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[Merged] General Criticism of Islam/Islamophobia Topics

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because of the fact that he (erdogan) established AKP .

Meaning it wasn't part of AKP's platform.

Obviosuly there are millions egyptians whose rights are going to be trampled under "islamic brother hood's " sharia constitution. Naturally they demonstrated.

Glad you finally admit that.

That was what happened when the minorities and secularists didn't vote in referendum for sharia and thus the sharia bill/draft passed with 95% of those voted approving the constitution.

As you yourself were forced to admit right below, no, it didn't pass with 95% of those voting approving the constitution.

What happened ?. feeling uncomfortable ?.

No, I'm highlighting the ridiculousness of your attempted argument.

That is simple counting of numbers. What is with the range you quoted ?.

It's not the "range", it's the percentage of for vs. against votes.

I did make mistake in percentage votes.

Yes, you did.

here are the numbers : Votes for (Sharia)constitution 10,693,911 (63.8%)
Votes against 6,061,101 (36.2%).

Which...are exactly the numbers I posted.

Now, What percentage of muslims are against sharia constitution .Since, about 20 % of egyptian population consists of christians and others not strictly adhering to with Islam (closet atheists, secular muslims etc) the vote can be taken to say s majority of Muslims favor Sharia.

Not even close. There were ten million "yes" votes, or 20% of the eligible voters (and 12% of the whole population). 80% of the eligible voters (or 88% of the whole population) either voted "no", or didn't bother to vote.

And, again, those ten million "yes" voters were dwarfed by the protesters.

As I said before the journalist don't have anything spectacular as face recognizing software and scanning hardware to determine numbers in a demonstration.

Er...they don't need to. Estimating crowd sizes doesn't require fancy technology...the US National Park Service does that sort of thing all the time without "anything spectacular as face recognizing software and scanning hardware".

The link you quoted says nothing against sharia. As per the link the opposition was worried about sweeping powers handed over to Morsi.

Oh, right, that link must have been talking about all those pro-shari'ah liberal, secular and leftist groups that made up the opposition National Salvation Front.

My bad.
 
More from the right wing via a Salon columnist:
Heritage Foundation Benghazi panel descends into Islamophobic freak show
According to the Washington Post’s Dana Milbank, while the panel rather quickly and predictably transitioned from vague expressions of concern about a Benghazi conspiracy to a more free-floating animus toward Islam and Muslims, things didn’t get really ugly until one audience member, an American University law student named Saba Ahmed, decided to push back against the panelists’ many ignorant and harmful assertions.

“We portray Islam and all Muslims as bad, but there’s 1.8 billion followers of Islam,” Ahmed reportedly told the panel. “We have 8 million-plus Muslim Americans in this country, and I don’t see them represented here.”

This was unacceptable. Gabriel was the first to attack, according to Milbank, responding that “180 million to 300 million” Muslims are “dedicated to the destruction of Western civilization” and that the “peaceful majority” of the world’s Muslims “were irrelevant” on Sept. 11, 2001. Besides, Muslims are like Nazis, Gabriel argued: “Most Germans were peaceful,” she said, “yet the Nazis drove the agenda, and as a result, 60 million died.”

Gabriel then questioned Ahmed’s citizenship before telling her that “political correctness” of the kind she spouts should be kept “in the garbage” where it belongs. Ahmed was then asked, “Where are the others speaking out?” but before she could explain why demanding a community of hundreds of millions have “others” who “speak out” against murder is ridiculous and disingenuous, the audience drowned her out with a standing ovation.
 
It is apparent that the poster A'isha is lying outright because she/he is apparently knowledgeable .I would respond to this post only once.

Meaning it wasn't part of AKP's platform.

It ( Islamism) was but later abandoned due to threat of ban from Judges for being islamist. Before changing their position they won the election with landslide victory in the 2002 election based on Islamism.

from wikipedia link

The Justice and Development Party (Turkish: Adalet ve Kalkınma Partisi), abbreviated JDP in English and AK PARTİ or AKP in Turkish,† is a centre-right, social conservative political party in Turkey. It has developed from the tradition of Islamism, but has officially abandoned this ideology in favour of "conservative democracy".[5][6]

Notes: officially abandoned because they faced threat of ban:

From wikipedia link

The closure trial of the ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP) of Turkey was a court case in 2008 to close the party and ban its 71 leading members from politics for five years, based on the charge that the party violated the principle of separation of religion and state in Turkey. The closure request failed by one vote, as only 6 of the 11 judges ruled in favour, with 7 required; however, 10 out of 11 judges agreed that the AKP had become "a center for anti-secular activities", leading to a loss of state funding for the party.[2]

Now, stop lying .



Glad you finally admit that.

Lol. The rights of christians and name sake or secular muslims (small percentage of egyptian population) were going to get screwed by sharia . Naturally they demonstrated against sharia.What exactly I am admitting new that I didn't before ?.

This is what I wrote before

rtved said:
How many millions ?. Obviosuly there are millions egyptians whose rights are going to be trampled under "islamic brother hood's " sharia constitution. Naturally they demonstrated .

It seems you are employing classic tactics of subversion and derailment.



As you yourself were forced to admit right below, no, it didn't pass with 95% of those voting approving the constitution.

It is your brilliant posts that forced me to admit my mistake :D.

No, I'm highlighting the ridiculousness of your attempted argument.

Ridiculous that majority of muslims voted for Sharia liking "islamic brotherhood" ? .


It's not the "range", it's the percentage of for vs. against votes.

Right. So, majority of muslims who voted are in favor of SHARIA.







Not even close. There were ten million "yes" votes, or 20% of the eligible voters (and 12% of the whole population). 80% of the eligible voters (or 88% of the whole population) either voted "no", or didn't bother to vote.

Classic diversion. and stupid conclusion.One cannot assume those who didn't vote are against the referendum.If 88% are gaist the referendum they would have voted No unless there are threats. Since islamic brotherhood is at helm of affairs there was no threat for those who want to vote FOR SHARIA.

And, again, those ten million "yes" voters were dwarfed by the protesters.

Lol.



Er...they don't need to. Estimating crowd sizes doesn't require fancy technology

Not when they are counting millions.



Oh, right, that link must have been talking about all those pro-shari'ah liberal, secular and leftist groups that made up the opposition National Salvation Front.

My bad.

Another diversion and outright lying (and time wasting spam tactic to fill the space ).

Here is earlier post by aisha.

[quote-Aisha] at post 720: Because they were so incensed at how the Brotherhood forced through the draft constitution despite the walkout by the secularists and al-Azhar that many of them boycotted the vote in protest. link provided by aisha [/quote]

As I said before the Opposition boycotted citing reasons of Morsi appropriating all power in his hands.
 
It is apparent that the poster A'isha is lying outright because she/he is apparently knowledgeable .

Tsk, sticks and stones.

It ( Islamism) was but later abandoned due to threat of ban from Judges for being islamist. Before changing their position they won the election with landslide victory in the 2002 election based on Islamism.

No, they didn't "later change their position". The party was founded in 2001, and they were threatened with banning before the 2002 election. Their 2002 election manifesto didn't say a single thing about shari'ah, but instead declared that "AKP is a democrat, conservative, reformist and contemporary party" and was all about government corruption, the high unemployment rate, and the economic and political requirements for EU membership.

They're religiously conservative and arose from Islamist parties (they consider themselves the equivalent of Europe's conservative Christian Democrat parties), but their platform was and is not centered on imposing shari'ah law on Turkey.

The closure trial of the ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP) of Turkey was a court case in 2008 to close the party and ban its 71 leading members from politics for five years, based on the charge that the party violated the principle of separation of religion and state in Turkey. The closure request failed by one vote, as only 6 of the 11 judges ruled in favour, with 7 required; however, 10 out of 11 judges agreed that the AKP had become "a center for anti-secular activities", leading to a loss of state funding for the party.[2]

And in the part of the wiki article you cut out without indicating you cut out, the thing that prompted this closure trial was not something like Erdogan wanting to mandate the wearing of headscarves, but to lift the total headscarf ban at universities (making the US actually less secular than Turkey in this regard).


Lol. The rights of christians and name sake or secular muslims (small percentage of egyptian population) were going to get screwed by sharia . Naturally they demonstrated against sharia.What exactly I am admitting new that I didn't before ?.

You keep, for some bizarre reason, asserting that the only people protesting were the Christians. The June protesters came out in huge numbers, and were composed of Egyptians from all walks of live, with the only similarity they had with each other being an opposition to the Muslim Brotherhood and what it had been doing.

Ridiculous that majority of muslims voted for Sharia liking "islamic brotherhood" ? .

Except it was a minority of Muslims that actually voted, and in a country of 90 million people and 50 million eligible voters, only four million more Muslims voted for it than against it.

Classic diversion. and stupid conclusion.One cannot assume those who didn't vote are against the referendum.If 88% are gaist the referendum they would have voted No unless there are threats.

Or, you know, boycotts.

Since islamic brotherhood is at helm of affairs there was no threat for those who want to vote FOR SHARIA.

So why did so few of them vote for it, then?

Not when they are counting millions.

Yes, when they are counting millions.

Another diversion and outright lying (and time wasting spam tactic to fill the space ).

Here is earlier post by aisha.

Aisha at post 720: said:
Because they were so incensed at how the Brotherhood forced through the draft constitution despite the walkout by the secularists and al-Azhar that many of them boycotted the vote in protest. link provided by aisha

As I said before the Opposition boycotted citing reasons of Morsi appropriating all power in his hands.

I think you ought to actually read the article before calling me a liar. The reason for the boycott and the protests described as ongoing in the article wasn't Morsi's decree (the very first sentence of the article mentions that Morsi rescinded that decree). The protests and the boycott were about the upcoming referendum on the draft constitution, because "[t]he [constituent] assembly – then without liberal and Christian representatives who had withdrawn – rushed to finalise the draft and officially hand it to Morsi, who then called for a referendum to take place this Saturday."

The liberal, secular opposition coalition wanted to boycott the referendum because it was to take place almost immediately after Islamists and Salafists in the constituent assembly rushed through a draft constitution after liberal and Christian (and al-Azhar) representatives walked out in protest of the attempts to add pro-shari'ah provisions to the draft.

And that coalition, the protestors against the 2012 referendum, and the massive numbers of anti-Morsi protestors in June 2013 were not simply the "Christian 20%" with all the Muslims supporting Morsi and the Brotherhood.
 
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I'll throw in my two cents:

Firstly I put all religions on the same bar of stupidity, Less I be labeled anything.

I find some of the Islamic whiteknighting in this thread to be...interesting to say the least, Perhaps I'm reading it wrong.
 
I'll throw in my two cents:

Firstly I put all religions on the same bar of stupidity, Less I be labeled anything.

I find some of the Islamic whiteknighting in this thread to be...interesting to say the least, Perhaps I'm reading it wrong.

"Islamic whiteknighting"? Explain.
 
Except it was a minority of Muslims that actually voted, and in a country of 90 million people and 50 million eligible voters, only four million more Muslims voted for it than against it.

Doesn't really put a good light on those that did not vote in such an important case.
 
Doesn't really put a good light on those that did not vote in such an important case.

How so?

I mean, it´s not like Egyptians have a lifetime of experience where their vote actually counted for something.

I´m willing to bet that pretty much anyone who actually wanted sharia and was able to vote ended up doing so.

I´m also willing to bet that the bulk of those who ended up not voting did so either because they were completely unable to vote, because they were afraid of retaliation by Brotherhood supporters if they voted, or because they thought that the government was going to do what hey wanted anyway no matter how they voted, so they didn´t bother.
 
How so?

I mean, it´s not like Egyptians have a lifetime of experience where their vote actually counted for something.

I´m willing to bet that pretty much anyone who actually wanted sharia and was able to vote ended up doing so.

I´m also willing to bet that the bulk of those who ended up not voting did so either because they were completely unable to vote, because they were afraid of retaliation by Brotherhood supporters if they voted, or because they thought that the government was going to do what hey wanted anyway no matter how they voted, so they didn´t bother.

might be, but not voting is not a solution, it just makes it easier for the other side to get what they want.
 
might be, but not voting is not a solution, it just makes it easier for the other side to get what they want.

That´s easy for us, with our lifelong experience in a stable democracy, to say.

If you have the choice between a non-solution that will have no effects (not voting) and a non-solution that might get you in trouble (voting), you´ll pick the former.
 
That´s easy for us, with our lifelong experience in a stable democracy, to say.

If you have the choice between a non-solution that will have no effects (not voting) and a non-solution that might get you in trouble (voting), you´ll pick the former.

Plus a hefty dose of "this vote is ******** and I'm having none of it" mixed in.

The Brotherhood and did the same thing for the 2014 post-coup constitution vote this past January (which had 19,985,389 "yes" votes to 381,341 "no" votes, 98.13% to 1.87%, with 38.6% turnout).
 
"Islamic whiteknighting"? Explain.

It seems to me that a few posters always pop up in any thread expressing valid criticisms to come to the defense of Islam.

Add to that while I agree without naming people some seem to be stuck on a loop of just posting stuff about Islam it does not make their position or argument invalid.

I'll need to find the exact quote but one even defended mohammad's pedophillia by saying it was considered normal then so no foul.
 
It seems to me that a few posters always pop up in any thread expressing valid criticisms to come to the defense of Islam.

Add to that while I agree without naming people some seem to be stuck on a loop of just posting stuff about Islam it does not make their position or argument invalid.

I'll need to find the exact quote but one even defended mohammad's pedophillia by saying it was considered normal then so no foul.

i have not seen many poster posting valid criticisms. most seems to merely parrot the nonsense from islamophbic sources.

an critique about Mohaamed's childwife is very moot, what's the Point? yeah today we see it as pretty pervert, rightly so. but that was different back then.
just like slavery was seen different in Jesus's time. yet you do0t see any Christians critque Jesus for not speakign out agaisnt it. so do we expect Muslims to critique Mohammed? why?
 
It seems to me that a few posters always pop up in any thread expressing valid criticisms to come to the defense of Islam.

Add to that while I agree without naming people some seem to be stuck on a loop of just posting stuff about Islam it does not make their position or argument invalid.

I'll need to find the exact quote but one even defended mohammad's pedophillia by saying it was considered normal then so no foul.

I think the crucial part is those words. My concern, and I do not think I am alone in this, with the islamophobes is that they take the most extreme Islamic movements or statements and claim their behaviour and ideas to be the muslim norm. It is the generalization that is the problem not the critique. If I took the Westboro Baptist Church behaviour and said that it demonstrated what a homofobic religion christanity is. Would that be a valid criticism of christianity?
 
an critique about Mohaamed's childwife is very moot, what's the Point? yeah today we see it as pretty pervert, rightly so. but that was different back then.
just like slavery was seen different in Jesus's time. yet you do0t see any Christians critque Jesus for not speakign out agaisnt it. so do we expect Muslims to critique Mohammed? why?

Mohammed had a direct line to God, yet he married a six-year-old. He's supposed to be the standard that all Muslims aim for.
If it wasn't wrong for him then, then why would it be wrong for a follower of Islam now?

Claiming that someone's morals were suitable for the timeframe is irrelevant when you're discussing an agent of a supposedly timeless god.
 
Mohammed had a direct line to God, yet he married a six-year-old. He's supposed to be the standard that all Muslims aim for.
If it wasn't wrong for him then, then why would it be wrong for a follower of Islam now?

Claiming that someone's morals were suitable for the timeframe is irrelevant when you're discussing an agent of a supposedly timeless god.

I totally agree. but I see those prophets as normal people with huge delusions.
but those that think they are indeed best buddy with a god, or even a god themselves like in the case of Jesus, those people don0t seem to see it that way. yet they do not follow those examples. neither are Christians beating their slaves anymore the way Jesus recommended, nor are most Muslims marrying 6 year old kids and consume the marriage when the kid is 9.
 
I totally agree. but I see those prophets as normal people with huge delusions.
but those that think they are indeed best buddy with a god, or even a god themselves like in the case of Jesus, those people don0t seem to see it that way. yet they do not follow those examples. neither are Christians beating their slaves anymore the way Jesus recommended, nor are most Muslims marrying 6 year old kids and consume the marriage when the kid is 9.

Which just goes to show the hypocrisy of religion.
Followers tend to make apologies for such faults though, rather than accepting them.
"That's just how things were back then", becomes an excuse for those who aren't supposed to need excuses made for them, being perfect and all.
 
Mohammed had a direct line to God, yet he married a six-year-old. He's supposed to be the standard that all Muslims aim for.
If it wasn't wrong for him then, then why would it be wrong for a follower of Islam now?

Claiming that someone's morals were suitable for the timeframe is irrelevant when you're discussing an agent of a supposedly timeless god.

Not every act and deed and word of Muhammad is a sunnah, and therefore not anywhere close to being part of shari'ah.

"Rafi' b. Khadij reported that Allah's Messenger came to Medina and the people had been grafting the trees. He said:

What are you doing? They said: We are grafting them, whereupon he said: It may perhaps be good for you if you do not do that, so they abandoned this practice (and the date-palms) began to yield less fruit. They made a mention of it (to the Holy Prophet), whereupon he said: I am a human being, so when I command you about a thing pertaining to religion, do accept it, and when I command you about a thing out of my personal opinion, keep it in mind that I am a human being." - Sahih Muslim 2362
 
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