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Steel shipped to China...

Please show me the post you were referring to in that thread.
You can start at #1, there's plenty of links in #4.

He goes on to much much more the longer you read. His facts are not wrong. His interpretation as to intent on the other hand is. Anyway you look at it, it proves your statement a lie. I'm not saying you are lying, you could be just woefully ignorant of the facts.
 
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You talk BS, talk of glaring deficiencies, yet they remain complete BS, and you can't produce anything of value for 911.

The WTC towers were hit by planes, it knocked out the fire systems and made it impossible to fight the fires. The impacts equal in energy of a 2,000 pound bomb knocked off insulation giving zero time for the steel to be protected. WTC 7 burned all day, and collapsed, an expected event when you don't' fight the fire.

you lost this one based on reality

You don't understand fire, and engineering, so you make up a fantasy of, glaring deficiencies you can't define, can't explain. Good luck

Then you go with a story the terrorists are alive, yet they were dead, they were really on the 4 planes, and they died. People with the same names still alive are not the same people, the BBC ran a story of BS, false, and you use it as evidence for what? MSM is in on it, remember the 911 truth claims! lol, you can't figure out 911 after 13 years, and you can't make any valid claims for your fantasy of, "glaring deficiencies".

Each of your " glaring deficiencies" is due to ignornace, lack of study, no knowledge of flying, FAA, NTSB, RADAR, fire, fire science, engineering, physics, reading comprehends, poor logic, and more.

You quote-mine stuff and make up BS about it.

Because steel buildings don't just free fall when they're affected by fire. Do you think that it just simultaneously turned to jelly when it failed?

You obviously think there was no need to carry out an investigation at all then.
 
I came across that 4 number in a FEMA report and thought it couldn't be right. Surely more physical evidence from a crime and disaster of this magnitude would have been retained. The same FEMA report stated that numerous other pieces of steel marked for retention were accidentally scrapped as well. The last time I raised this on this forum no one could even concede that some portions of the investigation were compromised because they think that may somehow hurt their argument. And these guys call themselves intellectuals. :D

IIRC, most of the steel was shipped to Long Island, and didn't even leave New York. Where it was pored over by hand by investigators looking for remains. Some of it was given away. Some of it was kept.

Surely you're having a laugh and messing with me?

A building *********** free fell,
Nope, wrong.


Edited by LashL: 
Edited to properly mask profanity in quote. Please, don't quote obvious rule breaches; doing so only makes more work for the Moderation Team.


and you don't think it'd be relevant to hang onto the only physical evidence they had in order to determine why? C'mon , I thought you were better than this.
How much of a skyscraper's worth of evidence do you think they would need to keep, exactly? Heck, several people, including one poster in this forum, saw the collapse coming as soon as the plane hit.

There's no need to ignore or make excuses for glaring deficiencies in the investigation. If everyone knew it was the 19 highjackers what then was the point of hanging onto any material at all.
Well, which is it? Did they hang on to the steel for investigation, or ship it all off because they figured out what happened?

You obviously don't understand the significance of a steel high rise collapsing from fire and the implications that has on similar structures.
Fire and impact. Y'all seem to quite consistently forget both.

The problem with this is that for the official story to be true, they need 100% of the story to be true.
No, they just need it to be the overwhelmingly most likely sequence of events.

For there to be evidence of conspiracy, all I need is some percentage to be found a flat out lie. ...
Oh, goodie.

The BBC is a global news organization. Its tendrils did what they were trained to do, seek pertinent information. They found one of the alleged hijackers alive and scared as hell. It did a story found here in their archives:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1559151.stm

The grounds they used to dismiss this story were that it was just confusion about names. They just mistakenly asked a guy who had the same name without any other correlating information and ran with it.
Because people having the same names as other people, or news sources going with incorrect information, is clearly evidence of dishonesty.

Incidentally, here's a list of people mistaken for the Boston Marathon Bomber.

Problem is, this doesn't jibe with the contents of the article. The man CLEARLY states that it is HIS picture which is used. The man states that he also attended flight training in the US. The man states his reason for being in the States. The man states his passport was lost (stolen?) in Denver. The article also states that another of the men has come forward due to a mistaken identity.
Sweet. So why did the bad guys let this story get past their censors in the first place?

Revisionism, changing history to HIS-story. Suppression of dissent.
And cute little meaningless catchphrases.

The BBC later retracted this article.
Looks perfectly fine to me. How does it differ from any other article of the time period? Maybe it was just mass-archived.

Remember with web crawlers erasing it was basically impossible. Even going so far as to directly discourage questioning of the official story and forwarding the suppressive label of questioning as "conspiracy theory":

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/legacy/th..._theory_1.html

There are links within this article to reports which allegedly supersede the original story. Problem is, those reports don't talk at all about ANYTHING in the original story. They are just "on message" with the official story of the FBI. So in effect the BBC just wrote the first story out of history. Here is what they feel "supersedes" the original report:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1567815.stm

Wail M Alshehri, 33, may have lived in Hollywood, Florida, and Newton, Massachusetts.


That blurb wiped the entire previous story out of history? That man identified HIS PICTURE. That man stated that he was a flight student. That man confirmed he was in the states. No follow up. Nothing. Just rewritten. Does this make sense to you?
Except, here's the funny thing; he's still listed as a suspect. I literally just checked Wikipedia. Same picture. You seem desperate to attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by mistakes.

Also, the BBC is an actually half decent news apparatus so it may have some integrity, unlike the US corporate media. Check this out at the bottom of one of the linked articles:

There is no direct evidence in the public domain linking Osama Bin Laden to the 11 September attacks.

At best the evidence is circumstantial.


Yet this is the basis for for the US and her allies waging a GLOBAL war?
No, that would be the classified proof, according to the FBI, which they haven't released because of NatSec concerns. And, since they were doing it by the book, his Most Wanted profile never actually mentioned 9/11, nor was he ever actually indicted. Honestly, the US had more than enough "just cause" to "neutralize" him even before 9/11.

Because steel buildings don't just free fall when they're affected by fire.
No, it generally takes a while to heat up and weaken the steel. And, again, you're deliberately ignoring the plane crash.

Do you think that it just simultaneously turned to jelly when it failed?
I doubt it.

You obviously think there was no need to carry out an investigation at all then.

Oh, look, a straw man.
 
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Because steel buildings don't just free fall when they're affected by fire. Do you think that it just simultaneously turned to jelly when it failed?

You obviously think there was no need to carry out an investigation at all then.
You don't understand fire and steel.
woodsteelfire.jpg

Oops, fire did it.
onemeridiansag.jpg

oops, the floor sagged in a building where the fires were fought, yet, the building was never used again, totaled like WTC 7 but did not collapse. Fire, did it. But go ahead, believe lies from 911 truth, you don't have to do any thinking to accept lies, you have to do research to understand fire, and math and physics to understand the collapse. Yet, most lay people understand.

Darn overtime for the NWO shills here - guess they will approve my overtime...

The biggest investigation in history took place - what do you think most the FBI was doing on 911 after the second plane impacted? They were starting the biggest investigation in history. LETS SEE, the airlines reported FOUR hijackings, which turned out to be fake, it was actually murderers stealing four aircraft to use as weapons of mass destruction.

Each plane had the ability to act as a large Kinetic Energy weapon with more energy than a 2,000 pound bomb - then the fires from the jet fuel would be the heat energy equal to 130 TONS of TNT.

WTC 1 and 2 were never in free-fall, why do you generalize with a Big Lie?\

WTC 7 exterior, a point on WTC 7 was studied to be in free-fall for 2 to 3 seconds, but the interior had already collapsed 10 second before - total time for fall of WTC 7 over 16 seconds, means it was not near free-fall.

Oops, you got it wrong.

You missed the investigation, you missed timing the entire WTC collapse. You quote mine 911 truth and spread lies.

What is your fantasy version of 911.

My version is 19 terrorists took 4 planes and hit three of their targets. No CD, no thermite, no explosives. Winner is my version - all the evidence supports me.

Why can't you figure out 911 - I can't believe you brought up the terrorists being alive - that is the dumbest claim, at least in the top ten.
 
Oh, and I forgot to point out; during 9/11, the BBC reported that WTC 7 had collapsed...while WTC 7 was visible in the shot behind the reporter. Some truthers took this as evidence that the BBC had been fed the story ahead of time and jumped the gun, instead of a mistake and coincidence.

If it's the former, then they're Part of It and made a mistake, and there's no reason for the bad guys to trust them. If not, then they're not as reliable as you claim. Moreover, you haven't explained how this lie would actually profit the hypothetical conspirators, much less how you determined a mistake was impossible. IIRC, you don't even mention the possibility of error.

Also, you're demonstrating "Truther ADHD" - the tendency to change the subject when the heat starts rising.
 
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You have two problems with this.

(1) You think there is an "official story"

(2) You think that finding one "flat out lie" invalidates the whole story when you use your own interpretation of the story.

I do not understand this.
1) I think there is an "official story" because there is an "official story". The "facts" as told by the FBI, i.e., the government. The story is that those 19 men, who have all been pictured, committed this crime. This is corroborated and supported by the "evidence". That is the official story. The story which was formed by the interpretation of the evidence you forwarded as why you believe these 19 men did this.

2) What is my "interpretation" of the story? I told you what was in the article. It said the man was alive, had been to the US, had attended pilot training, lost his passport, and was contesting his involvement from Morocco. What is my "interpretation" given what was in the article? Given the "official story" this makes absolutely no sense and perfect sense at the same time. The man's movement profile and identity are a perfect candidate for theft and a cover.

Also, even more strange is the article said to "supersede" the article. The article which superseded the previous article only contained that small blurb about this man, i.e., nothing. It didn't attempt to address, dispute, or even correct ANYTHING forwarded in the original article. It just said something different. If anyone in real life used this method of explaining a life changing event you would go ballistic and look for evidence.

Sir, your wife died of a heart attack.

What?

Your wife died of cancer, this diagnosis supersedes all previous diagnosis.

WTF?!?! What about the heart attack?

Do not inquire about the previous diagnosis.
 
I do not understand this.
... interpretation of the evidence you forwarded as why you believe these 19 men did this.

2) What is my "interpretation" of the story? I told you what was in the article. It said the man was alive, had been to the US, had attended pilot training, lost his passport, and was contesting his involvement from Morocco. What is my "interpretation" given what was in the article? Given the "official story" this makes absolutely no sense and perfect sense at the same time. The man's movement profile and identity are a perfect candidate for theft and a cover.
...

the alive terrorists card - the dumbest card in the deck

Why did you pick the dumbest claim as your fantasy version of 911.

When we have a crew member tells who did it, you go for the failed news article about BS.

What is your fantasy version of 911? Too bad you don't understand psychics, can't wait for the Flight 93 and 77 BS.
 
I do not understand this.
1) I think there is an "official story" because there is an "official story". The "facts" as told by the FBI, i.e., the government. The story is that those 19 men, who have all been pictured, committed this crime. This is corroborated and supported by the "evidence". That is the official story. The story which was formed by the interpretation of the evidence you forwarded as why you believe these 19 men did this.

They didn't tell me how the buildings collapse, I figured that out for myself. I had a real good idea who was behind this on 9/11, I didn't need to be told. I can see how things are in the world and I don't need to invent a boogie-man. Fact of the matter is, Americans are really good a pissing people off, I should know, I am one.

2) What is my "interpretation" of the story? I told you what was in the article. It said the man was alive, had been to the US, had attended pilot training, lost his passport, and was contesting his involvement from Morocco. What is my "interpretation" given what was in the article? Given the "official story" this makes absolutely no sense and perfect sense at the same time. The man's movement profile and identity are a perfect candidate for theft and a cover.

Do you believe everything you read in the papers on the day of the event? I like to wait for the facts to come in.

As far as your "free-fall" belief. Sorry, I'm not going to teach you what you don't know about physics. What you think you know, is wrong (ask a physics teacher sometime).
 
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As far as your "free-fall" belief. Sorry, I'm not going to teach you what you don't know about physics. What you think you know, is wrong (ask a physics teacher sometime).
I'd be careful which physics teacher you ask. I can think of one who made the classic mistake of thinking only something freely falling can achieve g acceleration.
 
2) What is my "interpretation" of the story? I told you what was in the article. It said the man was alive, had been to the US, had attended pilot training, lost his passport, and was contesting his involvement from Morocco. What is my "interpretation" given what was in the article? Given the "official story" this makes absolutely no sense and perfect sense at the same time. The man's movement profile and identity are a perfect candidate for theft and a cover.
I love how you're so studiously ignoring the possibility that it was innocent.

Also, even more strange is the article said to "supersede" the article. The article which superseded the previous article only contained that small blurb about this man, i.e., nothing. It didn't attempt to address, dispute, or even correct ANYTHING forwarded in the original article. It just said something different. If anyone in real life used this method of explaining a life changing event you would go ballistic and look for evidence.
They made a correction about one detail of the event. As is their journalistic responsibility.

Sir, your wife died of a heart attack.

What?

Your wife died of cancer, this diagnosis supersedes all previous diagnosis.

WTF?!?! What about the heart attack?

Do not inquire about the previous diagnosis.

At which point you sue for malpractice. However, newspapers just issue corrections.

Again, why aren't you talking about the steel? (he asked rhetorically)
 
You don't understand fire and steel.
[qimg]http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/woodsteelfire.jpg[/qimg]
Oops, fire did it.
[qimg]http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/onemeridiansag.jpg[/qimg]
oops, the floor sagged in a building where the fires were fought, yet, the building was never used again, totaled like WTC 7 but did not collapse. Fire, did it. But go ahead, believe lies from 911 truth, you don't have to do any thinking to accept lies, you have to do research to understand fire, and math and physics to understand the collapse. Yet, most lay people understand.

Darn overtime for the NWO shills here - guess they will approve my overtime...

The biggest investigation in history took place - what do you think most the FBI was doing on 911 after the second plane impacted? They were starting the biggest investigation in history. LETS SEE, the airlines reported FOUR hijackings, which turned out to be fake, it was actually murderers stealing four aircraft to use as weapons of mass destruction.

Each plane had the ability to act as a large Kinetic Energy weapon with more energy than a 2,000 pound bomb - then the fires from the jet fuel would be the heat energy equal to 130 TONS of TNT.

WTC 1 and 2 were never in free-fall, why do you generalize with a Big Lie?\

WTC 7 exterior, a point on WTC 7 was studied to be in free-fall for 2 to 3 seconds, but the interior had already collapsed 10 second before - total time for fall of WTC 7 over 16 seconds, means it was not near free-fall.

Oops, you got it wrong.

You missed the investigation, you missed timing the entire WTC collapse. You quote mine 911 truth and spread lies.

What is your fantasy version of 911.

My version is 19 terrorists took 4 planes and hit three of their targets. No CD, no thermite, no explosives. Winner is my version - all the evidence supports me.

Why can't you figure out 911 - I can't believe you brought up the terrorists being alive - that is the dumbest claim, at least in the top ten.

Ok, so the pics show some bent steel and sagging floors. How is this relevant to 911? Did NIST's physical tests have similar results. If not, what were the results?

The biggest investigation in history allowed for the destruction of physical evidence. It was compromised. You obviously think it sufficient to retain just 4 pieces of steel from the first known instance of a tall building being brought down primarily by uncontrolled fire.

Now, I don't quite understand how the whole "kinetic energy/heat energy/TNT" thing is relevant to WTC7. Where did all of that energy go anyway?

I'm discussing the free-fall of WTC7, not the other two towers. The other two were essentially in free-fall according to the NIST but let's not digress. Where did you get the info regarding WTC7's collapse times? I thought that NIST admitted that the building was in free-fall for at least part of its descent.
 
The biggest investigation in history allowed for the destruction of physical evidence.

Do you believe the "biggest (criminal) investigation in history" should have included the collapse of the buildings? If so, explain why. I think that was a consequence of their actions and their identities is what's important.

Do you have evidence some group other than the accepted perpetrated this?

I hate to tell you, The collapses are not actually included in this "biggest investigation". The one you hope to connect your missing steel doesn't have anything to do with the criminal investigation and is not even in the top ten as far as engineering investigations.
 
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You obviously think it sufficient to retain just 4 pieces of steel...

Begging the question. You may be seem aghast, but you don't get to project your shock and dismay on the professional community.

...from the first known instance of a tall building being brought down primarily by uncontrolled fire.

Brought down by a combination of extraordinary physical damage and unfought fires raging for several hours. This is far beyond what any such building is meant to endure. The building was evacuated and no further loss of life occurred when the building was lost. You beg the question that this is of utmost interested to engineers -- it is not.

I thought that NIST admitted that the building was in free-fall for at least part of its descent.

There's a whole separate thread, active now, regarding the collapse of WTC 7 and its probable causes and characteristics. There's yet a third thread on how the vertical speed of the collapse has been variously analyzed.

Go read those threads and then try to understand the data.
 
Brought down by a combination of extraordinary physical damage and unfought fires raging for several hours. This is far beyond what any such building is meant to endure. The building was evacuated and no further loss of life occurred when the building was lost. You beg the question that this is of utmost interested to engineers -- it is not.

Well said.

The fact of the matter is, WTC 7 performed better than code and there is no reason to change codes to make it better. The lessons adopted after the tower investigations more than cover building 7. Protect the core fire suppression and assure adequate egress for the occupants. You can't make them collapse proof, no one would pay to build them.
 
The fact of the matter is, WTC 7 performed better than code and there is no reason to change codes to make it better.

Truthers shifted their focus to WTC 7 only after their claims regarding the Twin Towers failed to achieve any traction. Because they were the primary targets of the terrorists and because so many people died in the subsequent fires and collapse, these structures were subject to much greater scrutiny, leaving little ambiguity for conspiracy theorists to drive a wedge.

WTC 7 was a secondary casualty, and presented no special danger or controversy. Hence the investigation into its ultimate loss didn't need to be as rigorous. Because of that, Truthers have more holes into which to drive an inconsequential wedge. They trump up the alleged importance of this structure. But it really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. It imposed no extraordinary loss of life or property, and it performed admirably despite impediments in its design purity (i.e., the need to accommodate a power substation) and inevitably fatal damage.

You can't make them collapse proof, no one would pay to build them.

Starting in 2002 clients were willing to pay fairly exorbitant costs for armored cores, multiple egress routes, etc. after learning the specifics of WTC 1 and 2. Not so anymore. A decade hence we've gone back to relatively similar building designs as WTC 7.

Engineer and author Henry Petroski writes extensively about this. People are willing to pay for the engineering they think solves the ephemeral concerns of the day. One day people are worried about cost. The next day they're worried about survivability. People's priorities change.

In a similar vein we don't build ships to be unsinkable. We build ships to stay afloat for long enough that the passengers can be rescued. After Titanic sank, Britannic was built to replace her. And Olympic was hauled into dry dock to have her watertight bulkheads extended the full height of the hull, as Britannic had been built to do. This was not so that these ships would be unsinkable, but because the original design principles of the Olympic class liners had left a loophole. Titanic's bulkheads were built such that once they were overtopped, the hull would already have shipped enough water to be unsalvageable. However it was understood following the loss of Titanic that had the bulkheads extended higher, the ship would have remained afloat for longer (although eventually have sunk) and that rescue ships would have had more time to arrive.

Engineers do not design for capability beyond that which is required, because that's expensive and it doesn't help. Certain scenarios are considered inevitably fatal and no effort is meant to address them. This was made awkwardly evident by the Challenger space shuttle loss in which it was revealed that the crew survived the initial deflagration and breakup. That had not previously been considered a survivable event. Hence there was no engineering to cover that scenario.

Ideally a building will survive a catastrophic injury until the last occupant has reached minimum safe distance. Then, if inevitable, it will collapse. it's ideal because the building will have fulfilled its highest obligation at the least cost. The joke goes that any jackass can build a bridge that stands up, but it takes an engineer to build a bridge that just barely stands up.
 

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