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Oscar Pistorius shoots girlfriend

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Could this trial get any weirder? Oh, wait... seems Oscar's aunt Micki, a South African criminal profiler and psychic, won't be testifying:


A noted eccentric during her time as a lecturer at the University of Pretoria, she would encircle herself on the library floor with Freud and Jung books because "circles have magic powers" that helped her to absorb knowledge.

In her memoir Catch Me A Killer Dr Pistorius claims to have extra-sensory perception, being able to pick up vibes without using the five normal senses. She calls this gift "cryptesthesia" a term she prefers to "psychic, which to me conjures up the image of a gypsy with a crystal ball or a cup of tea leaves."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...r-pistorius-case-she-is-his-aunt-8508750.html
 
Either of these outcomes is bad for Pistorius. If it's the latter, then the trial resumes and Pistorius cannot argue (either in this trial or in any possible appeal) that his mental health played a mitigating factor. If it's the former, then this - if anything - is even more of a disaster for Pistorius. It would make it virtually inevitable that the court would find for manslaughter under diminished responsibility, and would commit Pistorius (possibly indefinitely) to a secure psychiatric unit where he would be held and treated until the doctors deemed that he no longer posed a threat.

The way it was explained (by a South African advocate whose name I didn't catch) was that the period where Pistorius was not responsible for his actions was fleeting, there would be no reason to detain him because the combination of circumstances was a once-only deal - I was however listening with only half an ear so I may have this wrong.
 
The way it was explained (by a South African advocate whose name I didn't catch) was that the period where Pistorius was not responsible for his actions was fleeting, there would be no reason to detain him because the combination of circumstances was a once-only deal - I was however listening with only half an ear so I may have this wrong.

Oh my, what happened to your ear? You're not a famous boxer IRL, are you? :D

IMO, there was too much time for it to be considered "fleeting." At some point it became a tad more calculated than fleeting. If he really thought someone was going to come out of the toilet room shooting, he could have positioned himself so he was protected, but still able to shoot. If his story is true, all he had to do was buy some time until help arrived, since supposedly Reeva was calling the police.
 
There seems to be an emerging concensus that Reeva was never heard to scream. Is this now accepted by everyone?
 
All the prosecution witnesses testified to a woman amd a man screaming. The defense witnesses testified to a man screaming but did not hear gunshots so they would not have heard a woman scream as sje was dead already. There is a sworn statement from one of the neighbours testifying that there had beem fighting and screaming most of the time prior to shots but was not introduced as the witness died a few months ago on a car accident. So I am not sure where you get the idea of a consensus emerging that no woman screamed.
 
All the prosecution witnesses testified to a woman amd a man screaming. The defense witnesses testified to a man screaming but did not hear gunshots so they would not have heard a woman scream as sje was dead already. There is a sworn statement from one of the neighbours testifying that there had beem fighting and screaming most of the time prior to shots but was not introduced as the witness died a few months ago on a car accident. So I am not sure where you get the idea of a consensus emerging that no woman screamed.

From the internet.

And from a simple theorem.
If it was already widely accepted that Reeva's screams were beyond reasonable doubt, the case would be closed.

No one can reasonably follow all these cases in detail, but logic says her screams are not
 
If it was already widely accepted that Reeva's screams were beyond reasonable doubt, the case would be closed.

Bolding mine.

Well Pistorius has admitted killing her and the case is ongoing.

The defence is still leading their evidence. Closing arguments are still to come. Then judgement and finally sentencing.

There are no kangaroo courts here in South Africa.
 
Bolding mine.

Well Pistorius has admitted killing her and the case is ongoing.

The defence is still leading their evidence. Closing arguments are still to come. Then judgement and finally sentencing.

There are no kangaroo courts here in South Africa.

Cognitive dissonance. (whatever that is)
The question is straightforward, Reeva screamed or did not scream. The evidence is leading inexorably to the conclusion that the screams were all Pistorius. There was no argument. Reeva ate late, due to the pathologist testimony, unbeknown to Oscar, so he appears to lie, but does not. This is a tragedy of mistaken identity. Cut him some slack is my best conclusion.
 
Cognitive dissonance. (whatever that is)
The question is straightforward, Reeva screamed or did not scream. The evidence is leading inexorably to the conclusion that the screams were all Pistorius. There was no argument. Reeva ate late, due to the pathologist testimony, unbeknown to Oscar, so he appears to lie, but does not. This is a tragedy of mistaken identity. Cut him some slack is my best conclusion.

(my highlighting)

I'm afraid that I've not been following the case as closely as I ought but I'm not sure that this is necessarily the case. edited to add.... as Skwinty points out, the evidence of only OP screaming comes from someone who did not hear the gunshots and so wouldn't have been in a position to hear Reeva's screams if there were any.

Also, how are you so sure that Oscar Pistorius was unaware that Reeva had eaten and how does this follow from the pathologist testimony (the eating late I can understand, Oscar Pistorius not knowing I don't). I'm not saying that you're wrong but I'm not sure how you can be so convinced that this is the case given the evidence to date.
 
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How can you hear screaming but not gunshots? If the ear witnesses are this much off then the guy has to walk (sorry, but it's been sometime so I thought it was OK to recycle that).

It amazes me the cops have not found a decisive piece of evidence that nails the murder charge. I, too, have not been following closely enough, but has there not been a precise timeline presented to the court, calibrated on all the telephone calls? I haven't seen that.

Benefit of the doubt. Not guilty of murder. I am willing to hear argument on culpable homicide and don't care about the other offences.
 
Anglo, those earwitnesses who heard a man screaming but no gunshots were defense witnesses. I think a very telling comment from the judge wrt in or out patient at the psychiatric hospital was:
I would prefer Pistorius to be an outpatient as we do not want to punish him twice.
 
Another point wrt to your statement about the cops and the decisive evidence. This case is circumstantial so there is no smoking gun per se, other than the accused admitting that he killed Reeva. He now has 3 defenses. Intruder, automatism and now mental disorder.
 
It's not clear at all that the defence witnesses only woke up after the second lot of bangs (only one witness was awake immediately before the first bangs, which the defence argue were gunshots, and she heard nothing before that point). The next-door neighbours woke to a bang, or at least the female half of the couple did, and she woke her husband. They didn't know whether it came from inside or outside the house, so first the husband checked the daughter's room and then the rest of the house, before going back to the bedroom, hearing very loud cries and shouts for help from a man, and calling security at 3:16.

Burger and Johnson, the couple testifying for the prosecution, also called security at 3:16, and heard the second bangs after the call ended, so at about 3:17. The woman's screams and the man shouting for help all happened before that point.

It seems to me that what some witnesses described as "screams" and others described as "very loud cries" were most likely the same thing - Roux got two of the witnesses to demonstrate what they heard (admittedly being somewhat tactical by only asking two of the women!) and it sounded like wailing or shrieking. I wonder if the choice to use one word or another might have been determined by whether they believed at the time they were listening to a man or a woman, given that "screaming" is much more associated with women.

The only odd thing is why the next-door neighbours and the other defence witnesses didn't hear the second bangs, but if they were from the cricket bat, then perhaps that might be explained by them being quieter than the gunshots, by doors/windows being closed, by a poor line of sight to the bathroom, and/or because they were drowned out by the cries which happened at the same time. It's a little odd, in fact, that other witnesses were able to clearly discern screams at the same time as gunshots, since you'd have thought the gunshots would've been loud enough to drown them out (unlike cricket bat blows).
 
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Cognitive dissonance. (whatever that is)
The question is straightforward, Reeva screamed or did not scream. The evidence is leading inexorably to the conclusion that the screams were all Pistorius. There was no argument. Reeva ate late, due to the pathologist testimony, unbeknown to Oscar, so he appears to lie, but does not. This is a tragedy of mistaken identity. Cut him some slack is my best conclusion.

This is a tragedy of a pathologically angry man murdering his roommate.
 
(my highlighting)

I'm afraid that I've not been following the case as closely as I ought but I'm not sure that this is necessarily the case. edited to add.... as Skwinty points out, the evidence of only OP screaming comes from someone who did not hear the gunshots and so wouldn't have been in a position to hear Reeva's screams if there were any.

Also, how are you so sure that Oscar Pistorius was unaware that Reeva had eaten and how does this follow from the pathologist testimony (the eating late I can understand, Oscar Pistorius not knowing I don't). I'm not saying that you're wrong but I'm not sure how you can be so convinced that this is the case given the evidence to date.

This is the gastric emptying problem, the pathologist concluded she ate after 11pm, while Pistorius said they ate around 7pm. The conclusion is she slipped out of bed to eat later while he slept, or he is lying about everything. I haven't followed closely enough either.
 
Anglo, those earwitnesses who heard a man screaming but no gunshots were defense witnesses. I think a very telling comment from the judge wrt in or out patient at the psychiatric hospital was:
I would prefer Pistorius to be an outpatient as we do not want to punish him twice.
How very unjudicial.

Another point wrt to your statement about the cops and the decisive evidence. This case is circumstantial so there is no smoking gun per se, other than the accused admitting that he killed Reeva. He now has 3 defenses. Intruder, automatism and now mental disorder.
That's my point skwinty. I am surprised nothing has been found that completely demolishes his defence at a single blow. I mean, if guilty, he has crafted his story well enough to leave no blindingly obvious holes.

It's not clear at all that the defence witnesses only woke up after the second lot of bangs (only one witness was awake immediately before the first bangs, which the defence argue were gunshots, and she heard nothing before that point). The next-door neighbours woke to a bang, or at least the female half of the couple did, and she woke her husband. They didn't know whether it came from inside or outside the house, so first the husband checked the daughter's room and then the rest of the house, before going back to the bedroom, hearing very loud cries and shouts for help from a man, and calling security at 3:16.

Burger and Johnson, the couple testifying for the prosecution, also called security at 3:16, and heard the second bangs after the call ended, so at about 3:17. The woman's screams and the man shouting for help all happened before that point.

It seems to me that what some witnesses described as "screams" and others described as "very loud cries" were most likely the same thing - Roux got two of the witnesses to demonstrate what they heard (admittedly being somewhat tactical by only asking two of the women!) and it sounded like wailing or shrieking. I wonder if the choice to use one word or another might have been determined by whether they believed at the time they were listening to a man or a woman, given that "screaming" is much more associated with women.

The only odd thing is why the next-door neighbours and the other defence witnesses didn't hear the second bangs, but if they were from the cricket bat, then perhaps that might be explained by them being quieter than the gunshots, by doors/windows being closed, by a poor line of sight to the bathroom, and/or because they were drowned out by the cries which happened at the same time. It's a little odd, in fact, that other witnesses were able to clearly discern screams at the same time as gunshots, since you'd have thought the gunshots would've been loud enough to drown them out (unlike cricket bat blows).

Is there incontrovertible evidence of screams, shouting or argument before any gunshots were heard? If so he hasn't a leg to he's toast. If not, absent anything else, I have a reasonable doubt.
 
This is the gastric emptying problem, the pathologist concluded she ate after 11pm, while Pistorius said they ate around 7pm. The conclusion is she slipped out of bed to eat later while he slept, or he is lying about everything. I haven't followed closely enough either.

I understand about the gastric emptying, I just wasn't sure how you could be so nailed-on-certain that Reeva ate unknown to Oscar Pistorius when there is a perfectly viable alternative that you detail above, that Oscar Pistorius is lying about this particular part of the narrative.
 
That's my point skwinty. I am surprised nothing has been found that completely demolishes his defence at a single blow. I mean, if guilty, he has crafted his story well enough to leave no blindingly obvious holes.

I'm not sure what this single damning piece of evidence would be.

Oscar Pistorius has admitted to killing Reeva, the debate is about the circumstances around it. Given that the "accidentally shooting Reeva in the toilet thinking she was a burglar" and "deliberately shooting her in the toilet" would leave the same crime scene.

We have prosecution testimony from "ear witnesses" which seems to disprove the defence narrative and defence "ear witnesses" which supports it.

There's the evidence from the pathologist that Reeva ate later but of course as Samson points out, she could have snuck out of bed and eaten without Oscar's knowledge.

Part of the problem of finding this single piece of evidence is that AFAIK the story seems to have changed ever so slightly since the bail hearing. Of course this isn't unusual, Oscar could be recalling more details of that terrible evening that he has suppressed until now.
 
Is there incontrovertible evidence of screams, shouting or argument before any gunshots were heard? If so he hasn't a leg to he's toast. If not, absent anything else, I have a reasonable doubt.

Except that he stated he was shouting at the intruder prior to entering the bathroom area. If witnesses heard screaming/shouting before the gunshots that could tend to confirm his story, given his supposedly high-pitched shouting when stressed. Consistent evidence of arguing/screaming involving two different voices would condemn OP, but the witness evidence seems very inconsistent in this respect.

I'm not sure what this single damning piece of evidence would be.

Yes. Way back I was speculating about how the bullet trajectories might give the lie to some of his claims, but they seem to be consistent with his story.
 
I understand about the gastric emptying, I just wasn't sure how you could be so nailed-on-certain that Reeva ate unknown to Oscar Pistorius when there is a perfectly viable alternative that you detail above, that Oscar Pistorius is lying about this particular part of the narrative.

It occurs to me that it is consistent either way. The last thing an "innocent" Pistorius wants is to disclose late night activity, in fact Steenkamp's eating was certainly after midnight. He would not be acquainted with the precise science of gastric emptying when making statements immediately after the incident.
 
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