Investigation w\ subpoena power

This assumes (and perhaps it is correct in the rough reality) that ultimately the government and its secret services are not subject to judicial control, i.e. not subject to the law of the land.

Well, there are such things as sovereign immunity and executive privilege. In other words, legal doctrines that protect government officials and entities from some kinds of legal actions. But you'd have to ask one of the qualified lawyers on the forum whether such a thing could apply here -- I simply don't know.

If a court of law, perhaps the supreme court, orders poenae against government representatives, would it have to seek and beg for government support to carry them out...?

A court typically calls upon an officer of the executive to carry out its orders, to which the officer is duty-bound to obey. The answer to this, and to the greater dilemma, is that there is no single monolithic The Government. Hence it doesn't seem out of the question that a court may order an officer to arrest or detain some other official of government on good cause, including sanctions for contempt of court if a subpoena is ignored.

But the question I pose here assumes the typical conspiracist model of government as a single coherent entity whose operatives would protect each other at all costs from having to undermine the collective secret purposes. If conspiracists subscribed to a more realistic form of government, there wouldn't need to be any new or special processes; the normally fractious nature of government would provide a toehold for them to cause real power to be wielded. But since their model is that government is an integrally impenetrable force that prevents them from getting access to information they claim is being held, by any means, then we have to wonder why a subpoena is suddenly the kryptonite that defeats that.
 
Thanks for the clarification, JayUtah. Yes, that jives with my view of reality vs. truthdom fiction.
 
1. No one who could escape accusations of being biased or a stooge or whatever other labels get tossed around to discredit a person's character.
So, no one?

2. The naturally incentive is to protect themselves, so that's where something like a lie detector could be introduced.
Which are widely known to be unreliable.

3. This is contextual given what could potentially be found in information currently classified or attained through interrogation.
Appeal to Ignorance. What you're describing is a fishing expedition.
 
So, no one?

Which are widely known to be unreliable.

Appeal to Ignorance. What you're describing is a fishing expedition.

1. Why does it matter who I say? If you disagree with my choice, I get to hear your opinion as to why my choice is less superior to yours? If that's yer end game, I'll skip this round of go-nowhere-dialogue if you don't mind.

2. Which I suppose is why the C.I.A., N.S.A. and F.B.I. use 'em, eh?

3. No, not really, just declassification of the cited evidence the government has used to make their case and that which can be queried from databases using the terminology found within the 9/11 Commission itself. -- At any rate, so what if it was a "fishing expedition"? Shouldn't the government be forced to the same standard as everyone else? Meaning, they say something, they show the proof and not the ******** system they got going now -- say something without backing it up while America's young and poor go off to die in some foreign land. Yay non-transparency, right?
 
Why does it matter who I say?

Because your critics suggest that there exists no person who fits the criteria of a suitably impartial investigator. They further suggest that you know this, and your inability to name a candidate substantiates that suggestion. This is important because if no such investigator exists, then the call for an investigation is simply rhetorical tap-dancing, not a legitimate call for action.

If you disagree with my choice, I get to hear your opinion as to why my choice is less superior to yours?

If you were to name a candidate, then yes, a discussion would ensue about his qualifications and his acceptability to both parties. As I mentioned before, the investigation in this case would have to be truly impartial. Otherwise it's just the Truthers offering their own biased judgment in opposition to the majority view, and that hasn't gotten anyone anywhere so far.

If that's yer end game, I'll skip this round of go-nowhere-dialogue if you don't mind.

As long as you're comfortable with your own unwillingness or inability to name a candidate that satisfies your criteria, suggesting no investigation is possible that would satisfy you.

Which I suppose is why the C.I.A., N.S.A. and F.B.I. use 'em, eh?

Nothing forbids their general use both in an out of government, including law enforcement. The question of whether the polygraph results are admissible in court is settled, however. If you invoke the judicial rules of evidence to compel disclosure by subpoena, then you have to respect the judicial rules of evidence as concerns the admissibility of the evidence. Otherwise you're just throwing out only those parts of the law that are inconvenient to your beliefs.

The reliability of the polygraph to determine willful deception is right around 60 percent, or just slightly more reliable than guessing. The role of a polygraph in an interrogation is the salient factor, and the one most applicable to the agencies you have named. It simply amplifies the intimidation, increasing the likelihood that the subject will "come clean" under the ordinary interview that precedes and follows the use of the polygraph, and thereby provide evidence that can be followed up on by more reliable means. In a sense, the polygraph is styled as the "bad cop" and the examiner is the "good cop."

Have you ever undergone a polygraph examination, Jango? Please answer yes or no.

No, not really, just declassification of the cited evidence the government has used to make their case and that which can be queried from databases using the terminology found within the 9/11 Commission itself.

Documentary facts of that nature (e.g., internal communications of the intelligence community) require knowledgeable interpretation in order to be considered as evidence, often by their authors if known, in order to ascertain what the documents mean and how they were used or received. Who, in your investigation, gets to interpret that evidence for everyone for all time?

At any rate, so what if it was a "fishing expedition"? Shouldn't the government be forced to the same standard as everyone else?

The standard is that "fishing expeditions" are not allowed because the courts consider them an unreasonable search. For this reason subpoenas issued by investigators and prosecutors have to be vetted by a judge to ensure they are sufficiently narrow in scope and that the rights of the accused are adequately protected and that the legitimate privacy of witnesses is respected. Compelling a witness to give broad public testimony about previously private affairs, on the unknown off-chance that some as-yet uncharacterized good may come of it, is expressly forbidden.

So then your question is really whether the government operatives involved here should be afforded the same constitutional protection as everyone else? Or in your mad rush to "justice" are you just going to throw out the Constitution as well?

Yay non-transparency, right?

...says the guy who refuses to name an investigator for fear the discussion of it will go badly for him. It seems you're the one with the agenda, and it involves unknown parties using only the powers of government without its attendant protections, and refusing to discuss how you will proceed and by whose actions. Please don't preach "transparency" as a virtue without being willing to exhibit it yourself.
 
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Because your critics suggest that there exists no person who fits the criteria of a suitably impartial investigator. They further suggest that you know this, and your inability to name a candidate substantiates that suggestion. This is important because if no such investigator exists, then the call for an investigation is simply rhetorical tap-dancing, not a legitimate call for action.



If you were to name a candidate, then yes, a discussion would ensue about his qualifications and his acceptability to both parties. As I mentioned before, the investigation in this case would have to be truly impartial. Otherwise it's just the Truthers offering their own biased judgment in opposition to the majority view, and that hasn't gotten anyone anywhere so far.



As long as you're comfortable with your own unwillingness or inability to name a candidate that satisfies your criteria, suggesting no investigation is possible that would satisfy you.



Nothing forbids their general use both in an out of government, including law enforcement. The question of whether the polygraph results are admissible in court is settled, however. If you invoke the judicial rules of evidence to compel disclosure by subpoena, then you have to respect the judicial rules of evidence as concerns the admissibility of the evidence. Otherwise you're just throwing out only those parts of the law that are inconvenient to your beliefs.

The reliability of the polygraph to determine willful deception is right around 60 percent, or just slightly more reliable than guessing. The role of a polygraph in an interrogation is the salient factor, and the one most applicable to the agencies you have named. It simply amplifies the intimidation, increasing the likelihood that the subject will "come clean" under the ordinary interview that precedes and follows the use of the polygraph, and thereby provide evidence that can be followed up on by more reliable means. In a sense, the polygraph is styled as the "bad cop" and the examiner is the "good cop."

Have you ever undergone a polygraph examination, Jango? Please answer yes or no.



Documentary facts of that nature (e.g., internal communications of the intelligence community) require knowledgeable interpretation in order to be considered as evidence, often by their authors if known, in order to ascertain what the documents mean and how they were used or received. Who, in your investigation, gets to interpret that evidence for everyone for all time?



The standard is that "fishing expeditions" are not allowed because the courts consider them an unreasonable search. For this reason subpoenas issued by investigators and prosecutors have to be vetted by a judge to ensure they are sufficiently narrow in scope and that the rights of the accused are adequately protected and that the legitimate privacy of witnesses is respected. Compelling a witness to give broad public testimony about previously private affairs, on the unknown off-chance that some as-yet uncharacterized good may come of it, is expressly forbidden.

So then your question is really whether the government operatives involved here should be afforded the same constitutional protection as everyone else? Or in your mad rush to "justice" are you just going to throw out the Constitution as well?



...says the guy who refuses to name an investigator for fear the discussion of it will go badly for him. It seems you're the one with the agenda, and it involves unknown parties using only the powers of government without its attendant protections, and refusing to discuss how you will proceed and by whose actions. Please don't preach "transparency" as a virtue without being willing to exhibit it yourself.

Okay, I see the disconnect here -- I'm not calling for a new investigation. I'll admit that at one time I did, but that does not matter now. To name a person I'd be comfortable with leading an investigation if there were to be one would be Rand Paul.
 
Okay, I see the disconnect here -- I'm not calling for a new investigation. I'll admit that at one time I did, but that does not matter now. To name a person I'd be comfortable with leading an investigation if there were to be one would be Rand Paul.

What was your "new investigation" into? What did you drop, and why.

How can it not matter... now.
 
What was your "new investigation" into? What did you drop, and why.

How can it not matter... now.

I see the red flags as they are and that they've been left officially unaddressed and my natural curiosity compels me to search for answers but I have ran into the same immovable object so many others have before me -- the wall that separates open-source and classified information. An investigation could circumvent that wall, but then current day realities show themselves to be that any investigation into 9/11 will be as flawed as the many that have come before because any official investigation is inevitably going to be tainted by political influences, among others. So on to apathy it is.
 
I see the red flags as they are and that they've been left officially unaddressed and my natural curiosity compels me to search for answers but I have ran into the same immovable object so many others have before me -- the wall that separates open-source and classified information. An investigation could circumvent that wall, but then current day realities show themselves to be that any investigation into 9/11 will be as flawed as the many that have come before because any official investigation is inevitably going to be tainted by political influences, among others. So on to apathy it is.

What was flawed in the investigation? Specific claims, specific sources. Source it.

NIST?
FBI?
19 terrorists?
Using a fake hijacking as a scam? Flawed? Gee, it is the only thing UBL and his idiot failed murderers got right, as car accidents are the real terrorists in the USA...

What was tainted? Specific claims, and source please. This is interesting./

Apathy is 911 truth, unable to earn their Pulitzer after 13 years of BS and claims of flawed BS.
 
Aren't we lucky that there is someone on this planet who is going to save us ?
 
Okay, I see the disconnect here -- I'm not calling for a new investigation. I'll admit that at one time I did, but that does not matter now. To name a person I'd be comfortable with leading an investigation if there were to be one would be Rand Paul.

What are Senator Paul's positions on 9/11, Saudi Arabia and related fields?
He is up for re-election next year, but apparently considers running for POTUS.
He is a Tea-Party Republican.

You don't seriously propose that Rand Paul is an acceptable or even good choice to lead an independent investigation? You surely understand that he would merely be a good choice for an investigation that goes as YOU wish it to go, right?
 
What are Senator Paul's positions on 9/11, Saudi Arabia and related fields?
He is up for re-election next year, but apparently considers running for POTUS.
He is a Tea-Party Republican.

You don't seriously propose that Rand Paul is an acceptable or even good choice to lead an independent investigation? You surely understand that he would merely be a good choice for an investigation that goes as YOU wish it to go, right?

His religiosity is concerning, but he views (at least publicly) the security services as being corrupt and suspicious. My assumption is that he'd grill the security services like Frank Church did. FYI -- he was the only one I could think of that makes up the current Senate or House of Representatives.
 
...he views (at least publicly) the security services as being corrupt and suspicious...

So he already considers the suspects guilty? The man is clearly biased and not independent - recused.
 
Okay, I see the disconnect here -- I'm not calling for a new investigation.

Have you recanted your desire to have released the documents you say are classified and which pertain to 9/11? Since you continue to speak out against people who oppose the kind of investigation the conspiracy theorists are talking about, perhaps it would be wise for you state what, if anything, you do call for on this matter.

I'll admit that at one time I did, but that does not matter now.

It does in the sense that the topic of this thread is why others (if not you) want a specific kind of investigation. To stay on topic you're not required to advocate a new investigation, but you need to tie your remarks toward the discussion of those who do: specifically that a new investigation be independent and that it have subpoena power.

To name a person I'd be comfortable with leading an investigation if there were to be one would be Rand Paul.

Tell us why he would be especially qualified. Keep in mind the goal is that the investigator be acceptable to all parties to the 9/11 controversy. I would add that he should be reasonably trustworthy in general.

FYI -- he was the only one I could think of that makes up the current Senate or House of Representatives.

That the investigator be a member of Congress is a new requirement you hadn't previously listed. Why that requirement, especially? The previous 9/11 commission was created by Congress and you dispute its methods and conclusions. Why would a new Congressional investigation be any more trustworthy to the conspiracy theorists calling for an independent investigation?

The notion that the best investigator would currently hold a government office presents a new host of problems. Would Paul's power as an investigator be tied to his office in Congress? If so, then what constitutional mandate applies to a single senator in such a role? If he is to be considered wholly independent, would that create a conflict of interest were he required to delve into secrets held, say, by Congress?
 
1. Why does it matter who I say? If you disagree with my choice, I get to hear your opinion as to why my choice is less superior to yours? If that's yer end game, I'll skip this round of go-nowhere-dialogue if you don't mind.
Let's see; putting words in my mouth, more evasion.

2. Which I suppose is why the C.I.A., N.S.A. and F.B.I. use 'em, eh?
Leaving aside the lack of citation; do they use them alone, or in conjunction with other evidence? Are they used when interrogating external suspects, or solely within internal investigations? Are they actually used as evidence themselves, or to point investigators in the right direction?

3. No, not really, just declassification of the cited evidence the government has used to make their case and that which can be queried from databases using the terminology found within the 9/11 Commission itself. -- At any rate, so what if it was a "fishing expedition"? Shouldn't the government be forced to the same standard as everyone else?
You do realize that fishing expeditions are frowned upon by judges, right? "I don't know what evidence I need, but I'll know it when I see it."

Meaning, they say something, they show the proof and not the ******** system they got going now -- say something without backing it up while America's young and poor go off to die in some foreign land. Yay non-transparency, right?
I'd ask what you're even talking about, but I'm not sure the answer would actually illuminate anything.
 
<snip>

And I would like a reconciliation between your original claim that Paul treats "security" (which you seem to have concluded is the guilty party in some 9/11 coverup) with suspicion and your new claim merely that he isn't sycophantic toward them. Lack of deferral is not the same as calling them suspicious and corrupt. Did you soften your position because you realized your original characterization painted Paul as biased?

And yes, Paul's political reputation is to champion contrarian causes. I don't put faith in mere contrarianist politicians. In fact, don't put faith in politicians at all. You added a new requirement for your investigator -- that he be a member of Congress, i.e., a politician. I pointed out a few problems with that and in general asked you to justify that new requirement. You didn't address that, and I would like you to.

Also, any comment on the plagiarism scandals Rand Paul incurred last year? Does someone who blatantly steals from others' work and passes it off as his own strike you as someone whose honesty and integrity will cement both sides of a heated debate? Oh sure, he blamed it on his staffers and promised reform. But how much faith can you put in a man who is so careless in hiring and overseeing his staff? How would we know he wouldn't do that during this all-important investigation?

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2. The naturally incentive is to protect themselves, so that's where something like a lie detector could be introduced.

It is against the law to force someone to take a Polygraph, better known at the 5th Amendment. Polygraph results are inadmissible in a court of law because, as has already been pointed out, there are unreliable. (All they prove is that the person believes they are telling the truth, not that they are telling the truth).

This isn't even obscure legal thinking, you see it mentioned all the time.


As to the original post question:

You would need a independent prosecutor. I would bet if they were ever stupid enough to do this it would look like what Ken Star did in the 1990s (Google that if you're too young to know).

So it's a dumb idea.
 
9/11 is just one of those rare conspiracies that has a voluminous assortment of official and credible information that runs directly counter to what has been said by people in key leadership positions in the government post-9/11.

Nope, in fact the story was pretty much verified and set in stone well before the government filed their reports. By the following Monday after the attacks we knew the who, what, when, where, and how of 9-11, and we already knew the why. We knew this because it all happened in NYC and D.C. in broad daylight in front of millions of people on the ground, and even more on live TV.

Over the years stuff gets declassified, but none of it has changed the story in any way.


The first official narrative, in so many regards, was torn to shreds by later revelations.

Source?

Show me where 19 Al Qaeda hijackers flew three jets into buildings and lost the other one in PA when the passengers revolted has been revealed to be a lie.

You can't.

NIST tells us the Answer For X Is Three but won't show us their math, and the investigation of the buildings' collapse was compromised firstly by the necessary searches for life but then the investigation was rendered untenable by the clean-up crews working urgently to get the debris shipped outta dodge.

Everyone knew what happened at the WTC. No reason to preserve it as a crime scene. Plus, thousands of people worked to clear Ground Zero, and not one of them saw evidence of anything but a plane crash and fire.

If the past few weeks have shown anything, you don't mess with the NYPD, and 23 NYPD and 37 Port Authority cops died in the attack and collapse. The idea that the NYPD would look the other way when evidence of murder of their own is presented is worthy of ridicule - it would never happen. When a cop is murdered law enforcement comes out of the woodwork to catch the guy(s) responsible. Ex-cops offer their services. With thousands of workers at Ground Zero, someone would have seen something and talked. To date, not one of them has.
 

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