Michael Brown Shooting

[LTC8K6]

OK - Let's try it this way.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=853&pictureid=9029[/qimg]

Follow the red arrows. They mark the cordon. We can see from our perspective outside the cordon Brown's hat and two policeman watching the area. The thing being protected is inside the cordon and on the other side of the SUV+hat.

Also notice the edge of a cone by the right-most SUV. That marks the second burst.

If your posit is correct, the body is some distance behind the photographer in this image and Wilson shot him from ~ 200' away.

The cordon was not complete. You can see in the screen shot of the passenger side, that the crime scene tape goes beyond the SUV.

The crime scene van isn't even there yet in that photo.

Here you can see the cordon going further back, to include the hat. Note that the tape goes behind the officers who are standing well behind the hat.

It has been tied all the way back to that light pole, and it goes all the way across the street.

http://localtvkplr.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/promo232064756.jpg?w=640

http://i0.wp.com/plutis.com/wp-cont...2d56-11e4-b800-35e28f61745c_shootingscene.jpg

There you can see a crime scene van is there, and the tape is even behind it.

 

[LTC8K6]

Care to elaborate?

Not really.

It's too much trouble to go through the pictures and vids and try to explain what I see.

I predict that we will learn that Brown ran much farther away than most people think, and that he was shot much farther away from the SUV than most people think.

 

[Cylinder]

OK - now we're both wrong. The SUV in my post earlier isn't Wilson's...nor is the one you asserted from the video that's down the road.

The two marked with arrows are the same vehicle with the bottom photo being taken much earlier in time and from some elevation.

Brown's body is between Wilson's SUV in the top photo and the one marked with the arrow.

ETA: It is interesting to know that Brown's hat came off on the driver-side and his body ended up on the passenger. I'm glad you brought this up.

 

[LTC8K6]

I'm confident that I have correctly identified Wilson's SUV, and that it's very far away from Brown's body. Much farther than 35 feet.

Red arrow is Wilson's SUV, blue is Brown's body between the two far SUVs.

Note that the cordon apparently goes from the light pole on the right, all the way to the light pole down the road on the left.

 

[acementhead]

To my knowledge, Wilson hasn't released a statement of any kind, so even if the recording is actually real, it doesn't vary with Wilson's story. He has no story, at least none that has been made public.

No GWCarver you must be wrong because one of your team, Plague311, said that the robbery "had been called in and Wilson was aware that it took place." The only way in which that could possibly be true is if Wilson had made a statement

plague311
Graduate Poster

That being said, yes, the robbery had been called in and Wilson was aware that it took place.

 

[GWCarver]

Not really.

It's too much trouble to go through the pictures and vids and try to explain what I see.

I predict that we will learn that Brown ran much farther away than most people think, and that he was shot much farther away from the SUV than most people think.

OK, but I'm really not sure what that means since we don't have a statement from Wilson saying how far he chased him, or even if he chased him. We have some hearsay that says Wilson's first protocol in that situation was pursuit, so that is what he did. I've never had any idea how far away from the car Brown's body was until today, but I really had no expectations. (I don't really care how this turns out, I just want to be on the right side of it.) If Michael bull-rushed Officer Wilson, it doesn't really matter how far down the road it was, at least to me.

 

[GWCarver]

No GWCarver you must be wrong because one of your team, Plague311, said that the robbery "had been called in and Wilson was aware that it took place." The only way in which that could possibly be true is if Wilson had made a statement

Yeah, someone did say that, but it wasn't Wilson. Cases like this make it hard to keep track of what you know and what you really know, so I think we need to cut each other a little slack and offer corrections or request sources.

 

[LTC8K6]

Crime scene tape all the way down at the far light pole. Brown's body is close to the far light pole on the left.

 

[pakeha]

Does this mean my gunshot analysis on YouTube is not going viral?

P.S.
Not really an analysis, just a waveform depiction..

Never mind, Skeptical Greg. It was appreciated here all the same.

Others here will argue that it was only a few cigars, hardly grand larceny. If you turn that point around, however, it inspires the question; If Mr. Brown chose to use that level of violence to get a few cheap cigars, how violent might he become over something much, much more serious, like getting arrested and going to prison?

A very uncomfortable question that is.

We only have a few known witnesses at this time. The first, Dorion Johnson, claims that Wilson tried to pull Brown through his car window, and Brown tried to pull away. The second, Tiffany Mitchell, corroborates his claim, as does the third, Piaget Crenshaw. The fourth, Michael Brady, claims to see "tussling" through the window. The fifth, Emanual Freeman didn't see the start of what happened, apparently, so he's got nothing on this. The sixth is a guy who had spoken with Brown before he left for the store, and he also did not see the start of the altercation. There are other people at the scene discussing the shooting, but they are unknown, so we don't actually know if they witnessed anything at all, purple monkey dishwasher. Wilson's has wisely not stated anything to the public, and his incident report to the FPD contains no details - probably because the FPD is not investigating the incident.

I can understand your caution in accepting those eye witness accounts.
Yet you then post a bit later:

[ . . . ]I'm going to veer off a bit here - *if* what all of the known witnesses say is true, then it's a good example of escalating force that is way over the top - -and also fairly ridiculous, given that Wilson couldn't possibly think it a good idea to pull a large person through a car window to be unrestrained and on top of him. Would he be instead trying to bang the kid's head into the side of the car?

From inside the car?
Trying to grab a 6'4'' man weighing in at 290 lb. from a seated position behind a steering wheel and bang his head against the car?

I wonder how the scuffling at the car started.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

I am now convinced that the shooting was a crime, based on the great distance between the body and Wilson's SUV.

I believe Officer Wilson had a legal right to fire on Brown until he was out of commission based on the felony assault Brown had committed against Wilson.

If Brown was not complying fully and rapidly with Wilson's directives, and was showing any sort of indications that he intended to keep fighting or fleeing, I think it would've been negligent for Wilson to risk this criminal escaping or overpowering him.

If Wilson merely killed Brown as retribution for the assault and his attempt to take Wilson's firearm, I don't care and I hope they can never prove it, and that he walks.

ETA: because I think assaulting a police officer and going for his gun earns a person death because I feel confident if Brown got that gun, Wilson would be dead.

 

[lionking]

I believe Officer Wilson had a legal right to fire on Brown until he was out of commission based on the felony assault Brown had committed against Wilson.

If Brown was not complying fully and rapidly with Wilson's directives, and was showing any sort of indications that he intended to keep fighting or fleeing, I think it would've been negligent for Wilson to risk this criminal escaping or overpowering him.

If Wilson merely killed Brown as retribution for the assault and his attempt to take Wilson's firearm, I don't care and I hope they can never prove it, and that he walks.

ETA: because I think assaulting a police officer and going for his gun earns a person death because I feel confident if Brown got that gun, Wilson would be dead.

So you would condone shooting someone fleeing who is not an obvious threat to you or others (not carrying a gun etc)?

Is this a certified skeptical position? I'm a little unsure of your status as a paragon of skepticism right at the moment.

I'm glad I don't live somewhere where your rules are in place.

 

[lionking]

If Wilson merely killed Brown as retribution for the assault and his attempt to take Wilson's firearm, I don't care and I hope they can never prove it, and that he walks.

Oh I simply have to comment on this. You don't care if Wilson gets away with murder. Got it. A fine skeptical position.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Oh I simply have to comment on this. You don't care if Wilson gets away with murder. Got it. A fine skeptical position.

If the circumstances are that he attacked a police officer who was clearly identified as such, after merely being questioned and/or confronted by said officer, and if that attack involved hitting the officer in the face and attempting to gain control of his firearm...

Then I don't even consider "murder" to be a possibility under that set of facts when we're talking about a window of time from start of encounter to Brown shot dead which is a matter of just a couple of minutes, tops.

Something pretty outlandish would need to have happened for me to think "okay now THAT is murder" like Brown on his knees, hands clasped, begging for his life and clearly not a threat... and Wilson clearly seeing that and still opening fire anyway, past any heat of the moment zone.

But this isn't that. This all happened very fast and Brown was doing things contrary to Wilson's commands very close to the time he died. Within moments of it. When we're talking about an injured officer facing two people, and opening fire mere moments after sustaining that attack... well, I'm just not inclined to judge his actions too harshly.

And remember there are legal provisions for a cop killing a fleeing violent felon so I'm not in crazy land here.

It's a hectic life and death situation the deceased created. Would take a LOT for me to feel the cop had done something worthy of prosecution.

 

[quadraginta]

Is it just me or are there people on this board who are a half step from peeing their pants in anticipation of getting to call someone a racist?

It's just you.

 

[Mumbles]

A very uncomfortable question that is.

Not really. There's a major gap between "push a store clerk" and "shoot a cop". The vast majority of people who would do the former, would never even consider the latter.

From inside the car?
Trying to grab a 6'4'' man weighing in at 290 lb. from a seated position behind a steering wheel and bang his head against the car?

I wonder how the scuffling at the car started.

So do I. We have two reports of Wilson trying to pull Brown in, as Brown resists. And one, from a guy who repeatedly states he couldn't see much, of "tussling". I could easily see, say, Wilson driving close and hitting Brown with the door when opening it, only to have Brown shove it closed. I don't see Brown jumping into the window to grab Wilson's gun - which IIRC is usually on the right hip. But Johnson's claim that Wilson was trying to pull Brown into the car is ridiculous. Towards, maybe. Into, no way.

I'm still leaning towards murder, based on what I've seen/heard, but we still have a lot of unreliable things here. And as I've said, given the absurd overreaction to protesters and...just people standing around, from the County PD, I don't trust them as far as I can spit.

 

[Mumbles]

It's just you.

Nah, someone else said it. before. My opinion (moved to AAH) has not changed in the slightest - it means another person who would rush to justify me or worse, one of my younger cousins, getting shot in the street, so it's just the latest in a long line of kicks to the teeth.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

A police officer cannot "murder" a violent felon who attacked him and went for his gun less than two minutes earlier. Manslaughter maaaaybe, under very specific and outrageous sets of facts.

 

[lionking]

A police officer cannot "murder" a violent felon who attacked him and went for his gun less than two minutes earlier. Manslaughter maaaaybe, under very specific and outrageous sets of facts.

Ex cathedra from you.

Any cites where police have never been charged for murder when allegedly attacked? ("Felon" is your construct by the way, Brown was not found to be a felon. Wilson was responsible for that).

Come on skeptic, you made the statement that a police officer cannot be charged when attacked. Prove it.

By the way skeptic, do you stand by your statement that Wilson should just walk despite his culpability?

 

[Lerxst]

OK - now we're both wrong. The SUV in my post earlier isn't Wilson's...nor is the one you asserted from the video that's down the road.

The two marked with arrows are the same vehicle with the bottom photo being taken much earlier in time and from some elevation.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=853&pictureid=9030[/qimg]

Brown's body is between Wilson's SUV in the top photo and the one marked with the arrow.

ETA: It is interesting to know that Brown's hat came off on the driver-side and his body ended up on the passenger. I'm glad you brought this up.

Yes he's definitely quite a bit away from Wilson's SUV. And facing back towards it, but of course we can only speculate if he turned around to surrender or if he started advancing on Wilson. It's clear some people are already convinced he was surrendering, but I'll wait until we have all of the evidence. We will know these things eventually.

If the photo on the bottom is a still from Crenshaw's video, then it definitely means she would have had a good view of what happened after Brown moved away from the SUV. She would not have had a good view of what happened on the drivers side of the SUV as it's a distance away and the passenger side is facing her.

 

[Giz]

It seems still to be up in the air.

It is possible that the sound recording is genuine and Wilson fired at the retreating Brown, who was rapidly getting away and then when Brown gave up, Wilson closed the distance and fired another volley. In which case Wilson has a serious case to answer.

However, a lot of facts are unconfirmed and it's also still possible that the eyewitnesses and sound recording aren't giving an accurate picture.

Being firmly wedded to a single guilt or innocence position at this instance is rather unskeptical IMHO.