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Endless Punishment, Fundie style

Dear tsig,

I agree, and, that's a good question! I'm happy you asked it. Let me take a stab at it.

If we view it in terms of Hegel, as expounded by W.T. Stace, we have the difference between the real, but non-existent, on the one hand, and the existent, but non-real, on the other. Stace talks about how the universals, such as whiteness, length, sharpness, and so on, are called “real,” but, don't exist, because there is nowhere in the Universe we can point to as being whiteness itself, length itself, sharpness itself, and so on. These universals are real, but, they do not exist in time and space. That which does exist in time and space, we say “exists.” So, salt exists, and is white and salty, but, that which exists is not strictly real, in the terms given, whereas whiteness and saltiness are real but don't exist.

Now, he took a hundred pages to talk about the above, and I'm squeezing it into a paragraph, but, overall it's not a terribly difficult concept to grasp. He goes on to talk about how the real is associated with Being—eternal entities, outside of time and space--and the existent is associated with Becoming--that which changes in time and space. If I were to seek an explanation for where God came from, I would look to this schema and ask if God were not an entity that is, according to traditional descriptions of Him, more real than existent, more Being than Becoming. (Excluding all questions of the Incarnation.)

Well, you will say, where do real things come from? Where does Being come from? Here there is the possibility of being evasive. I could say, “ 'Come from' implies time, and Being is outside of time, so the question doesn't apply,” but, that doesn't address the meaning of the question “Why?”. Why should there be Being at all?

If Being didn't exist, there would be (according to my reasoning) no source for the Becoming, which reason tells us cannot have existed forever. So, without Being, there can be no Becoming.

But, that isn't satisfying either, because we can still ask why should there be Being and not nothing?

Here, Stace (who never raises the topic of God, mind you) offers a solution, namely that from our experience we can understand that Being and Nothingness are essentially the same. That is, take something, like a salt-pot, and describe it: glassy, metallic, perforated, rigid, octagonal lower cross-section, contains salt, etc., and also “exists”. The salt-pot exists. Now, take away those qualities one by one, until only the “existence” quality remains. What are we left with? Apparently, nothing. Being and Nothing are equivalents. Stace goes on to describe this fact's relevance to Hegel's triadic system of Logic, but, we don't need to venture there. Suffice to say that Being and Nothingness are conceptually equivalent, in this manner of thinking.

If so, we have a problem that needs rephrasing, because Being and Nothing being equivalent crashes the related question, “Why is there anything rather than nothing?” “Anything” and “nothing” are, in this schema, the same, and so there's no conceivable alternative to them. Why should Being be, presupposes the alternative of Nothing, but, if Being and Nothing are equivalent, there can be no question of why, for there is no alternative to the alternative (i.e. Nothing).

So, God is real, but, doesn't exist, and God is real because there is no alternative to His reality, because both Being and Nothingness are equivalent, here. God is a necessary entity, in other words.

Why is God a necessary entity? For the reasons just given. There's no getting away from Him.

That is my best understanding of the situation, at present.

Cpl Ferro

As for this word salad, please see Giordano's response in #255. They are my feelings exactly.

I guess succinctness, brevity and comprehensibility are just more examples of how far we "moderns" have fallen.
 
I already answered your question, crhkrebs, by rhetorically asking what you meant by "where". It's like asking how long greenness is. For more consideration on this, see my post on W.T. Stace, #251.

That eternity and the concept of a necessary substance could be such stumbling blocks to moderns indicates how far we have fallen.

Cpl Ferro

Oh, Ferro, thou thing most precious:

"Eternity" is not a "stumbling block" to "moderns". It is, however, unusual for an educated "modern" to make the claim that the universe, is, in fact, "eternal". You made that claim, and tried to pass it off; why are your own words such a stumbling block to you? I ask again,please support (with something other than specially-pled assertion) your idea that the universe is "eternal". (For instance, what happens to an "eternal" universe at its entropic heat death? "Eternal" stasis? You have not thought this through.)

Your unsupported assertion of a "necessary substance" (with its concomitant special pleading that only your 'god' is such a thing) is not so much a "stumbling block" to "moderns" as an inherently fallacious approach. "Moderns" do not take to the claim of avoiding infinite regress through recourse to circular argument and special pleading. This has been pointed out to you--you have, unsurprisingly, ignored it.

Once again,there is no "where" whence (not "from whence") came the universe. The universe is; there is no other where.

Feel free to refute this with evidence: practical,physical, empirical, demonstrable, objective, "Congruent, Fruitful, and Luminous" evidence.
 
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Frogpiler? Unfamiliar with the term, sorry.

It may be Ferro's idiosyncratic term for what "moderns" would call a "dogpiler".

Dear Mike,

For refusing to participate in frogpiles? Harrumph to that.
<snip>

Cpl Ferro

Our Ferro appears be feeling a bit put out, or picked on, and is accusing posters of unnecessarily "piling on".
 
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I already answered your question, crhkrebs, by rhetorically asking what you meant by "where". It's like asking how long greenness is. For more consideration on this, see my post on W.T. Stace, #251.

That eternity and the concept of a necessary substance could be such stumbling blocks to moderns indicates how far we have fallen.

Cpl Ferro

A necessary substance is one that needs to exist?
 
I would imagine the way the ancients argued was always more satisfying to a theist; all these modern notions like evidence just put the boot in.
 
I already answered your question, crhkrebs, by rhetorically asking what you meant by "where". It's like asking how long greenness is. For more consideration on this, see my post on W.T. Stace, #251.

That eternity and the concept of a necessary substance could be such stumbling blocks to moderns indicates how far we have fallen.

Cpl Ferro

Interesting. I already posted that it is fine by me for you to believe whatever you wish. It would help if you realized that your "proof" was circular, special pleading, and only used a lot of words to obscure that you had no evidence in the physical world. But it was no skin off my teeth. Believe it if you wish, and I suspect that trying to get you to change your mind would be an effort I do not care to indulge in.

But these insults to the rest of us here bother me, and the apparent lack of understanding that we are at least allowed the same "logic" as you when rebutting your posts. Indeed, the modern have fallen! Why we used to understand that fire is an element, now we think it to be only a chemical reaction that releases luminescent gases. Yes, we used to understand the idea of a necessary substance, and now we want to be shown that this substance exists at all. What a pitiful remnant we are of the ancient greats. You use the term "atemporal infinity" but think that a question of "where" is meaningless. Again, fine if your answers satisfy you, but realize that there are whole interpretations out there have led to advances in medicine and technology that have not found your answers and world-view particularly useful.
 
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Don't be a frogpiler, crhkrebs. Amid the hostility to my religion coming from multiple fronts I may have missed a question or two, or thought they were rhetorical. If you think you can answer the question I give above, let us know.

Cpl Ferro

I am sorry that you sense a hostility to your religion; I have sensed here primarily a hostility to your "logic" not to your religion. No one can argue what you believe: that is your choice. But they can argue when you claim that your belief is the only logical belief and you present "logical" arguments in its favor. Then expect any flaws in your arguments to be highlighted.
 
It may be Ferro's idiosyncratic term for what "moderns" would call a "dogpiler".



Our Ferro appears be feeling a bit put out, or picked on, and is accusing posters of unnecessarily "piling on".
I see the term "frogpile" used here from time to time, when many people jump on a poster they feel has stated something that is wrong. I suppose it has some validity when people just get on the bandwagon for the sake of solidarity, but there seems to be an implication here that the most egregious silliness should, out of courtesy, be addressed by a delegation rather than by the majority who find it silly.

A frogpile is more deleterious to the frogs who miss the tasty morsel than to the morsel, which is, whoever gets it, just as tasty.
 
I see the term "frogpile" used here from time to time, when many people jump on a poster they feel has stated something that is wrong. I suppose it has some validity when people just get on the bandwagon for the sake of solidarity, but there seems to be an implication here that the most egregious silliness should, out of courtesy, be addressed by a delegation rather than by the majority who find it silly.

A frogpile is more deleterious to the frogs who miss the tasty morsel than to the morsel, which is, whoever gets it, just as tasty.

I find that the term is used to imply that the motivation for the multiple contrary responses is "hive-mind" behaviour; as if the opposition were simply singing the "party anthem". It seems odd, to me, with its implication that someone repeating kalan-style circular "logic" from the 13th century is the innovator, or the proclaimer of TruthTM. To say nothing of the implication that all of the different objections are merely "groupthink".

Oh, well--I'm on "ignore", anyway.

Keep up the good work...
 

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