• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Zionism.

JAStewart

Graduate Poster
JAStewart
Joined
Nov 5, 2006
Messages
1,521
I've never really understood Zionism. As far as I'm aware... its the creation of an all Jewish state?

I hate to use Avery as an example here, but I don't see why he got shot down for saying he didn't want there to be an all jewish state - while stating that he also didn't agree with an all christian state, or an all muslim state.

Personally, i'm more inclined to agree with him on that. I don't think that unity can be achieved by dividing people.

Is this really an anti sematic belief? I would realllllllllllllly not consider myself racist or anything, and I infact try to combat racism and xenophobia and stuff.

So if anyone can explain why this belief is warped, or wrong please do, I'm very willing to listen and change my views if there is something I am missing.

Cheers.
 
That's a VERY complicated subject. I'm not sure it's appropriate for this forum though.

"Zionism is an international political movement that supports a homeland for the Jewish people in the Land of Israel. Formally organized in the late 19th century, the movement was successful in establishing the State of Israel in 1948, as the world's first and only modern Jewish State. It continues primarily as support for the state and government of Israel and its continuing status as a homeland for the Jewish people. Described as a "diaspora nationalism", its proponents regard it as a national liberation movement whose aim is the self-determination of the Jewish people."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism
 
JAStewart said:
I've never really understood Zionism. As far as I'm aware... its the creation of an all Jewish state?

I hate to use Avery as an example here, but I don't see why he got shot down for saying he didn't want there to be an all jewish state - while stating that he also didn't agree with an all christian state, or an all muslim state.

Personally, i'm more inclined to agree with him on that. I don't think that unity can be achieved by dividing people.

Is this really an anti sematic belief? I would realllllllllllllly not consider myself racist or anything, and I infact try to combat racism and xenophobia and stuff.

So if anyone can explain why this belief is warped, or wrong please do, I'm very willing to listen and change my views if there is something I am missing.

Cheers.
Click to expand...

Zionism is Jewish nationalism. I don't mind that. But, in the cutural framework of the the US and Europe after 1945. Nationalism is bad, except Jewish nationalism. That's hypocracy.

Zionism was the movement that made it possible for the creation of Israel. Palestine belongs to the Palestinians. So Israel is simply stolen property and stolen land. This has been made clear even for the mainstream idiots after Benny Morris book a couple of years ago. In 1948 the Jews expelled 700 000 Palestinians, creating the huge refugee problem. They have never been allowed to return. This is a fact.

PS: Benny Morris is a zionist, his position is that this was necessary for the creation of the Israeli state. And he is a good historian. Good historians don't lie.
 
Last edited:
pagan said:
Zionism is Jewish nationalism. I don't mind that. But, in the cutural framework of the the US and Europe after 1945. Nationalism is bad, except Jewish nationalism. That's hypocracy.
Click to expand...
Nowhere in Zionism does it say nationalism is bad. NAZIs are bad. Not simply because of nationalism. I think it was the mass genocide of Jews and others.

PS: Benny Morris is a zionist, his position is that this was necessary for the creation of the Israeli state. And he is a good historian. Good historians don't lie.
Click to expand...
what? :confused: Historians don't lie? Ummm where do we begin with this one? Could you provide evidence that "good" historians don't lie? Is that part of the application process in the Masters or PHD programs at Universities?
Universtiy entrance guy: "Do you Lie?"
Applicant: "Yes!"
University Entrancve guy: "well you rejected than!. No history for you!"
 
Last edited:
Whether one approves or disapproves of a Jewish state, the fact is that it exists. So it seems to me that to be anti-Zionist is little more than to say one supports the destruction of Israel.
 
The US is on Stolen Land. Canada is on stolen land. Mexico, Australia, New Zealand, every country in Central and South America are all on stolen land.

The whole map of Europe is different than it was 100 years ago. I sure land was stolen.
 
Brainster said:
Whether one approves or disapproves of a Jewish state, the fact is that it exists. So it seems to me that to be anti-Zionist is little more than to say one supports the destruction of Israel.
Click to expand...

Well, not neccesarily, or rather, it depends on what meaning you put in the "destruction of". Im all against states built on religious beliefs, since it automatically excludes all not confessing to the state religion. I think the church should stay out of state governing business. That would make me an anti-Zionist. I would settle for a non-confessional Israel, as I would any other state, however I hardly think that could be described as "the destruction of Israel". I believe, however, that when president [SIZE=-1]Ahmadinejad of Iran says he is anti-Zionist and calls for the "destruction of Israel", he means more or less exactly that.

Cheers,
SLOB
[/SIZE]
 
firecoins said:
The US is on Stolen Land. Canada is on stolen land. Mexico, Australia, New Zealand, every country in Central and South America are all on stolen land.

The whole map of Europe is different than it was 100 years ago. I sure land was stolen.
Click to expand...

That's what I was thinking. I guess that doesn't make it right, but history, and time, has a way of putting different perspectives on things.
 
Not all Israelis are equal.

There are some Arabs who are Israeli citizens. They have their own political parties in Israel’s assembly. However in reality they do not have equal rights. They are treated like blacks were during segregation. An example was during the last war with Lebanon the Israeli jews had shelters to go to when the missiles began to fall. The Arab citizens of Israel did not have shelters.
 
MaGZ said:
There are some Arabs who are Israeli citizens. They have their own political parties in Israel’s assembly. However in reality they do not have equal rights. They are treated like blacks were during segregation. An example was during the last war with Lebanon the Israeli jews had shelters to go to when the missiles began to fall.
Click to expand...
All of them? Provided by whom? Do you have evidence for this claim?
 
It is true that Israel fails miserably as a democracy. They have a long way to go. But that doesnt mean that Zionism is a secret Jewish conspiracy to enslave mankind, as MaGZ would argue.
 
MaGZ said:
There are some Arabs who are Israeli citizens. They have their own political parties in Israel’s assembly. However in reality they do not have equal rights. They are treated like blacks were during segregation. An example was during the last war with Lebanon the Israeli jews had shelters to go to when the missiles began to fall. The Arab citizens of Israel did not have shelters.
Click to expand...
I have met Israeli Arabs. They don't paint that picture at all. Israel doesn't stone Arab women which occurs in many Arab countries.
 
It's important to make distinctions here...

"Jewish state" does not mean "Judaist" state. "Jew" is not a religious title, it is an ethnic one. Most Jews happen to follow the religion of Judaism, but not all of them.

Although the practical reality is Judaism will have significant influence in a Jewish state as per Zionism, there is nothing in Zionism that specifically requires a religious element. An all-Jewish secular state, or (just going to extremes) an all-Jewish Hindu state would still be Zionist.

-Gumboot
 
parky76 said:
It is true that Israel fails miserably as a democracy. They have a long way to go. But that doesnt mean that Zionism is a secret Jewish conspiracy to enslave mankind, as MaGZ would argue.
Click to expand...

It is true according to who? Take a look at the countries around Israel and then tell me Israels democracy is a failure.

Last time I looked there were arabs in Israels Parliament. How many jews are in governments in the arab world?

Whether you like it or not, Israel is the only truely transparent democracy in the middle east. Hopefully it wont stay the only one for ever!

Mailman
 
firecoins said:
The US is on Stolen Land. Canada is on stolen land. Mexico, Australia, New Zealand, every country in Central and South America are all on stolen land.

The whole map of Europe is different than it was 100 years ago. I sure land was stolen.
Click to expand...

It's the stealing that's the messy part. Australia is on stolen land, and IMHO, not nearly enough has been done to remedy that event with it's original inhabitants. It was only in 1967 that the aboriginals were even recognised as citizens with a vote.
 
You know what's really weird?

A lot of noise is made about Israel being an all-Jewish state and the implications of a nation ruled by religion.

What is seldom pointed out is that "Jew" is not a religion, Israel is not a religious or all-Jewish state, and that Islam is infact unique in the entire world for being the ONLY religion that has not one, but MANY states that are EXCLUSIVELY Islamic.

It's fascinating.

(Okay, I'm ignoring Vatican City, I don't really consider it a country).

-Gumboot
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom