[Merged] General Criticism of Islam/Islamophobia Topics

[rtved]

our history books are full of pedos.
in Europe there were cases of marriage at 7 years in Royal houses and that was much later than Mo.
why do people refer to a Slavery supporter? most people on this planet think he is a great moral guide despite his support for slavery.

that's religions.

moral standards change over time, that is why we don0t usualy see children being married.

None of them said they must be followed. That is the issue here. Muslims were told to follow muhammad.

 

[DC]

None of them said they must be followed. That is the issue here. Muslims were told to follow muhammad.

and they do follow him in this regard? I would argue that the overwhelming majority does not follow him in this regard. even in most Muslim majority countries it would be illegal.

 

[DC]

Muslims, like all other religious people, cherry pick from the old books whatever they like and ignore whatever they don't like. And I am very happy they do that. or I would have get stoned over and over again for blasphemy and my atheism.

 

[rtved]

That it "indicates a child" is your interpretation - the hadith doesn't mention age at all.

Ofcourse that is my interpretation. Why there should be any doubt ?.

I also said that age was not mentioned in the hadith.

I didn't leave anything from the hadith

The first hadith says "I saw an angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said to him," ... indicating it is a child (carried in a silken cloth).

spamming it seems is one way of actually making readers lose interest and thus successfully burying the Issue.

And Bukhari 3895 describes the vision rather differently:

Narrated `Aisha:

That the Prophet said to her, "You have been shown to me twice in my dream. I saw you pictured on a piece of silk and some-one said (to me). 'This is your wife.' When I uncovered the picture, I saw that it was yours. I said, 'If this is from Allah, it will be done."

That hadith is relevent HOW ?. I know the answer .More spam.

There are two(or more) dreams and two hadiths.The hadith I quoted says Aisha was carried by angel covered with silk cloth.That shows, by logical deduction , a description of child.

The hadith you quoted hadith doesn't have anything to Indicate age or size.

Anyhow, you are very succesfull in burying the issue by spam with good assistance from people who have attention span of a gnat .

 

[rtved]

and they do follow him in this regard? I would argue that the overwhelming majority does not follow him in this regard. even in most Muslim majority countries it would be illegal.

Those who follow him become terrorists. Killing people by surprise raids (Not war,btw) on human habitations is what muhammad did.

Obviously every muslim don't follow muhammad.

 

[rtved]

as I said, in your first post you quoted nothing that would indicate a child.
you did in later posts.

And you didn't read them. Apparently that is my fault.

I am out.

 

[A'isha]

Ofcourse that is my interpretation. Why there should be any doubt ?.

I also said that age was not mentioned in the hadith.

Which means I was correct, and (in a twist of either irony or projection) it's been your posts that have been filled with irrelevant spam to try and distract from that.

That hadith is relevent HOW ?.

Because it confirms what I said about how the visions of 'A'isha make no reference to her age, and shows that in at least one recounting of the visions Muhammad wasn't even shown 'A'isha directly, but shown an image.

There are two(or more) dreams and two hadiths.The hadith I quoted says Aisha was carried by angel covered with silk cloth.That shows, by logical deduction , a description of child.

Hardly. It's an attempt to retrofit a predetermined conclusion about 'A'isha's age onto something that, by your own admission, doesn't mention it at all.

 

[A'isha]

Those who follow him become terrorists. Killing people by surprise raids (Not war,btw) on human habitations is what muhammad did.

Obviously every muslim don't follow muhammad.

This must be more of that non-Islamophobic "real criticism of Islam" I keep hearing so much about.

 

[DC]

Those who follow him become terrorists. Killing people by surprise raids (Not war,btw) on human habitations is what muhammad did.

Obviously every muslim don't follow muhammad.

uuuh, every moslem I know would disagree, they do think they do follow their Mo, but they don't think that terrorists follow Mo. they ctually think killing innocent people is against the Islamic teachings.
and considering that the overwhelming majority of Muslims are not terrorists, I think that this is the dominant interpretation of their religion.

and I rather take the opinion of them instead of yours. you seem to be one that thinks only terrorists are real moslems that truly follow their Mo.

 

[DC]

And you didn't read them. Apparently that is my fault.

I am out.

I did read them, but I replied to a post that did not contain any of those verses.

and btw, I have problem accepting the age of 6 for marriage and 9 for first time sex with her, and I do see that as paedophilia in todays view.

 

[Dcdrac]

Fact is this thread is not a genuine critique of Islam it is picking on just one religion.

Fact all major religions have extremist followers

Fact Islam is not the only religion that attracts extremists

Fact like the other monoethestic religions its Holy Book and tracts reflect the time of its creation

Fact there is no one homogenous Islamic world view or version of Islam

 

[Humes fork]

Fact is this thread is not a genuine critique of Islam it is picking on just one religion.

So a "genuine" thread about Islam must be a thread about other religions?

 

[Humes fork]

I haven't watched it, but it's probably interesting.

 

[Tommy Jeppesen]

So a "genuine" thread about Islam must be a thread about other religions?

Yes, anything about Islam ought not just to be just about Islam, but about other relevant aspects of the human experience including other religions and religion as such, but not just religion.
Can you explain the meaning of life, the universe and all that? How do you explain what you know about this? How do you explain that there are other explanations? How do you compare different explanations? And so on

 

[A'isha]

I haven't watched it,

And yet you're posting it anyway, just because it's Ibn Warraq. How skeptical of you.

but it's probably interesting.

An interesting display of faith.

 

[Dissolution]

Again, there is no mention of her age in the stories about the visions. Other unrelated sources state she was a child, but not the stories of the vision. The traditions are a jigsaw jumble, not a coherent story.

What relevance does this have?
The stories about the vision state that he was told to marry Aisha and other stories indicate that she was a child at the time.
There's nothing to indicate that the vision of her was of an older Aisha or some metaphoric placeholder for her, so the vision would appear to be of her as she was.

He went on to marry her when she was a child and consummate the relationship when she was a child, so there doesn't appear to be any prohibition against this behaviour in Islam, as God told Mohammed to do it.
It's perfectly understandable that other Muslims would see similar behaviour as either permissible or at least nor forbidden.
Some may even see it as something desirable, following in the footsteps of the prophet.

I'm not sure how else I can explain this to you without repeating myself. Not everything that Muhammad did is part of the Sunnah, which is why different groups of Muslims have differing views about 'A'isha's marriage to Muhammad, because those different groups consider different things to be included and/or excluded from the Sunnah. The Salafiyya consider 'A'isha's marriage to Muhammad to be part of it, while al-Azhar al-Sharif does not consider 'A'isha's marriage to Muhammad to be part of it.

Still irrelevant and you still haven't addressed my point.
This was an act committed by the prophet and ordered by God.
Saying that some Muslims don't consider it to be prat of the Sunnah is meaningless.

Which I agree with in principle. However, I'm far more interested in seeing that things like child marriage and FGM/C get ended no matter where they occur or what justification is used for them, which is why I'm all for the one interpretation and wholeheartedly against the other.

And a religion whose prophet married a child is probably going to have a problem speaking out against those emulating that act.
There may be some exceptions to that, but those who promote such behaviour will always have something fairly strong to fall back on, to those who share their faith.

That it "indicates a child" is your interpretation - the hadith doesn't mention age at all. And Bukhari 3895 describes the vision rather differently:

Narrated `Aisha:

That the Prophet said to her, "You have been shown to me twice in my dream. I saw you pictured on a piece of silk and some-one said (to me). 'This is your wife.' When I uncovered the picture, I saw that it was yours. I said, 'If this is from Allah, it will be done."

Bukhari also gives her age in a later passage.
Given that the "picture was yours" (Aisha's) and she was six at the time, it seems odd to suggest that the vision wasn't of a child.
I really don't know where that argument comes from. It seems bizarre.

 

[Belgian thought]

Fact is this thread is not a genuine critique of Islam it is picking on just one religion.

Fact all major religions have extremist followers

Fact Islam is not the only religion that attracts extremists

Fact like the other monoethestic religions its Holy Book and tracts reflect the time of its creation

Fact there is no one homogenous Islamic world view or version of Islam

This thread is about Islam, therefore references to it. There are other threads about other religions on this board.

Since criticism of Islam is deemed 'Islamaphobic' and there appears to be no 'valid' claim against it, having considered this argument, I make the following claim.

"Islam is perfect and so is the Koran which it based on'.

Do not criticise this statement unless it is a valid criticism.

However, having said that Islam is perfect, your criticism must be too.

Over to you guys.

 

[Dcdrac]

yes it should be a discussion about the faults of all religions and not a diatribe against one of them.

for the record I do not believe in a deity of any kind also I do not believe in using catch all nostrums about one faith to cast whole groups of people in a bad light simply because I do not accept their faith.

To present Islam as one homogenous block of beliefs, denies history and is deeply dishonest.

Show me the true agenda.

 

[DC]

What relevance does this have?
The stories about the vision state that he was told to marry Aisha and other stories indicate that she was a child at the time.
There's nothing to indicate that the vision of her was of an older Aisha or some metaphoric placeholder for her, so the vision would appear to be of her as she was.

He went on to marry her when she was a child and consummate the relationship when she was a child, so there doesn't appear to be any prohibition against this behaviour in Islam, as God told Mohammed to do it.
It's perfectly understandable that other Muslims would see similar behaviour as either permissible or at least nor forbidden.
Some may even see it as something desirable, following in the footsteps of the prophet.



Still irrelevant and you still haven't addressed my point.
This was an act committed by the prophet and ordered by God.
Saying that some Muslims don't consider it to be prat of the Sunnah is meaningless.



And a religion whose prophet married a child is probably going to have a problem speaking out against those emulating that act.
There may be some exceptions to that, but those who promote such behaviour will always have something fairly strong to fall back on, to those who share their faith.



Bukhari also gives her age in a later passage.
Given that the "picture was yours" (Aisha's) and she was six at the time, it seems odd to suggest that the vision wasn't of a child.
I really don't know where that argument comes from. It seems bizarre.

Considering the todays legal age for marriage in most muslim countries it seems evident that they had not much problems arguing against child marriage. Sure there still is today the problem of childmarriage inmany countries, but to is rather a cultural problem unrelated to religions.

And the controvery about her age comes from moslems since a very long time.

 

[A'isha]

What relevance does this have?

Because your arguments are predicated on there being one coherent connected story: "Muhammad was shown a vision of six year old 'A'isha". And I'm trying to explain to you that there are different, separate lines of tradition, which is why different groups of Muslims interpret those traditions differently.

There's nothing to indicate that the vision of her was of an older Aisha or some metaphoric placeholder for her, so the vision would appear to be of her as she was.

The visions don't mention her age at all; like rtved, you're adding your own interpretation to the stories of the vision.

Still irrelevant and you still haven't addressed my point.
This was an act committed by the prophet and ordered by God.
Saying that some Muslims don't consider it to be prat of the Sunnah is meaningless.

Ok, one more time: The Sunnah is what Muslims are supposed to follow. Muslims don't consider everything Muhammad did and said to be part of the Sunnah. So, yeah, the fact that some Muslims don't consider it to be part of the Sunnah is entirely meaningful, and it's why the argument that Muslims have to be in favor of modern child marriage because Muhammad did it holds no water whatsoever for those Muslims who don't consider it part of the Sunnah.

And a religion whose prophet married a child is probably going to have a problem speaking out against those emulating that act.

So why do you insist on making it harder for those who speak out against it by insisting that they're wrong and those who promote the practice of child marriage are right?

Seriously, I will never understand why so many non-Muslim "critics of Islam" insist that the worst interpretation of Islam is the most right one and the Muslims who believe that interpretation are simply doing what their religion tells them to do , and when shown the example of Muslims who are fighting against that interpretation start arguing that those Muslims are getting their own religion wrong (often using the exact same religious arguments as those Muslims who promote that worst interpretation).