Loss Leader
I would save the receptionist., Moderator
No, yes, yes.
Being Jewish is an ethnicity but it is also a religion. Now, just like christianity, the level at which people observe their religion varies greatly. Some Jews are very strict about all the rules - just like a Catholic who goes to mass and confession and doesn't eat meat on Friday - and some follow none of the rules - just like Lutherans.
Among the Jews who aren't big on the religious aspect, they may adopt other philosophies. But I would say that adopting another religion would be crossing the line. Buddhism is a good example. Buddhism (the way it's practiced in America) is more a philosophy of peacefulness, introspection and non-violence than a full-blown religion. But in Mongolia, Buddhism comes with holidays and observances and sacred texts and lots of Buddhist idols. I would say that a Jew could practice American Buddhism and still retain a Jewish identity but probably not Mongolian-style Buddhism.
The same is true for Atheism. I, for example, do not believe in God. But I believe in Jews. I am Jewish and am raising my children as such. They will go to hebrew school and be bar mitzvahed and, hopefully, never believe in God themselves. Sorry if that sounds contradictory.
For that reason, there cannot be a Jewish christian. Christianity is a religion. Also, christianity has been so antagonistic to Judaism (as Buddhism has not been) that there is just too large a gulf to cross.
[The Lutheran thing was a joke. I kid the Lutherans. Besides, they're all up in Connecticut and won't cross the Tappan Zee to get here.]
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
They did use violence. They never really had access to advanced weaponry, so I have no idea what they would have done if they did.
steverino
Illuminator
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2006
- Messages
- 3,686
You had me, then you lost me. I have known several Jews who believe Jesus is the son of God. I think perhaps it is your wish that "Jews for Jesus" is oxymoronic, but these people do exist. Sorry.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_for_jesus
An example of a Christian Jew is Bob Dylan, who was born-again for a short time when he wrote "Slow Train Coming."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slow_Train_Coming
"It was the artist's first effort since becoming a born-again Christian, and all of the songs either express his strong personal faith, or stress the importance of Jesus Christ."
While an argument could be made that, during Dylan's Christian phase, he was no longer a Jew, it is my opinion that, as he was born a Jew, he would certainly have been persecuted during the Holocaust as a Jew, regardless of his "conversion."
Last edited:
Loss Leader
I would save the receptionist., Moderator
You had me, then you lost me. I have known several Jews who believe Jesus is the son of God. I think perhaps it is your wish that "Jews for Jesus" is oxymoronic, but these people do exist. Sorry.
Sorry to disagree. Jews for Jesus is one of the most distressing, destructive and disgusting christian evangelical movements of which I have ever heard. There is nothing Jewish about it and no way to maintain a Jewish identity of any sort while professing any belief in Jesus.
See:
http://exjewsforjesus.org/j4jquestions/
http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/j4jlibrary/jewsforjesus.html
Darth Rotor
Salted Sith Cynic
- Joined
- Aug 4, 2006
- Messages
- 38,527
No True Jew, eh?
That is the problem with the word, as discussed earlier in the thread.
If you say Christian, it has no ethnic qualifier. It is an inclusive character.
If you say Jew, you have to guess at meaning: by blood, by culture, by Faith/Confession, some of each, all three? Confusion immediately ensues, which is either a sign that Jews have successfully bound religion, blood, and nation where no one else has, or that Jews have successfully confused the entire issure for the same reason. (Absent malice.)
This raises the puzzle of the Jewish Atheist, which is apparently not quite the oxymoron a Christian Atheist or Muslim Atheist would be.
From the theological point of view, you cannot be a Jew (Faith/Confession) and a Christian at the same time, since to be Christian you have to profess to the Divinity of Jesus, while a Jew and a Muslim can both, in good conscience, approach him as a man and a prophet. That distinction allows for no middle ground.
I'd like to see less confusion on "what a true Jew is" but given the way the descriptive began and has grown, the confusion is bound to continue when people are not comparing apples and apples, but are rather comparing lox and broiled trout. Both are fish, but the devil is in the details.
DR
Loss Leader
I would save the receptionist., Moderator
Jews do not consider jesus to be a prophet. We do not study his teachings or words at all. Nothing written after the Old Testament (with a few very minor exceptions) is ever taken as the word of God or even divinely inspired. Any Jew that considers Jesus a prophet of God is no longer practicing the Jewish religion.
I would say that a good rule of thumb as to whether someone is a "Jew" is whether other Jews recognize him as such. In my experience, no one who considers Jesus a prophet would be considered to be Jewish by even the most reform congregations.
As to the ambiguity of who is or is not a Jew, I would only remark that this ambiguity only exists at the very outer edges. For the vast majority, there is no question of who can be considered Jewish. There is a tiny minority for whom the question becomes harder - Jewish atheists, Jews with Christmas trees, Madaline Albright - but there is never a sharp edge in human social classifications. There will always be a little ambiguity.
Barack Obama is the son of an African and a caucasian. Is he "black" even though he has no family history of slavery? My wife was born and raised in Canada before becoming a naturalized American. She retains her Canadian citizenship. Is she American? These questions will always linger but they concern a vanishingly small percentage of the population.
Cleon
King of the Pod People
I'm not disagreeing with you, LL (in fact, I agree with you about JfJ), but I see a slight contradiction.
On the one hand, you say that if you believe that Jesus is moshiach, you're no longer practicing the Jewish religion.
If that's the case, though, why is it ok to not believe in God at all? Seems to me that's even *more* antithetical to Judaism than Jesus.
steverino
Illuminator
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2006
- Messages
- 3,686
1) To say JFJ is distressing and disgusting is sentimental, and I agree with you, but this is not a valid argument.
Let's try this. I am Jewish. Say I marry a Jew. Then, God-forbid, we both become Born-again Christians. We have kids. These kids are raised Christian. They become adults and reject Christianity. If they want to join an Orthodox Jewish temple, they do not need to convert like a non-Jew wanting to become Jewish. They already are Jewish. Therefore, even though their parents have Christian koodies, they are still Jews.
Loss Leader
I would save the receptionist., Moderator
I understand that there is a fine difference. I'll go farther and say that I'm sure there are many Jews who would consider an atheist to be about as un-Jewish as one who picked up with the JFJ nonsense.
Perhaps the difference is in outward behavior and appearance. One can be an atheist in one's heart and still go to services, celebrate Passover, send children to hebrew school, etc. Outwardly, no atheism shows. I don't think this is possible for a "christian jew." Such a person might go to a worship service now and again but then he'd go to a christian service as well (or a JFJ service, whatever filth that is). And he won't send his children to hebrew school.
Now a die-hard atheist who will not practice any aspect of the religion might be a diffent case. Once a person stops finding Annie Hall funny, there is really nothing Jewish left of him. I would say that it is possible to be a Jewish atheist but that not all Jews who become atheists retain their Judaism. In contrast, I would say it is impossible to be a jewish christian under any circumstance.
Loss Leader
I would save the receptionist., Moderator
But were they Jews before they rejected christianity? I would argue they were not.
Once again, such cases are at the rare outer fringes of the definition of "Jewish" and there cannot be a satisfactory bright-line test. Such is simply the nature of human social interaction.
steverino
Illuminator
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2006
- Messages
- 3,686
You didn't read my posts? Bob Dylan was a Jewish Christian. Your contempt for Christian Jews is clouding your reason.
FWIW, I feel "Bananas" holds up better than "Annie Hall."
Last edited:
Loss Leader
I would save the receptionist., Moderator
Simply because you have found a person who was born Jewish who accepted Jesus does not mean that there is a class of people called "jewish christians." To the extent that accepting Jesus is inconsistent with not accepting Jesus, Dylan was no longer Jewish. It's a definitional thing - you and I disagree on the definition of "jewish christian." You have defined it to have meaning, I have defined it to have none.
Without some additional information, there is no reason to believe your definition is any better than mine. I believe that additional information is the opinion of the large majority of Jews. I believe the large majority would agree that one cannot maintain one's Judaism and also believe in Jesus.
I would say your love for Bob Dylan is clouding your reason.
Cleon
King of the Pod People
Well, even Rambam had "belief in God" as the first of his 13 Principles of Faith.
I don't really see this as a rational argument, to be honest.
First, because you're incorrect; a lot of Messianic "synagogues" (I call them "churchagogues") have Hebrew schools, and the Messianics I have known do have Pesach seders, and celebrate Hanukkah, the whole shebang--they see their belief in Jesus as an addition to their Judaism, not as a substitute.
Second, what is the difference between someone who is an "atheist in his heart" and goes through all the motions, versus someone who's a Christian in his heart and goes through all the same motions? What makes the atheist "more" Jewish than the Christian?
What about the Jew who marries a Christian and, even though he still believes in Judaism in his heart, winds up going to church or agreeing to send his kids to Christian Sunday school? By your logic, outwardly no Judaism shows, so he's not really Jewish anymore.
steverino
Illuminator
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2006
- Messages
- 3,686
I strongly disagree with every fiber of my Jewish being. Back in the '70's a disproportionate amount of Hari Krishnas, Moonies, and other cults were Jews. I am searching for evidence on line, but I remember 60 Minutes and others reporting that some of these urban Krishna temples were 50% Jewish. Jews of course are only a couple percent of our population. Why Jews are attracted to such belief systems is another question. The point is that these people were still Jews. Some of course were deprogrammed or simply grew out of it and deemed their cult as a trend. Then, abra-ka-dabra- they were Jews. Their spritual search back in the day did not erase this.
Last edited:
Twilek
Thinker
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2005
- Messages
- 140
Having converted several years ago, it is my understanding that if one's mother is considered a Jew (either because her own mother was a Jew or she went through a halachically (sp?) recognized conversion) when a child is born, then the child is forever recognized as a Jew. Jews practicing another religion are still Jewish by birth but are considered apostates.
brooklyn44
Thinker
- Joined
- May 22, 2006
- Messages
- 238
I agree with Twilek. For the time that Dylan accepted Jesus as his personal savior he was considered an apostate. Then, TADA!, he was back in the fold. Just a mixed-up boychik. During the Middle Ages, someone like Dylan would have been excommuicated (that's not the right word, but can't reach into the recesses of my gray matter and produce it).
Some of us Jews tend to think that the cultural geschtalt is the tie that binds and not necessarily the belief in a big-guy-in-the-sky.
b44
Some of us Jews tend to think that the cultural geschtalt is the tie that binds and not necessarily the belief in a big-guy-in-the-sky.
b44
Loss Leader
I would save the receptionist., Moderator
I understand your point and disagree with it.
steverino
Illuminator
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2006
- Messages
- 3,686
By whom, the Vatican?
And so what? They are still Jews. "Disgusting," according to Loss Leader, but Jews none the less.