Leelah Alcorn, transgender teen, commited suicide

[Slowvehicle]

Of course there is. The transgender agenda is to be accepted and treated like everyone else.

Those unfeeling, inhuman monsters!

 

[Cl1mh4224rd]

There are some surprisingly terrible human beings posting in this thread...

 

[Lithrael]

I'm guessing a lot of lesbians would probably be pretty upset if a male used deception to sleep with them under the pretense that they were female. Would you be more inclined to respect their feelings since they're part of the LGBTQ world?

Questions like this come across as extremely disingenuous. You sound like you're describing a regular guy trying to pass as female just to get in some woman's pants. Yes that would be offensive. But if you are attempting to describe a transgender woman getting in some woman's pants, that sounds a lot less offensive and potentially not offensive at all. Maybe it looks the same to you but it is not the same.

For the record I used to have a lot of these same misgivings but then a friend of mine came out and transitioned and I had a lot fewer (but still some) misgivings, and then I found out another friend was transitioning (and I was indeed initially a little upset that they 'misrepresented' themselves to me) and got over a whole 'nother set of misgivings. And now I feel such misgivings, while understandable, are also ridiculous.

 

[Porpoise of Life]

Do you actually believe that there is a "transgender agenda"? What support do you offer?

Also, can we call it the transgenda?

 

[ThunderChunky]

...right. If only I had said that the approach might have to be different,case-by-case.

OTH, the majority appears to be heteronormative--does that justify treating homosexuality as an abhorrent aberration to be cured?

People don't grow out of homosexuality so your comparison is invalid.

 

[petrov2500]

Do you actually believe that there is a "transgender agenda"? What support do you offer?

Absolutely. There is a push to allow men who feel they are women to enter women's bathrooms.

 

[petrov2500]

Might I submit that your "consideration" might, in fact, be the least of her worries?

How, in your opinion,would physical surgery make things "murkier"?

Because this person would have male genes but a somewhat female appearance.

 

[Slowvehicle]

Absolutely. There is a push to allow men who feel they are women to enter women's bathrooms.

Forgive me for having to ask, but are you serious? Is this some sort of attempt at hipster irony?

 

[ThunderChunky]

I wouldn't treat that desire as trivial given the number of men who can and have murdered their partners after learning they were trans. But I think that's driven more by anti-gay/anti-trans prejudice, not so much grounded in a preference for child-bearing partners.

I'm guessing that many more men just dump their parters upon learning this knowledge instead of murdering them. I'm sure a lot of those men get hurt and upset about it and wish they had known before the relationship started. I would agree that a lot of that probably has to do with transphobia, but it doesn't change the hurt feelings that have been caused.

If some woman were desirable as a romantic or sexual partner, why would learning that she is trans make her less desirable?

Attraction is highly psychological. I'd wager that if you found out someone was a secret transhater you would immediately be less attracted to them even if they didn't change the way they acted at all. Likewise a lot of men will become less attracted to a women on just the knowledge that they are trans.

Sure, why not. But some people's preferences are quite petty and unimportant. I personally prefer women long hair to short hair, but I doubt I would accuse a woman who piqued my interest of "screwing around with my life choices and sexual existence" because she didn't tell me up-front that she wears a wig to cover her alopecia.

Imagine someone committed rape, murder, and cannibalism and then avoided jail on a loophole. Do you think this person has a moral obligation to disclose the information to future partners? If you know something would be important to the person on the other side, it's probably the moral choice to disclose it (at least in a typical relationship).

 

[Skeptic Tank]

At what point is a person required to figure out what you will find abhorrent, or disgusting, or what will make one ineligible to be another's mate?

If one has such standards, is it not, in fact, incumbent upon them to find out if another falls short of those standards, before one engages in intimacy, rather than hope the other will know what to disclose?

Even in something so simple as an STD, is one justified in expecting universal voluntary disclosure?

Hold on, hold on...

You seem to be acting like it is some weird, fringe, idiosyncratic, hateful prejudice for someone to expect that when they get into a sexual relationship with someone who appears to be of a particular sex, that that person is in fact of that sex, was born of that sex, and is fully biologically that sex complete with the corresponding chromosomes and that one can reasonably assume that reproduction with that person is possible.

I'm sorry, but that is a bedrock part of the normal human experience that cannot just be brushed off as "oh why should I be looking out for someone's weird hang ups?"

Do you actually believe that there is a "transgender agenda"? What support do you offer?

Of course there is. The transgender agenda is to be accepted and treated like everyone else.

You guys are being tongue in cheek but there's some truth to this. Yes, the "agenda" if we want to call it that, is to get to the point where society acts like someone being born with a penis, later having it surgically removed/converted into an approximation of a vagina, and then going around society representing themselves as female is utterly insignificant, a completely mundane, yawn inducing moment.

So, the agenda is to normalize it. To get to the point where people who would want to be informed before becoming intimately involved with such a person can be dismissed as intolerant, irrational, hateful throwbacks whose feelings on these matters can be blithely dismissed with no moral qualms whatsoever.

We can see that some in this thread are already at that point, and busily encouraging the rest of us to "catch up."

But I contend that it is incredibly immoral to become sexually intimate with someone, or even just romantic (going out on dates, holding hands, talking for hours on the phone) without informing them of this highly unusual, and very likely inflammatory revelation about yourself VERY early on in that process.

It has already been acknowledged in this thread that not doing so puts the transgender person in well known and very real danger of physical violence being done to them when the information does come out at a time the other person perceives to be later than it should have been disclosed. Earlier we discussed a murder case where a guy was serving life for killing a transgender person he had married under the impression she was a born female, back in the 70's.

Are there people in this thread who are going to say, with a straight face, that they think it would be okay to get married to someone without informing them you were born a man, when you know they believe you were born a woman, and when you have every reason to suspect their reaction to that information would be very negative?

The problem with this fervent progressivism is that you guys are driven to such ideological extremes that you turn back and can no longer see normality on the horizon. You become completely detached from the experience of the vast bulk of humanity throughout history and to this day. Regular people become the strange ones, to you.

For most people, this revelation would be a huge deal. And again, as I said earlier, plenty of people don't discuss the issue of having children until very far down the road in a relationship. Plenty of people talk a big game about never wanting kids early on, but they change their tune later into the relationship. How can the policy of "I don't have to tell people about how I was born because they're just ignorant if they care" be reconciled with this reality?

Progressives start from the point of "it would be unfair if there are any differences between people" and they let that ideological "true north" dictate everything they say, think, and believe after that. It would be unfair for there to be differences between races/sexes/individuals/transgenders vs. cisgenders, THEREFORE there are not!

But sometimes an ambassador from reality has to remind you warmhearted, caring people that life is very much unfair and things are very much different from other things. I'm sorry that it's so, but it is so.

There are differences between people and these differences are important.

 

[Slowvehicle]

People don't grow out of homosexuality so your comparison is invalid.

Astonishing.

Are you actually claiming that sexuality is a dichotomy? A boolean on/off switch set to "homosexual"/"heterosexual"?

Are you actually claiming that no-one experiments with homosexual behaviour, then decides it is not for them?

Are you aware that human sexuality is a matrix, encompassing the range from aggressively sexual to a-sexual on one set of axes, and "homosexual" to "heterosexual" on another set of axes? A bisexual individual is not a "failed" heterosexual, or an "indecisive" homosexual.

 

[petrov2500]

Of course there is. The transgender agenda is to be accepted and treated like everyone else.

This is a bit misleading. The transgender agenda is to get people to accept that they are the gender they claim to be. It is not simply about equality: I believe they should be treated as equals but I do not accept a man claiming to be a woman is actually a woman and I would not engage in a romantic relationship with such a person.

Transgenderism (along with other delusions of people thinking they are aliens or whatever) is a mental disorder, it does not reflect reality (note that this is not to say that these people should be viewed or treated negatively).

 

[Slowvehicle]

Because this person would have male genes but a somewhat female appearance.

My suggestion to you would be for you, personally, to get better at detecting that of which you disapprove.

If you feel she is "murky", perhaps you ought to investigate a different plaything for your evening's pleasure.

 

[Beanbag]

There are some surprisingly terrible human beings posting in this thread...

You find them everywhere.

Beanbag

 

[Pup]

I, for one, wish the issue was not, "Hmmm...I don't like it because I don't want to boink it," but focused instead on a person's humanity, regardless of sex, gender, gender rôle, or boinking orientation.

Well, yes, but the question came up specifically about sexual intercourse, so that's what I was replying to.

Again, I am not sure the issue is, or should be, encouraging heterosexual men to take homosexual mates. I would rather the issue be more properly framed in terms of not letting heterosexual men enforce their own sexual orientation on others (not letting, in fact, anyone enforce "sex-normativity" upon anyone else).

You didn't think I was seriously suggesting that hetero men take homosexual mates, did you? I introduced that for the silliness of it--of course it's not a solution. The solution is, as you noted, not to let others force their "sex-normativity" on others. Ideally, transexuals would be considered just as much "real" men or women, of their target genders, as gay men and women are considered to have a "real" love for their mates and not just a mental disease. We've just about made it with gay men and women, barring a few hold-out bigots, but from this thread at least, it looks like acceptance of transexuals is far behind.

OTH, why not, "...tell a squeamish person to get over themselves and accept a person as a person regardless of opinions about sex, gender, or gender rôle... "?

That would be the ideal, but they're going to argue they have a right to their feelings just as much as any non-normative person. So what's the come-back for that?

Actually, I think this divides up into two issues: what an individual wants for their own mate, which is their business, and what an individual thinks society should be like, as far as people choosing mates. It's one thing to say "I'd be horribly disgusted at becoming romantically involved with a transexual" (which might be their personal taste) and another thing to say, "It's normal and expected for people to be horribly disgusted at becoming romantically involved with a transexual." As we all know, we just came through a time when people claimed it was normal to be disgusted by interracial and gay relationships, even if they weren't involved in them themselves. I'd rather not see that same thing for transexual people.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Questions like this come across as extremely disingenuous. You sound like you're describing a regular guy trying to pass as female just to get in some woman's pants. Yes that would be offensive. But if you are attempting to describe a transgender woman getting in some woman's pants, that sounds a lot less offensive and potentially not offensive at all. Maybe it looks the same to you but it is not the same.

For the record I used to have a lot of these same misgivings but then a friend of mine came out and transitioned and I had a lot fewer (but still some) misgivings, and then I found out another friend was transitioning (and I was indeed initially a little upset that they 'misrepresented' themselves to me) and got over a whole 'nother set of misgivings. And now I feel such misgivings, while understandable, are also ridiculous.

From the perspective of most heterosexual males, a transgender entering into a sexual relationship with them would qualify as an instance of a man pretending to be a woman in order to get into their pants.

You might vehemently disagree with their perception of it, and you could probably make some very good arguments until you turned blue in the face about why they were wrong in viewing it that way, but it is how they would view it and it is their body and their life and their choice to make.

Listen and believe, honor their lived experience, and their truth.

And also for the record, I used to be much more "open minded" on this and other similar issues than I am now. We don't all evolve in the same direction ideologically. I used to think progressivism was the "end game" for any thinking person, I am convinced now that it is not. I would no longer call what I was "open minded" as I thought of it then. I'd be more inclined now to think of my former mindset as silly, naive and insufficiently reflective of harsh, unpleasant realities which an adult must face and account for.

 

[Slowvehicle]

Hold on, hold on...

You seem to be acting like it is some weird, fringe, idiosyncratic, hateful prejudice for someone to expect that when they get into a sexual relationship with someone who appears to be of a particular sex, that that person is in fact of that sex, was born of that sex, and is fully biologically that sex complete with the corresponding chromosomes and that one can reasonably assume that reproduction with that person is possible.

I'm sorry, but that is a bedrock part of the normal human experience that cannot just be brushed off as "oh why should I be looking out for someone's weird hang ups?"

<respectful snip for focus>

The highlighted represent your personal contributions, and are not my words. Your "seem-dar" has failed you.

What I actually said was that if you, personally, have a list of things you, personally, would find disgusting and abhorrent, it is, in fact, up to you, personally, to make such clear to a potential sex-partner before engaging in intimacy.

If there are things that you, personally, would find, in retrospect, to be off-putting, it is up to you, personally, to investigate those possibilities before engaging in intimacy.

BTW, are you, personally, qualified to take and read a karotype, to determine whether the "genes match the form-al wear", as it were?

As far as a "bedrock" of the "normal human experience", what about those of us whose experiences differ? Even when I was actively struggling to "pass", to adopt heternormativity and "fit in", I was much more attracted to the person than the shell.

The bottom line: if you would be disgusted to find out that a potential sex partner had had reassignment surgery, or reconstructive surgery, or was not a virgin, or supported the designated hitter rule; it is up to you to discover such before engaging in intimacy than to expect that others will "know" your standards.

 

[Arcade22]

From the perspective of most heterosexual males, a transgender entering into a sexual relationship with them would qualify as an instance of a man pretending to be a woman in order to get into their pants.

Then lets see the facts that led you come to this conclusion, or am i going to assume you are just making stuff up as you go?

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Then lets see the facts that led you come to this conclusion, or am i going to assume you are just making stuff up as you go?

I freely admit to appealing to common understanding of how human beings are there.

I would love to hear what you believe the percentage of heterosexual, cisgender males who would feel that way is. I'm giving you full green light to conjecture.

Just use your experience of human beings and society as it exists today, and tell me (as vaguely or specifically as you like) how common you think the view I described is among that group?

 

[ThunderChunky]

Astonishing.

Are you actually claiming that sexuality is a dichotomy? A boolean on/off switch set to "homosexual"/"heterosexual"?

Are you actually claiming that no-one experiments with homosexual behaviour, then decides it is not for them?

Are you aware that human sexuality is a matrix, encompassing the range from aggressively sexual to a-sexual on one set of axes, and "homosexual" to "heterosexual" on another set of axes? A bisexual individual is not a "failed" heterosexual, or an "indecisive" homosexual.

People don't grow out of bisexuality either. You brought up homosexuality, so that's what I discussed.