[Merged] General Criticism of Islam/Islamophobia Topics

[A'isha]

Sharia was a major part of erdogan's campaign.

Not really, no.

May be I should have made it clear. As per Pew research 64% of Egyptian muslims want death penalty for muslims leaving Islam. It is logical to assume those 64% of muslims didn't want to agitate against sharia.

Besides, I would not depend on The guardian when it comes to statistics.the same goes for foxnews.

No prizes for guessing that doesn't constitute 64% of egyptian muslims who wants death penalty for apostasy.Now, that is what you can call "lot of numbers". Also 20 % of egyptian population is christian who are scared of sharia.

So the 40% of Egyptians who, you say, are the only ones against shari'ah managed to get something like 20 million people out on the streets of multiple Egyptian cities in mass protests against Morsi and the Brotherhood for several days, while the 60% that you totally believe from one poll were all for Morsi's program all just...stayed home during that time, only managing to scrape together a measly 20,000 pro-Morsi protesters in Tahrir Square to counter the 500,000 anti-Morsi protesters in the Square?

Hmm...that sure doesn't say much for the enthusiasm of the pro-shari'ah crowd in Egypt or the depth of the support for it. Oh, right...because there was a poll from several years before all these events took place, the massive anti-Morsi protests and virtually nonexistent pro-Morsi protests can be safely disregarded.

Egyptian military has problems of it's own if sharia is adopted in egypt.They possibly loose overseas aid/funding making their life difficult.The military has it's own reasons.

The military had quite the sweetheart deal from Morsi, which is why they backed him for so long - the Brotherhood constitution rammed through by Morsi's government after the secularists and al-Azhar walked out contained provisions protecting the privileged and independent position of the military. It wasn't until the mass protests of June and July that the military saw which way the winds were blowing and decided to get out in front of the popular anti-Brotherhood sentiment.

Nope.

You started out by demanding that "major Islamic country theologians say that some Important Muslim practices of Muhammad (sunna) are not suitable for modern times", and when I showed you were they had done just that, you changed your demand to them declaring that Muhammad's marriage to 'A'isha was not just unsuitable for modern marriage, but that it was wrong.

 

[A'isha]

There is also peculiar case of leftists in India espousing, while white washing, extreme religious demands of Muslims . Probably they derive inspiration from west. One wise man told me muslims provide foot soldiers to leftist demonstrations and hence the cooperation.I didn't verify that observation but it appers to have some basis.

Ah, of course.

 

[Humes fork]

I do know what secularism is I do not need the internet to tell me I can read books and enforced secularism is just as much a breach of basic human rights as enforced religion.

So the US and other liberal democracies are violating human rights by being (by and large) secular states?

While this thread maybe about Islam specifically I have seen nothing in it that cannot be said be said about any other major religion in the world today.

If the thread was about Christianity, would you say "Well, you can say the same thing about Islam too"? If not, then why not?

 

[Humes fork]

There is also peculiar case of leftists in India espousing, while white washing, extreme religious demands of Muslims . Probably they derive inspiration from west. One wise man told me muslims provide foot soldiers to leftist demonstrations and hence the cooperation.I didn't verify that observation but it appears to have some basis.

The radical left and the Islamists share a hatred for Jews, Western culture, and globalization. The radical left tries to make common cause with the Islamists (they have since the collapse of the Soviet Union been willing to make common cause with any anti-Western group or country). The Islamists probably view the leftists as little else than useful idiots.

Did you know that prominent feminists in Sweden used to argue that honor killings don't really exist, that it was a Western invention to give Muslims a bad name?

Did you know that Sweden's most prominent feminist has argued that there is basically no difference between how women are treated in Sweden and how women were treated in Afghanistan under the Taliban?

The radical left has ceased to offer a positive version of what society should be like. They are simply anti-Western in a nihilistic way.

 

[Chaos]

I'm not going to address retarded slandering insinuations that I want Muslims to wear yellow badges.

This is irrelevant, because you should address WHAT PEOPLE ACTUALLY WROTE.

 

[rtved]

Not really, no.

Well, Erdogan was quoted as saying, "Thank God almighty, I am a servant of Sharia.

So the 40% of Egyptians who, you say, are the only ones against shari'ah managed to get something like 20 million people out on the streets of multiple Egyptian cities in mass protests against Morsi and the Brotherhood for several days, while the 60% that you totally believe from one poll were all for Morsi's program all just...stayed home during that time, only managing to scrape together a measly 20,000 pro-Morsi protesters in Tahrir Square to counter the 500,000 anti-Morsi protesters in the Square?

I would'nt count on journalists ability to count people on demonstrations.As to why pro sharia muslims were not made to demonstrate against the the other demonstrators can be analysed. The pro sharia muslims already gave their verdict by electing Islamic brotherhood.There was no need to for them to demonstrate afresh especially when they supported Sharia constituon in a referendum by voting more than 95% in favor. The same argument can also be made why anti sharia people didn't take part in referndum to vote down the sharia constituion put forward by "islamic brotherhood.

 

[A'isha]

Well, Erdogan was quoted as saying, "Thank God almighty, I am a servant of Sharia.

And that was reflected in the AKP platform how?

I would'nt count on journalists ability to count people on demonstrations.As to why pro sharia muslims were not made to demonstrate against the the other demonstrators can be analysed. The pro sharia muslims already gave their verdict by electing Islamic brotherhood.

"Just ignore those millions of people out there shouting protests against Morsi and the Brotherhood and attacking the Brotherhood headquarters and surrounding the presidential palace. We voted once seven months ago, so we don't have to do anything else now."

Uh huh.

There was no need to for them to demonstrate afresh especially when they supported Sharia constituon in a referendum by voting more than 95% in favor.

That'd be a pretty neat trick since the vote for the 2012 Constitution was actually only 63.83% to 36.17% with a 32.9% turnout. In fact, the protesters against Morsi in June 2013 outnumbered the total number of people who cast ballots in that 2012 vote, and outnumbered the pro-constitution voters by two to one.

The same argument can also be made why anti sharia people didn't take part in referndum to vote down the sharia constituion put forward by "islamic brotherhood.

Because they were so incensed at how the Brotherhood forced through the draft constitution despite the walkout by the secularists and al-Azhar that many of them boycotted the vote in protest.

 

[Dcdrac]

Again false premises one poster the US is certainly not acting oppressively, the model I would point to is the USSR and the enforced secularisation that so spectacularly failed there.

I certainly do not think religion should paly a role in state education or the legislature, forcing it out of all spheres of public life is trampling on human rights.

I am all for the disestablishment of the Church of England for instance, certainly think all state funding of faith schools should be pulled.

One thing I am not in favour of is a false discussion about just one religion, you don't like Islam fine we get the point, but do not run away from the fact it, it is not the only major religion with problems.

 

[A'isha]

The radical left and the Islamists share a hatred for Jews, Western culture, and globalization. The radical left tries to make common cause with the Islamists (they have since the collapse of the Soviet Union been willing to make common cause with any anti-Western group or country).

The "radical left" isn't the entire left, you know. Most of us, in fact, find clowns like Galloway and his ilk to be worth little more than an eyeroll.

Did you know that prominent feminists in Sweden used to argue that honor killings don't really exist, that it was a Western invention to give Muslims a bad name?

Did you know that Sweden's most prominent feminist has argued that there is basically no difference between how women are treated in Sweden and how women were treated in Afghanistan under the Taliban?

Really. Do tell.

 

[Caper]

I honestly can't think of anything else to have a greater phobia about.

 

[tsig]

I have noticed the same general trend.

All I´m waiting for is the suggestion that Muslims be made to wear yellow crescents on their clothing, so everyone can recognize them and be careful around these dangerous people.

I'm not going to address retarded slandering insinuations that I want Muslims to wear yellow badges.

This is irrelevant, because you should address WHAT PEOPLE ACTUALLY WROTE.

Hilited WHAT YOU ACTUALLY WROTE.

 

[trustbutverify]

Again false premises one poster the US is certainly not acting oppressively, the model I would point to is the USSR and the enforced secularisation that so spectacularly failed there.

I certainly do not think religion should paly a role in state education or the legislature, forcing it out of all spheres of public life is trampling on human rights.

I am all for the disestablishment of the Church of England for instance, certainly think all state funding of faith schools should be pulled.

There is a galaxy of difference between a secular state and an anti-religious state. State enforced secularism is not state enforced atheism.

 

[Chaos]

Hilited WHAT YOU ACTUALLY WROTE.

Now if you could hilight where I was writing about Humes Fork... or in fact any poster here?

 

[Belz...]

I do know what secularism is I do not need the internet to tell me I can read books and enforced secularism is just as much a breach of basic human rights as enforced religion.

So the US and other liberal democracies are violating human rights by being (by and large) secular states?

Belz...'s First Law of Non Sequitur applies, here. How does this follow from the post you quoted ?

 

[Frozenwolf150]

So the US and other liberal democracies are violating human rights by being (by and large) secular states?

Actually, the US Constitution states, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Both aspects are an important part of religious freedom in the US. You shouldn't have religion in government, and the government shouldn't interfere with people's right to practice their religion lawfully.

To refer to what someone else said in another thread, banning the veil is just as bad as requiring it. Wear whatever you like, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone.

 

[A'isha]

Here's some more about what current, actual academic scholarship has to say about the assertion that there was a "closing of the Muslim mind" (and the kinds of works which make that assertion which have been cited here a number of times).

This is from Stearns, Justin (2014). “All Beneficial Knowledge is Revealed”:
 The Rational Sciences in the Maghrib in the age of al-Yusi (d. 1102/1691),
 Islamic Law and Society, 21(1-2), 49-80.

Recent scholarship in the field of Middle Eastern and Islamic studies has largely dispelled once prevalent understandings of the Muslim world’s having suffered from a lack of intellectual vitality in the early modern period.⁹² One of the many areas that remains unclear, however, is the relationship between Muslim scholars’ ongoing study of the rational sciences (al-ʿulūm al-ʿaqliyya) and developments in kalām and Sufism. It has been even more difficult to know how to best gloss innovative thinkers such as al-Yūsī within the history of the Middle East more broadly. Here I would argue that the parallels with social and intellectual developments in Europe sought by Samer Akkakh in the context of ʿAbd al-Ghanī al-Nābulusī lessen rather than further our understanding of the scholarly landscape of the Muslim world during this period. Al-Yūsī and many of his Maghrebi contemporaries saw no tension between the study of logic, mathematics, astronomy, alchemy, and philosophy more generally, on the one hand, and the religious sciences, on the other. Al-Yūsī worked simultaneously within the framework of Ashʿarism, the dominant school of theology in the Muslim West, to advance an understanding of God’s action in nature that supports rational inquiry into the natural world. In doing so he, admittedly, did not so much modify previous Ashʿarī understandings of God’s habit as he draws attention to the value of contemplating the wisdom with which God has arranged his ongoing creation of the world. The way in which he expresses this opinion, and the texts upon which he may have drawn, also suggest the extent to which he followed in the footsteps of earlier thinkers such as al-Ghazālī and Aḥmad Zarrūq in blending theology and Sufism. His example – if another one were needed – is a powerful argument against the claim that Islamicate thought stagnated during the early modern period and that it was due to the prevalence of Ashʿarism among Muslim theologians.⁹³ Instead of wondering, with some, why a Scientific Revolution did not occur in the Muslim world, or of trying to measure the intellectual curiosities of one set of scholars by those of another, it will be more productive to focus instead on the ways in which Muslim scholars in the Maghreb and elsewhere defined and described their interest in studying and explaining the natural world.

Footnote 93 there reads:

The tendency to blame Ashʿarism for the decline of rational thought in the Muslim world has often chosen al-Ghazālī, his criticism of philosophy, and his theological views as the beginning of the “closing of the Muslim mind.” See the references given in Stearns, “Writing the History of the Natural Sciences,” 927, 932, and most strikingly and perniciously the argument laid out in Robert Reilly, The Closing of the Muslim Mind: How Intellectual Suicide Created the Modern Islamist Crisis (Wilmington: Intercollegiate Studies Institute, 2010), especially chapters 3 and 4.

 

[Cleon]

So you didn't read the link then.

Sure did. Doesn't change what I posted. The bans on religious garb are most definitely attempts at enforced secularism.

I'm not going to bothering with you again

I'm crushed. I will so miss your wisdom and your willingness to admit error.

until you read the link and stop with those strawmen.

I'm starting to think you either don't know the meaning of the word "strawman" or you're being deliberately misleading by using it. It's hard to tell.

 

[Mister Agenda]

Have your explained that to France and other countries that have tried to restrict or ban the wearing of religious garb in public? Or are we about to be treated to a bizarre twisting of logic about how that's not really "enforced secularism?"

Overreach in either supporting or suppressing religion is a breach of secularism.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Did you know that prominent feminists in Sweden used to argue that honor killings don't really exist, that it was a Western invention to give Muslims a bad name?

Did you know that Sweden's most prominent feminist has argued that there is basically no difference between how women are treated in Sweden and how women were treated in Afghanistan under the Taliban?

You, of course, have quotations in full context to back this up, from who I suppose are F! and Gudrun Schyman.

 

[A'isha]

You, of course, have quotations in full context to back this up, from who I suppose are F! and Gudrun Schyman.

Radical Eurofeminists love Islam, doncha know.