.

I don't pretend to understand all of the physics and engineering behind the collapse, ...

I do; it's my profession. I watched the events of 9/11 unfold in a room filled with colleague engineers. And, incidentally, we had access to satellite feeds for a time that gave us a bit more coverage than the mainstream news.

The talk in the room was along the lines of, "I hope they [the buildings] survive long enough to get everyone out." There wasn't really much discussion over whether the buildings would remain standing, but when they would collapse and how global the destruction would be. Most of us knew the Twin Towers had been constructed to a high structural efficiency and weren't expected to survive such impacts.

You should see that good enough is no longer good enough, and that engineers have to consider some really awful things when they design tall buildings now.

This occupies space not only in the nuts-and-bolts engineering literature but also in the high-level literature where things such as ethics and fiscal responsibility are discussed. Shortly after 9/11, the trades were all in a rush to provide multiple exits and heavily-protected egresses: defense in depth. Now that the economy is depressed, customers are saying, "Yeah, we really don't need the fortified stairwells -- we need to cut costs somewhere."

At any given time and place, engineers cater to the priorities of the customers. Otherwise they don't make money. Those change from time to time. When the Twin Towers were built, the priority was, "Make the tallest building(s) in the world."
 
Why do you ask either question?

Because I want to hear your answers to them. Please answer them. In addition, I'm still waiting for you to tell us why an investigator into this matter would need to be a politician.

After you've answered, and we've discussed your answers, I'll explain why I think they're relevant to this discussion. But I won't be sidetracked until then.
 
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JayUtah;10402718. I watched the events of 9/11 unfold in a room filled with colleague engineers. And said:
I hope they [the buildings] survive long enough to get everyone out." [/HILITE]There wasn't really much discussion over whether the buildings would remain standing, but when they would collapse and how global the destruction would be. Most of us knew the Twin Towers had been constructed to a high structural efficiency and weren't expected to survive such impacts.

Anyone who has read about or been involved in all things 'fire & safety' knows that everything is designed to a time period. Chimneys are designed to withstand a chimney fire up to a certain temp for an hour, usually requiring inspection afterwards, firewalls are designed for temp and time, fire insulation, same. Does no one wonder why schools and offices have fire drills? Does no one understand that its to determine if everyone can get out in x number of minutes?

Watching the towers burning I was thinking " I hope everyone got off those upper floors( the ones above the impact where fires were raging) and that complete evac was underway. I was shocked when reports came in about people phoning from those floors and people jumping. I assumed they were doomed. I did not expect fire fighters to be able to rescue them in time.

I expected at least a partial collapse but was blissfully unaware of the construction techniques, the huge open space , truss supported, office, the cantilevered belt that held the truss seats at the core end, the complete lack of vertical diagonal bracing. Had I, most people with a modicum of structures and physics sense, or any competent engineer(which I certainly am not) had time to fully examine the structure and contemplate the implications of a large area fire being accelerated into existence, over multiple vertically adjacent floors, within seconds, the conclusion would have been that they were in immediate danger of catastrophic collapse.

That's just MHO, I could, possibly, be incorrect.
 
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Anyone who has read about or been involved in all things 'fire & safety' knows that everything is designed to a time period.

And then sorta not even. Building codes require materials in certain situations that are rated according to fire endurance time, but those are times according to a standardized test profile known cryptically as ASTM E119. Basically it's a standard schedule of heat application. You apply the heat according to the test protocol and see how long the item lasts.

A "two-hour fire door" can withstand the ASTM E119 heating profile for at least two hours, but that's no guarantee for how long it can withstand and actual fire that has a different -- possibly hotter -- heating profile. There has been a moderate amount of talk since 9/11 that the E119 profile may no longer reflect actual heating scenarios in modern buildings. And it is generally acknowledge that the actual fires on 9/11 were nothing like ASTM E119.
 
For info of readers: hilite mine
ASTM E119
4.1 These test methods are intended to evaluate the duration for which the types of building elements noted in 1.1 contain a fire, retain their structural integrity, or exhibit both properties during a predetermined test exposure.


4.2 The test exposes a test specimen to a standard fire controlled to achieve specified temperatures throughout a specified time period. When required, the fire exposure is followed by the application of a specified standard fire hose stream applied in accordance with Practice E2226. The test provides a relative measure of the fire-test-response of comparable building elements under these fire exposure conditions. The exposure is not representative of all fire conditions because conditions vary with changes in the amount, nature and distribution of fire loading, ventilation, compartment size and configuration, and heat sink characteristics of the compartment. Variation from the test conditions or test specimen construction, such as size, materials, method of assembly, also affects the fire-test-response. For these reasons, evaluation of the variation is required for application to construction in the field.
 

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