Endless Punishment, Fundie style

[bruto]

Not wanting to do good is not the same as enjoying yourself, bruto.

Cpl Ferro

Perhaps not, but if as you say a person in hell can only desire to do evil, then whether or not he can enjoy himself, hell is the least undesirable venue. Of course there are people ( I've known a few) who can't really enjoy anything, but at least in Hell they'll have something to gripe about.

 

[Giordano]

You said things that lead directly to that idea. If you said the car was white, then it is safe to for me to say that according to you, the car was not blue.

Anyway, I clearly questioned you as to your meaning (see the question mark?), and I did not get a clear answer.

 

[Giordano]

I have mixed feelings about the desirability of Heaven, Giordano.

Cpl Ferro

Really? It appears to me that you have spent much of your life trying to get into heaven. You have repeatedly discussed here how heaven is an ideal that is the pinnacle of our hopes. Now you aren't so sure. Really? Are you considering Hell as where you desire to go?

 

[Giordano]

But, all of this depends on you throwing away your "I don't know if things need reasons" card, which can trump anything anyone says that you aren't comfortable with.

Cpl Ferro

Do you really think this? (see the question mark, by the way). If someone doesn't know if things need reasons, does that trumps anything that anyone might say?

What if I say my tossed coin ended heads up? If someone says I don't know if there is any reason for that, does that make my statement incorrect or inaccurate?

 

[Frozenwolf150]

Are you the same person who believes that certain things in the Universe, including the Universe itself (i.e. everything), “just happen” for no reason? And you call yourself a rationalist?

Reasons, causes, and antecedents other than God are NOT the same as "no reason." You seem uncomfortable with the thought that things would still happen even without your imaginary God pulling the strings.

As to the death of religion, I think hatred of parents, including especially of the father, has a lot to do with it.

From where did you pull this ridiculous conclusion? Are you now claiming to know the mind and motivations of every atheist? Or is this just a preemptive justification to ignore anything I or any other nonbeliever might have to say about the subject?

Actually, given your track record of condemning all atheists as debased, I'm not surprised.

 

[Pixel42]

I actually think Cpl Ferro may be on to something here, except I think it works the other way round: people who have a particularly good relationship with their father are predisposed to cling to an irrational belief in a "father in heaven".

Part of the process of acheiving emotional maturity is realising that your parents are not the all powerful beings they seem to be to a small child but are just ordinary human beings, and learning how to stop relying on their support and stand on your own two feet. This process is obviously going to be easier for someone who was never overly reliant in the first place. For someone who has had a great deal of emotional support from their parents the temptation to simply replace it with the imagined support of a genuinely all powerful being must be that much greater. In other words I think belief in God can sometimes be due to a kind of arrested development, a failure to achieve full emotional maturity.

 

[pakeha]

Oh, dear god- Lee Strobel as the attorney for the defense of "Christianity's evidential foundation." This is well and truly jumping the shark- I don't think I have ever read anything so superficial as The Case For Christ. No surprise that CplFerro recommends it, though.

Dunno, turingtest.
I reckon it's an odd choice, given CplFerro's posting style.

 

[Donn]

I don't know why you think I'm being any more sincere or any less insulting with this greeting than with the other. If you think I'm being insincere and insulting, you should simply stop communicating with me. Perhaps I was stupid and lacking in integrity in changing my greeting for you.

Only you can know that. For my part, I asked you to change it and that's all that counts.



As to the rest of your nonply: Thanks for conceding the argument and leaving the field.

 

[CplFerro]

Really? It appears to me that you have spent much of your life trying to get into heaven. You have repeatedly discussed here how heaven is an ideal that is the pinnacle of our hopes. Now you aren't so sure. Really? Are you considering Hell as where you desire to go?

Dear Giordano,

Indeed, Heaven is as you say. But, the present world also has things to enjoy, and I am reluctant to enjoy the blessings of Heaven before I have enjoyed fully the blessings of the world as it is. Perhaps this is a heretical notion, but it is with me. No, I don't wish to expand on this, and no, I am not thinking Hell is preferable to Heaven.

Do you really think this? (see the question mark, by the way). If someone doesn't know if things need reasons, does that trumps anything that anyone might say?

What if I say my tossed coin ended heads up? If someone says I don't know if there is any reason for that, does that make my statement incorrect or inaccurate?

Yes, I do. If the entire Universe can exist "for no reason" then all bets about anything are off. People who say "it might be that some things happen or exist for no reason" are just hiding the card up their sleeve. Really, I am mildly saddened that this forum, of all forums, would have representatives like whoever it was, who claimed that the Universe "just exists" without any explanation. That's really, wow, that's just depressing to hear human beings say that kind of thing. But, I suppose they say it "for no reason" seeing as they are part of the Universal non-reason.

Cpl Ferro

 

[CplFerro]

Only you can know that. For my part, I asked you to change it and that's all that counts.



As to the rest of your nonply: Thanks for conceding the argument and leaving the field.

Enjoy your trump, Donn.

Cpl Ferro

 

[CplFerro]

Reasons, causes, and antecedents other than God are NOT the same as "no reason." You seem uncomfortable with the thought that things would still happen even without your imaginary God pulling the strings.


From where did you pull this ridiculous conclusion? Are you now claiming to know the mind and motivations of every atheist? Or is this just a preemptive justification to ignore anything I or any other nonbeliever might have to say about the subject?

Actually, given your track record of condemning all atheists as debased, I'm not surprised.

It's just a conjecture, Frozenwolf.

Do you accept the Principle of Sufficient Reason, or don't you?

Cpl Ferro

 

[CplFerro]

Yes you did. All you are doing is appealing to plausible deniability now.

Expand on that. You claim that it is the pinnacle of humanity yet simultaneously claim you do not like it much.

Bluntly, it is patronising superiority complex. It somehow pleases you to do that. Personally, I prefer to take the default position that anyone else's position is as valid as mine. You appear to take a condescending position that everyone is inferior to you. Please stop.

Do you accept the Principle of Sufficient Reason, abaddon?

Cpl Ferro

 

[CplFerro]

Well that just sounds depressing. I will not become mindless a slave to a being that does not even show itself, and whose wisdom includes damning to hell those who don't believe.



Free will comes from consciousness, which is a property of the mind, which is a property of the brain, which is entirely material.

God is a god of truth, justice, and mercy, ehcks, and it is hardly true, just, or merciful to condemn people for something they had no control over. You may recall when we were debating the possibility of infants being damned, I had to concede that there must still remain some element of freely willed rejection of God for such a judgement to be just.
If we consider the Old Testament, none of those people believed in Jesus, but we have no grounds to consider them damned, unless we are some stripe of radical Protestant (I met one on YouTube once, who thought Abraham, Moses and the rest were damned). So, it's against the character of God as He has revealed it, to suppose that damnation is as flippantly obtained as you opine.

I would say to your other point that the mind is associated with the brain, which exists as an image in the mind, as part of the rational ordering of Nature by God.

Cpl Ferro

 

[Slowvehicle]

It's just a conjecture, Frozenwolf.

Do you accept the Principle of Sufficient Reason, or don't you?

Cpl Ferro

Esteemed Ferro, focus of our hearts' desires:

Do you apply the Principle of Sufficient Reason to your 'god', itself?

 

[Slowvehicle]

God is a god of truth, justice, and mercy, ehcks, and it is hardly true, just, or merciful to condemn people for something they had no control over.

You may recall when we were debating the possibility of infants being damned, I had to concede that there must still remain some element of freely willed rejection of God for such a judgement to be just.
If we consider the Old Testament, none of those people believed in Jesus, but we have no grounds to consider them damned, unless we are some stripe of radical Protestant (I met one on YouTube once, who thought Abraham, Moses and the rest were damned). So, it's against the character of God as He has revealed it, to suppose that damnation is as flippantly obtained as you opine.

I would say to your other point that the mind is associated with the brain, which exists as an image in the mind, as part of the rational ordering of Nature by God.

Cpl Ferro

A'god' of "truth, justice, and mercy"which it pleases to torture for all eternity any human who dies not let it "save " them from what it will do to them if they do not let it "save" them.

A 'god' of "love' which "loves" human enough to torture them for all eternity if they do not "love" it back just right...

Petulant, vengeful vindictiveness; but of course, it's condign petulant, vengeful vindictiveness.

 

[abaddon]

Do you accept the Principle of Sufficient Reason, abaddon?

Cpl Ferro

What caused your god?

 

[abaddon]

Dear Giordano,

Indeed, Heaven is as you say.

Unevidenced claim. How can you know this?

But, the present world also has things to enjoy, and I am reluctant to enjoy the blessings of Heaven before I have enjoyed fully the blessings of the world as it is. Perhaps this is a heretical notion, but it is with me. No, I don't wish to expand on this, and no, I am not thinking Hell is preferable to Heaven.

Now, you are claiming that this world is nicer than heaven, that you prefer to be in this world rather than heaven, that hell is indistinguishable from heaven and, furthermore, you will not discuss it?

Yes, I do. If the entire Universe can exist "for no reason" then all bets about anything are off.

If god can exist for no reason then all bets are off. Same thing.

People who say "it might be that some things happen or exist for no reason" are just hiding the card up their sleeve.

That's nice. Except nobody said it. Strawman argument.

Really, I am mildly saddened that this forum, of all forums, would have representatives like whoever it was, who claimed that the Universe "just exists" without any explanation.

Stack that straw. Stack it high.

That's really, wow, that's just depressing to hear human beings say that kind of thing. But, I suppose they say it "for no reason" seeing as they are part of the Universal non-reason.

Cpl Ferro

It is more depressing to see people give up, throw their hands in the air and claim goddunnit because hey, sky fairies are so much more plausible.

 

[abaddon]

God is a god of truth, justice, and mercy, ehcks, and it is hardly true, just, or merciful to condemn people for something they had no control over.

So why does your god do exactly that?

You may recall when we were debating the possibility of infants being damned, I had to concede that there must still remain some element of freely willed rejection of God for such a judgement to be just.

You conceded that because you painted yourself into a corner and had no choice.

If we consider the Old Testament, none of those people believed in Jesus, but we have no grounds to consider them damned, unless we are some stripe of radical Protestant (I met one on YouTube once, who thought Abraham, Moses and the rest were damned).

Should victims of rape be forced to marry their rapists? Your god says yes. Your god commands it.

So, it's against the character of God as He has revealed it, to suppose that damnation is as flippantly obtained as you opine.

Nope. It is precisely in character. Your god really is that much of a bastage.

I would say to your other point that the mind is associated with the brain, which exists as an image in the mind, as part of the rational ordering of Nature by God.

Cpl Ferro

You can say whatever you like. Doesn't make it true.

 

[Donn]

Enjoy your trump, Donn.

Clearly, you don't believe this. I can only conclude that you are in denial.

 

[CplFerro]

Dear abaddon,

People who say "it might be that some things happen or exist for no reason" are just hiding the card up their sleeve.
That's nice. Except nobody said it. Strawman argument.

Why must everything have a why?

Also, many things just exist and just happen, even if we don't fully understand them or haven't figured them out yet.

The question of what came "before" [note “before” in quotation marks] the Universe, of where did the Universe come from, is, at least in part, asking why is there anything rather than nothing.

Except that there was no before. [note the dodge]

If you all don't mean that “some things can exist for no reason” you all are certainly not at pains to clarify what you all do mean.

One more chance, which I give you in spite of your general tone of irritable bad faith, or we're done. In fact, this is going to be my paywall for all future discussions, that unless people accept this, we have nothing to discuss:

Do you think things can happen or exist “for no reason,” “for no explanation,” thus violating the Principle of Sufficient Reason, or, do you think all things require a reason or an explanation for how they got there and why they are what they are?

Cpl Ferro