Michael Brown Shooting

[johnny karate]

If he wasn't selling, why did he need whole boxes of cigarillos to make pot filled smokes? Um, Blunts was what somebody up thread called them?

So now he's a drug dealer because he stole a box of cigars? Wow.

He didn't steal a case, or hijack a truck full of them. He stole a box totaling, what... maybe 20 or so?

And that equates to being a drug dealer in your mind? With absolutely no other evidence to support such a belief?

Again... wow.

 

[newyorkguy]

Racial grievance hustlers like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson tell black kids that there is no sense working hard to get ahead as the deck is stacked against them, which becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. <snip>

Nonsense.

Jackson said he was meeting with clergy in St. Louis Monday to start a voter registration drive. "It has to change," Jackson said about the lack of minorities on Ferguson's police department and local governance. "Five thousand new voters will transform the city from top to bottom," he said.
St. Louis Post-Dispatch .Link

I'm old enough to remember MLK

If you're old enough to remember King you're old enough to remember he was vilified in exactly the same way. The head of the FBI once called him the most dangerous man in America. He was described as a rabblerouser, communist and outside agitator on the floor of the Congress. If you're old enough to remember King you're old enough to know if he was alive today he'd be marching with the protesters in Ferguson Missouri.

 

[johnny karate]

To be fair, I've gotten the impression that a lot of people would have howled regardless of when things were released. There's a strong "criticize the cops no matter what they do" vibe going.

I agree. You're always going to have that in situations like this.

But the police simply haven't handled the release of information in this case very well, and I think it has only exacerbated the situation, and fueled for mistrust of them in a community that didn't seem to have a whole lot of trust for them in the first place.

 

[newyorkguy]

So now he's a drug dealer because he stole a box of cigars? Wow. <snip>

Wait a minute. Do we know he stole a box of cigars. On the video someone has been attaching to their messages I don't see a box of cigars in his hands. In fact as he exits the store he doesn't seem to be carrying anything. I was under the impression he stole or his companion stole a handful. I have also seen it stated they put the cigars back on the counter.

What do we actually know?

 

[Monketi Ghost]

I know I'm still waiting on a cite for the Project Innocence assertion.

 

[Wolrab]

My oh so humble analysis of the autopsy diagram.
The shots are in a relatively tight pattern, most to the left of the shooter As the shots are just about all from the front, I assume the head shots were last. The graze on the lateral surface of the thumb (not palm) could easily be consistent with the hand in a closed position and elevated at lower rib height while running toward the cop. This would even tighten up the shot pattern.

If I am not mistaken, way earlier in the thread, a witness to the sounds of the shooting compared it to the sound of a machine gun meaning the cop was shooting as fast as he could. If Mr. Brown were to have stumbled and the last of the shots hit the top of his head (which would have been right in the shot pattern), all the wounds would be accounted for without an intentional coup de grase.

Or I might be totally wrong. If only they had a science that analyzed this stuff.

 

[William Parcher]

Wait a minute. Do we know he stole a box of cigars. On the video someone has been attaching to their messages I don't see a box of cigars in his hands. In fact as he exits the store he doesn't seem to be carrying anything. I was under the impression he stole or his companion stole a handful. I have also seen it stated they put the cigars back on the counter.

What do we actually know?

He can be seen taking one or two small boxes of small cigars. There were reports that these were Swisher Sweets which are flavored. They come in different sizes (both the cigar size and package size) but it looks like he took 6-packs of the smaller cigar sizes. These 6-packs fit easily in the hand.

If he had intended to hollow them out for reefer "blunts" he probably would have intentionally grabbed the Blunt or Perfecto sizes.

Here are the Swisher Sweets.

 

[William Parcher]

As the shots are just about all from the front,

Which ones are not from the front?

 

[trustbutverify]

That would be great. Then we'd know for certain what this person did or did not see, and have an actual, reliable record of it. I'm all for hearing different sides of the story from different witnesses. I'm just not willing to accept the garbled audio of random people discussing the incident in the background of a Youtube video, no matter which side they hurt or help.

Frankly, I'm a disappointed in the the lack of confirmed narrative from the police. Had they released the robbery video and an incident report early on it might have headed off a lot of this nonsense. I think they've only stoked the fires of mistrust with their handling of this case.

I'm not sure that would have helped at all.

 

[LTC8K6]

A second way to bring charges in the circuit court is through the grand jury. The grand jury is called to serve by the presiding circuit judge, typically at the request of the prosecuting attorney. The grand jury consists of 12 citizens selected by the court from a randomly chosen master jury list.

Once the grand jury is sworn in, they meet in secret and the prosecutor presents evidence to them in the cases he wants them to consider. There is no judge present. The accused has no right to attend, no right to question the evidence, or put on his side of the case. There is no record made in most cases. The prosecutor leaves the room while the jurors decide which “indictments” they will issue. Nine jurors must agree. The result is almost always whatever the prosecutor wants.

The fairness of this process is dependent on the judgment and integrity of the prosecutor. Most of the time the grand jury gives the prosecutor what he wants. If he has a reluctant witness, he just brings in a police officer to repeat what the victim told him. Hearsay is common in front of the grand jury.

http://blog.jeffcitylaw.com/?p=656

 

[Wolrab]

Which ones are not from the front?

I originally wrote they were all from the front then changed it...badly.
ETA: nevermind.

 

[LTC8K6]

That would be great. Then we'd know for certain what this person did or did not see, and have an actual, reliable record of it. I'm all for hearing different sides of the story from different witnesses. I'm just not willing to accept the garbled audio of random people discussing the incident in the background of a Youtube video, no matter which side they hurt or help.

Frankly, I'm a disappointed in the the lack of confirmed narrative from the police. Had they released the robbery video and an incident report early on it might have headed off a lot of this nonsense. I think they've only stoked the fires of mistrust with their handling of this case.

Well, if you release a narrative very early, it tends to influence witnesses that haven't given official statements yet.

 

[johnny karate]

Wait a minute. Do we know he stole a box of cigars. On the video someone has been attaching to their messages I don't see a box of cigars in his hands. In fact as he exits the store he doesn't seem to be carrying anything. I was under the impression he stole or his companion stole a handful. I have also seen it stated they put the cigars back on the counter.

What do we actually know?

Yeah, it might not have been a box, and only just a handful. My point though was the relatively low quantity necessary for casebro to jump to the conclusion that Brown was a drug dealer absent any other evidence for such a belief.

 

[LTC8K6]

What's funny is that no one is asking the right question. No one is even interested in why such a bias might exist?

The anger and unrest in Ferguson. You think that is unique? You think that comes from nowhere? That comes from somewhere, my friends. And figuring out where that anger comes from is the real issue at hand here. A community with no underlying resentment doesn't just blow up like this over a police shooting. A nation that doesn't already have some problems with how modern police forces work doesn't become as polarized as the USA currently is over this issue.

We are all obsessing over how one particular tree fell over and completely missing the fact that the entire forest was clearcut and no one wants to talk about it.

I think you are way off.

The rioting is mostly from agitators and opportunity seekers.

The citizens certainly have some anger towards the police, but they are not getting violent over it, for the most part.

There is less pent up anger busting out in violence, and more jackasses and criminals taking advantage, imo.

I'm sure riots in the past have largely been from pent up anger over injustices, but this one is mostly not, imo.

 

[newyorkguy]

He can be seen taking one or two small boxes of small cigars. They come in different sizes (both the cigar size and package size) but it looks like he took 6-packs of the smaller cigar sizes. These 6-packs fit easily in the hand. <snip>

Then alleging Brown stole "a box of cigars" sounds like spin because six-packs aren't boxes. I think they retail for about ten or twelve dollars although earlier it was stated he stole fifty dollars worth of cigars. That may have been exaggerated too?

Even if it wasn't, stealing fifty dollars worth of cigars is robbery but under Missouri law it isn't a felony. It's a misdemeanor.

Class A Misdemeanor Theft. If the value of the property or services stolen is less than $500, the theft is a class A misdemeanor under Missouri law. (Mo. Rev. Stat. § 570.030.) Link

 

[Wolrab]

Try and position your hand so that thumb wound is in line with the shooter. If that shot was from the front, the only ways to line it up is:


From behind...

If it happened in the vehicle, who knows.

 

[LTC8K6]

Try and position your hand so that thumb wound is in line with the shooter. If that shot was from the front, the only ways to line it up is:


From behind...

If it happened in the vehicle, who knows.

It's easy to line up the thumb wound with the shooter, imo.

Just imagine someone putting their right hand out to shake hands.

Imagine it as a hand position, I mean.

 

[LTC8K6]

Then alleging Brown stole "a box of cigars" sounds like spin because six-packs aren't boxes. I think they retail for about ten or twelve dollars although earlier it was stated he stole fifty dollars worth of cigars. That may have been exaggerated too?

Even if it wasn't, stealing fifty dollars worth of cigars is robbery but under Missouri law it isn't a felony. It's a misdemeanor.

The force makes it a felony, though.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Then alleging Brown stole "a box of cigars" sounds like spin because six-packs aren't boxes.

This is pretty much all his supporters have left to cling to.

Even if it wasn't, stealing fifty dollars worth of cigars is robbery but under Missouri law it isn't a felony. It's a misdemeanor.

True. If he hadn't assaulted the clerk, then the police would have "executed" a non-felon.

 

[johnny karate]

I'm not sure that would have helped at all.

Maybe. Maybe not. But the current results are certainly less than satisfactory.

And the other thing to remember is that this didn't occur in a vacuum. Not to excuse looters and rioters (and we certainly shouldn't), but to lay all of this at the feet of the populace is a bit myopic.

The police department in Ferguson strikes me as an inept one that serves as wardens of their community rather than protectors of it. It seems that civil unrest has been simmering for a while, and the Brown shooting only served as a flashpoint for something that might have been moving towards inevitability anyway.

The sad part is, that in the final analysis, a lot of the nuance will be lost, and this will be looked at by most as just a bunch of idiots rioting for no good reason.