• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

[Merged] General Criticism of Islam/Islamophobia Topics

Status
Not open for further replies.
Extremism is not represented by strict adherence to an ideology, but by zealousness and fanaticism for an ideology. The Hasids follow Jewish religious rules and tradition very strictly, but they're (mostly) merely devout; the Kahanists, on the other hand, are extremists.

An important distinction, given how these two terms are thrown around interchangeably for the most part.

You reject Muslim pacifists as "heterodox" and outside of mainstream Islam, but are so quick to embrace the equally heterodox salafists as representative of that mainstream.

Given that there is no one supreme authority on what orthodox Islam *really* is, and hasn´t been since the death of Mohammed, can *any* variety of Islam really be anything but heterodox?

Which has been my problem with your views of Islam all along, really.

It is the usual result of trying to support an already established world-view, rather than letting it be formed by incoming data.

Well, that's because I don't feel the need to get outraged based on your strawman version of Chaos' position.

Knowing you, insofar as I do based on your posts, I assume you would be the first to be outraged if I *did* express such a position.

Others, I suspect, would be far less outraged, given that the world-view behind such a position would be far more similar to their own than they care to admit.
 
Given that there is no one supreme authority on what orthodox Islam *really* is, and hasn´t been since the death of Mohammed, can *any* variety of Islam really be anything but heterodox?

True.

I was mainly thinking of the first time that the Saudi kings and their Wahhabi allies conquered Mecca and started imposing their brand of Islam on the residents and pilgrims. The Ottoman Caliph ordered the governor of Egypt, Muhammad Ali Pasha, to do something about them, and he in turn promptly had his son Ibrahim Pasha invade and recapture Mecca and the Hejaz, and then proceed to dismantle the rest of the Saudi state and raze their capital (and ancestral village of the Saudi family) of Diryah to the ground. Pasha executed many members of the Wahhabi ulema as heretics, including Muhammad al-Wahhab's grandson, a prominent author of many Wahhabi polemical texts (his father, Muhammad al-Wahhab's son, was sent into exile and died there). Several members of the Saudi royal family, including the king, Abdullah bin Saud, were shipped off to the Ottoman capital Istanbul as prisoners, where they were likewise executed for their heresy and crimes against the Holy Cities.
 
Earlier this year, there was yet another one of the interminable "Sam Harris says Islamophobia doesn't exist" threads that get posted on here on a regular basis (you know, very much like this one) that I ended up rereading today for an unimportant reason. In it, the claim that no comedians make fun Islam was put forward, which I'd forgotten about.

So, I'd like to share with you a site I found a few months ago: Islamica News, basically a Muslim version of The Onion.
I particularly liked
The Great War between good & evil will take place entirely in online comments.
It seems appropriate.:)
 
Aisha said:
Approvingly citing people like Wafa Sultan and Ali Sina? Repeating bizarre nonsense like your claims about slavery in the Islamic world (by the way, if you're really interested in learning the actual story of the African diaspora in the Islamic world, you can start here)? Making ridiculous statements about how "Reason" has been lost from the "Muslim mind" and that any kind of reform in Islam is impossible?


First of all I was referring to your assertion that Dawkins approach is 'bigoted'. I don't think so. And all reasonable people would agree with me. Secondly stop teaching me about those people, you definitely are not even capable to understand some basic philosophy (if you really read what these people say). If Reilly is a crackpot then what are you? And do you really think you explained away the problem of why there is no afro culture in the islamic world? As I told you once revisionism is to rewrite history along postmodernist-guilt of colonialism-multiculturalist ideological lines. Happily the truth cannot be hidden ad infinitum.


Really? And why, precisely, is that? Do you even understand the history and development of fundamentalist evangelical and pentecFinally do you think that ostal Protestantism in the United States?


i definitely waste my time with you. As usual you do not even have the decency to hide your contempt behind some sophisticated argument free of ad hominems and attempts to 'dedunk' and patronize me with all costs. Anyways Encyclopedia Britannica should become your friend, search for example for 'theologcal liberalism' or the article on Protestantism, especially the paragraphs 'Biblical criticism' and 'Conservative and Evangelical forms of Protestantism'. Or read 'Why Evolution works and creationism fails' by Young and Strode, the chapter 'History of Creationism and Evolutionary Science in the United States'. The advent of literalists in USA was in important respects a reaction against the elements of Enlightenment which penetrated Christianity (and here Christian philosophers had an important role for that, making possible the free expression of the deists and even atheists in the 18th and later centuries by the way, in USA included).

Still these literalists do not have strong justification in basic tenets of Christianity for even Jesus rejected literalism of the Jewish Law as definitely did Paul (arguably the main founder of Christianity) and a long string of heretic, proto-orthodox and orthodox Christians along time (that's why stoning for example was never a problem in Christianity, except for some loonies but then even the most pacifist doctrines can be misused). Compare this with the situation in the basics of islam where Tradition is supreme, unaided Human Reason severely downplayed (even in shia islam too much tradition was kept, at least most of the inerrant 'guidance' offered till the 12th imam). The reality is that the status of unaided Human Reason has always been much higher in Christianity and Judaism, a happy feature which definitely made the journey toward Modernity much easier than in islam.


I find futile to engage your other 'arguments', as i said waste of time. Good luck convincing yourself ad infinitum that islam is on the good path today. Meanwhile the rational people understand that at least an approach as that of Tawfiq Hamid (search on the net 'How to end islamophobia') is a necessity for a real breakthrough, for islam to be finally penetrated, deeply and with lasting influence, by the ideas of Enlightenment (not the case today, in spite of your rosy accounts of islam, still no islamic counterpart of liberal Christianity).
 
Last edited:
And all reasonable people would agree with me.

Uh huh.

Secondly stop teaching me about those people,

Someone has to.

If Reilly is a crackpot then what are you?

The person who clearly pointed out the numerous specific factual, historical, and theological errors in Reilly's boneheaded paragraph from his boneheaded that you parroted.

And do you really think you explained away the problem of why there is no afro culture in the islamic world?

The "problem" as you describe it doesn't exist. The site I linked you explains that quite clearly, and even provides a good bibliography so you can further educate yourself on the subject.

Anyways Encyclopedia Britannica should become your friend,

Your response to my telling you to stop citing crackpots like Scott and idiots like Reilly and instead consult the works of real academics and historians is to advise me to read the Encyclopedia Britannica!?

:dl:

Or read 'Why Evolution works and creationism fails' by Young and Strode, the chapter 'History of Creationism and Evolutionary Science in the United States'.

And how, exactly, do you feel that their book contradicts anything I've said?

The advent of literalists in USA was in important respects a reaction against the elements of Enlightenment which penetrated Christianity

In other words, they were a revivalist movement, just like the Salafiyya are. Do you know what the Third Great Awakening, described by Young and Strode in that chapter, was even all about, what the Christian theology described in the Fundamentals was, and how that influenced the Fourth Great Awakening?

Still these literalists do not have strong justification in basic tenets of Christianity for even Jesus rejected literalism of the Jewish Law as definitely did Paul (arguably the main founder of Christianity) and a long string of heretic, proto-orthodox and orthodox Christians along time (that's why stoning for example was never a problem in Christianity, except for some loonies but then even the most pacifist doctrines can be misused). Compare this with the situation in the basics of islam where Tradition is supreme, unaided Human Reason severely downplayed. The reality is that the status of unaided Human Reason has always been much higher in Christianity and Judaism, a happy feature which definitely made the journey toward Modernity much easier than in islam.

And all of that is entirely your own interpretation, and bears no similarity whatsoever to how the literalists in fundamentalist Protestant Christianity view the sources of their religion, nor to the role and history of things like ijtihad in fundamentalist revivalist Islam.

I find futile to engage your other 'arguments', as i said waste of time.

Okay.
 
You reject Muslim pacifists as "heterodox" and outside of mainstream Islam, but are so quick to embrace the equally heterodox salafists as representative of that mainstream.

They definently should not be rejected, but lauded considering the general interpretations holding court in the islamic world. They are, unfortunately still, more of a fringe element but a heading that should be encouraged since... mainstream Islam is generally like taking contemporary Christianity and backing it through time about 500 years at least. And that's a problem, regardless of some peripheral enlightment through (most likely) assimilation to modern/western values.
 
Last edited:
I have some books about how the UK media, mostly the Harmsworth Press, in the early 20 th Century portrayed Judaism and the adherents of Judaism, generally in fully negative terminology, extremists, dirty, all the same, all have the same values and outlooks, threatening to destroy western culture. What I have seen in the early 21st century is the same language and style this time directed at Islam and Muslims, while dressed up as reasonable discourse.
 
I have some books about how the UK media, mostly the Harmsworth Press, in the early 20 th Century portrayed Judaism and the adherents of Judaism, generally in fully negative terminology, extremists, dirty, all the same, all have the same values and outlooks, threatening to destroy western culture. What I have seen in the early 21st century is the same language and style this time directed at Islam and Muslims, while dressed up as reasonable discourse.

I have noticed the same general trend.

All I´m waiting for is the suggestion that Muslims be made to wear yellow crescents on their clothing, so everyone can recognize them and be careful around these dangerous people.
 
Incidentally, the article in al-Qaeda's Inspire magazine that was quoted in this post turns out to actually have been the angry reaction of Anwar al-Awlaki (the American-born jihadi cleric - born in the same town I grew up in, weirdly enough - infamously killed by a US drone strike in Yemen) to the fatwa issued by the scholars who attended the 2010 Mardin Conference in Turkey.

The purpose of the conference was to examine the "Mardin fatwa" issued by Ibn Taymiyyah, which contained the most famous division of the world into "Dar al-Islam" and "Dar al-Kufr/Dar al-Harb", and whose apparent instruction for Muslims to fight all non-Muslims living outside of "Dar al-Islam" formed a core part of the modern jihadi justification for their actions (Osama bin Laden cited it often).

The reason al-Awlaki was so unhappy is because the conference concluded that the practice of takfir was invalid, the division of the world into the "abode of Islam" and "the abode of war" may have mattered to Ibn Taymiyyah because of the Mongol wars going on at the time but are inapplicable now, that there is no justification whatsoever for random individuals to declare jihad on anyone, and that "[a]nyone who seeks support from [Ibn Taymiyyah's] fatwa for killing Muslims or non-Muslims has erred in his interpretation and has misapplied the revealed texts." Oh, and that Ibn Taymiyyah's fatwa apparently doesn't even say what they think it says.

I was entirely unsurprised to see that the comments on the post about the Mardin Conference at Robert Spencer's "Jihadwatch" blog were almost indistinguishable from the angry reaction and arguments against the Conference fatwa made by jihadists and their supporters.
 
They definently should not be rejected, but lauded considering the general interpretations holding court in the islamic world. They are, unfortunately still, more of a fringe element but a heading that should be encouraged since... mainstream Islam is generally like taking contemporary Christianity and backing it through time about 500 years at least. And that's a problem, regardless of some peripheral enlightment through (most likely) assimilation to modern/western values.

At least you appreciate that these movements exist and matter and should be encouraged, even if their influence is still limited.
 
Hmm, this is interesting, especially in light of certain assertions regarding "reason" in Islam.

One of the scholars who attended the Mardin Conference was Mustafa Cerić, at the time the Grand Mufti of Bosnia. Cerić is a Maturidi of the Hanafi madh'hab. Maturidism is one of the two schools of systematic theology, or kalam, currently accepted in Sunni Islam, along with Ash'arism, and essentially forms a "middle ground" between the positions of the Ash'arites and those of the Mu'tazilites. Maturidis follow Abu Mansur al-Maturidi's philosophy of kalam:

In his Kitab al‑Tauhid, al‑Maturidi gave an elaborate exposition of his system and sought to harmonize the extreme views of both the traditionists and the rationalists. The book bears testimony to his broad outlook, deep insight, and intimate acquaintance with the philosophical systems of his time. The evidence at our disposal at present shows that al‑Maturidi was the first Mutakalim to introduce the doctrine of the sources of human knowledge in a book on theology such as Kitab al‑Tauhid and thereby made a thorough attempt to build up his system on a sound philosophical basis. This method was followed by other theologians and the subject was later on elaborately treated by the Ash'arite scholars, al‑Baqillani (d. 403/1013), and al‑Baghdadi (d. 429/1037).

[...]

Reason, according to al‑Maturidi, is the most important of all other sources of knowledge, because without its assistance sense and report can give no real knowledge. Knowledge of metaphysical realities and moral principles is derived through this source. It is reason which distinguishes men from animals. Al‑Maturidi has pointed out many cases where nothing but reason can reveal the truth. This is why the Qur'an repeatedly enjoins man to think, to ponder, and to judge by reason in order to find out the truth. Refuting the ideas of those who think that reason cannot give true knowledge, he says that they cannot prove their doctrine without employing reason.

EDIT: Needless to say, neither al-Maturidi nor his school of thought and its modern followers are mentioned in Reilly's book.
 
Last edited:
All I´m waiting for is the suggestion that Muslims be made to wear yellow crescents on their clothing, so everyone can recognize them and be careful around these dangerous people.

Interestingly, Hitler's idea of this thing came from the early Caliphate...

Of course I would never suggest such a thing, even though I'm sure you'd hope I'd do that.

This is what I hope for in the Muslim world:
 
Interestingly, Hitler's idea of this thing came from the early Caliphate...

No, he didn't. He took it from the thousand-year-old European Christian tradition of making Jews (and Muslims) wear badges.

Drawing a direct inspirational line from the "early Caliphate" to Hitler regarding the Nazi treatment of Jews is ********.
 
Of course I would never suggest such a thing, even though I'm sure you'd hope I'd do that.

You are sure of an awful lot of things that, to the rest of humanity, are utter and unmitigated bullflop.
 
Some more on the issue of "Islam and reason", and the works that had been cited in this thread which purport to claim that there was a "closing of the Muslim mind".

From Justin Stearns' paper The Legal Status Of Science In The Muslim World In The Early Modern Period: An Initial Consideration Of Fatwās From Three Maghribī Sources, published in The Islamic Scholarly Tradition: Studies in History, Law, and Thought in Honor of Professor Michael Allan Cook (Brill, 2011).

Unfortunately for Huff [addressing Toby Huff's The Rise of Early Modern Science: Islam, China, and the West], his characterization of the major institution of the Islamic world that he considers—the madrasa and Islamic law in general—is deeply flawed. Saliba has already questioned the accuracy of Huff’s observation that the natural sciences were not taught in madrasas is accurate.12 Even more pertinent is the fact that Huff’s portrayal of the nature of Islamic law and its practice in the post-formative period is dated, based as it is on the now-discredited notion that independent legal reasoning ceased in roughly the eleventh century.13 Huff uses the notion that Islamic legal scholars ceased to question the authority of the past at that time to argue, both implicitly and explicitly, that medieval and early modern European scholars were distinguished from their Muslim counterparts by their ability and inclination to view reason and rational inquiry as both desirable and necessary.14 In the following discussion, I argue that such a claim is misleading and ignores a nuanced acceptance of rational inquiry on the part of Muslim scholars in the early modern period.

I have already referred to the ambition of Huff’s book, and it is understandable that any single scholar attempting to offer a synthesis of the literature on science in medieval and early modern Europe, China and Islamdom, may occasionally miss works of importance. However, the sea-change which has taken place during the last three decades of scholarship on Islamic law in the post-formative period (roughly the eleventh to eighteenth centuries) has been profound. If Huff had had the opportunity to familiarize himself with any of the work of Wael Hallaq, Bernard Weiss, Baber Johansen, Sherman Jackson, David Powers, Mohammad Fadel, or Haim Gerber, to name only a few prominent scholars in this field, he would have had to reconsider many of his basic preconceptions regarding Islamic law in the early modern period: that it was conservative and static while simultaneously ignoring legal precedent, that it opposed philosophy, and that its practitioners failed to inquire after higher principles with which they could theorize their study of law.15
[...]

In the following discussion, I will examine the place that natural science (chiefly astronomy and medicine) occupied in three of the most important collections of legal opinions (fatwā, pl. fatāwā) in the Muslim West during the late medieval and early modern periods: the collections of al-Burzulī (d. 841/1438), al-Wansharīsī (d. 914/1508), and al-Wazzānī (d. 1342/1923). Instead of representing editions of the author’s own fatāwā, these collections contain selections from the legal decisions of hundreds of jurists over a substantial period of time. In this way, they offer valuable windows into the nature and variety of legal practice in the Muslim West in the post-formative and early modern periods.17 The following discussion below should be seen as an initial attempt at answering the question of how the natural sciences were perceived in Islamic legal circles in the early modern period.

[...]

As mentioned in the introduction, the scholarship of the past few decades has demonstrated that Islamic law remained dynamic and flexible after the formation of law schools in the fith/eleventh century. This flexibility is well illustrated in the fatwās examined here, with individual jurists drawing creatively on both legal and scientific precedents in order to craft authoritative opinions that reflect both the jurists’ interpretation of the intention of the scriptural sources, and the exigencies of the Muslim community. Yet, while the old stereotypes of Islamic law’s static or arbitrary nature can now be safely discarded, all too often scholars continue to treat developments in legal discourses in isolation, not considering possible relationships of mutual influence with developments in, for example, kalām or Sufism.

If anyone is curious, I'd be happy to go into more detail about Stearns' arguments regarding the fatawa he references in his paper, as well as his use of those fatawa to support his arguments. I just didn't want to quote too much, since my main focus was on highlighting the problematic nature of some of the sources cited in this thread to support the claims about the "closing of the Muslim mind", as well as the problems with that thesis in general, as viewed from the perspective of actual scholarship on the issue.
 
Last edited:
Interestingly, Hitler's idea of this thing came from the early Caliphate...
This simply isn't true.

I have some books about how the UK media, mostly the Harmsworth Press, in the early 20 th Century portrayed Judaism and the adherents of Judaism, generally in fully negative terminology, extremists, dirty, all the same, all have the same values and outlooks, threatening to destroy western culture. What I have seen in the early 21st century is the same language and style this time directed at Islam and Muslims, while dressed up as reasonable discourse.
That's a fascinating, and very apt, comparison. I've been doing some research on early C20 London and the (heavily Jewish) socialists and refugees for a time travel RPG scenario1 and the parallels are quite striking.




1 If anyone's interested......
It's London, 1907. The seventeenth of May to be exact. Yesterday the Brotherhood Church on Southgate Road in Stepney was demolished by a huge explosion, initially thought to be a gas leak.
However speculation is rife that it was a bombing of some sort and there's a police investigation in progress. The Russian embassy has already issued a denial that the Tsarist secret police, the feared Okhrana, was behind the occurrence.

Why the Russians? The church housed the Fifth Congress of the Russian Social Democratic Labour Party, and was packed with over three hundred delegates as well as onlookers. Most of them are now dead, killed in the blast, the collapse of the building and the fire. Amongst the dead are Vladimir Ulyanov, Iosif Dzhugashvili, Lev Davidovich Bronshtein,
Ariadna Tyrkova, Alexander Bogdanov, Grigory Zinoviev, Hermann Danishevsky, Mikhail Pokrovsky, Viktor Nogin, Lev Kamenev, Rosa Luxemburg and Maxim Gorky are amongst the dead, and a host of other leaders who never became household names.

The leadership of the future Soviet Union is gone, the men (and a few women) who led the second 1917 revolution and brought down the Kerensky government are mostly dead.

With Luxemburg dead will the German Social Democrats support the Great War and vote funds for it? Will the war start on schedule in 1914? What effects will the blast have in Britain? At least some of the radicals with blame the government for it, will this change the events of 1911 and turn the Siege of Sidney Street into a true "Battle of Stepney"?
And a lot of people are going to blame the Russians;
memories of Bloody Sunday suppression are fresh and it's not three years since Russian warships shelled British fishing boats in the Dogger Bank incident, might the future Anglo-Russian Entente (supposed to be signed at the end of August 1907) be at risk? And with it the Triple Entente?

This is a pretty blatant change to history, but a somewhat subtle one; most of the effects won't be seen for several years. Is there someone waiting to guide history onto a completely new track?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom