Zionism= World Domination???

[a_unique_person]

Hear, hear.

What I've observed in the spewings of 9/11 cranks and in surfing Indymedia sites in search of something to get my blood pressure up to going-to-work-and-contending-with-idiots level is that the word "Zionist" seems to have much the same function for the thoroughly modern paranoid conspiracist that "Communist" did for those earlier masters of political paranoia, the Birchers.

First, it provides something no proper paranoid can do without- an enemy, preferably an abstraction which can be reified into a preternaturally powerful evil Other which has extended its tentacles into all parts of society, where they can be seen only by the paranoid initiate. It creates a handy demarcation between Us and Them for the benefit of black/white thinking.

Second, it provides an off-the-rack ready-made explanation for all and any political or social conflicts, in a way that provides for the instant dismissal of any uncomfortable thoughts that they might provoke.

Why, black people would be prefectly happy riding in the back of the bus, well away from the polls, if it weren't for those !@#$ Communists stirring them up to weaken Our society and take it over.

Workers wouldn't be joining unions and striking over wages and conditions if it weren't for those @$#% Communist agitators trying to undermine Our society and take it over.

The Middle East would be a garden flowing with milk and honey if it weren't for those @#$% Zionists messing everything up to further their plans for world domination.

There would be no unrest in the Muslim world to spill over into Our lives, irrespective of any religious, economic or political issues, if it weren't for those @#$% Zionists controlling our media, economy and governmental policies to undermine Our society and take it over.

There's no need to think about present conditions, their historical roots or their moral implications, nor to try to bring practical problem-solving skills to bear. We can't have that; it's got to be someone else's fault- Their fault. If We devote Ourselves to rooting out Them and destroying Their power We can solve all Our problems without having to think about the details of how We got here and where it's possible to go.

Third, it serves as a club to wield against opponents. Is someone advocating ideas that don't fit into your ideology or refuting your claims with pesky facts? Just call them a [fill in the blank]ist and presto! You've absolved yourself of any need to consider ideas or evidence on their own merits and magically pre-rejected whatever your interlocuter might say in the future. You can also demand that since so-and-so has been identified as one of Them, they should be deprived of all opportunity to speak. (This works like a charm on certain Indymedia sites, where the editors consider enforcing ideological conformity their primary duty.)

Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than myself could examine the apparent parallels between the paranoid style Hofstadter looked at back in the '60s and old-fashioned "Protocols of Zion"-style historical anti-Semitism and how, with "Zionist" replacing "Communist" as the bogeyman of choice, the paranoid style has come around in a circle.

Zionism is no more or less than what it claims to be, a Jewish movement for a state in Israel. It also lobbies various governments and people around the world in pursuit of that claim, with varying degrees of success and determination. That's where it stops, IMHO. Zionism as bogeyman is where criticism of Zionism goes off the rails.

Many people seem to have an inbuilt need to find the 'one true' cause of the their ills, real or imaginary, in life. If only this problem was gone, the world would be good again. Unfortunately, Jews in general seem to fit that role for many people, with Zionism as another form of that. If Zionism didn't exist, or Jews, the world would still have myriad problems, and some other group would be elected to fit the role.

The demise of communism for some, as Fukuyama http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Fukuyama found out with his 'end of history' debacle, was going to be the dawning of a new age of peace and prosperity. It didn't happen. If Israel was 'wiped off the map', the middle east would still be in a turmoil.

 

[mailman]

Israel's stated objectives, before the invasion, were to rescue the two kidnapped soldiers, and to militarily cripple Hezbollah. They achieved neither. Defeat.

Haha, defeat you say...what are you 6 years old?

Objectives werent achieved, YET they still ruled the battle field? So much for being defeated

What they did do was kill somewhere between 250 (if you believe Hezbollah) and 600 (if you believe the IDF) guerillas

The death toll amongst the terrorists is likely several times higher BUT you will never know the real number simply because Hisbulla wont ever release their actual losses.

and destroy a lot of civillian infrastructure.

Which wouldnt have been destroyed had Hisbulla not attacked in the first place.

This inconveniences Hezbollah, badly hurts a lot of south Lebanese civillians, and makes the IDF look like brutes to most of the world.

So let me see if I got this right. Hisbulla attacks and kills 8 soliders, this is an unprovoked attack, israel has not had forces inside Lebanon for a number of years YET you consider Israel to be the Brutes? They werent the ones that dragged Lebanon in to another conflict.

The IDF took considerable losses, considering the technological disparity. More than 50 soldiers dead, more than 10 tanks destroyed. That was in just that short engagement.

Hold on here...in your first sentence you say CONSIDERABLE losses, but then only list 50 soldiers and 10 tanks?

Since when has that ever been considered CONSIDERABLE losses?? Farken hell, if you believe this is CONSIDERABLE loss then what do you call all those terrorists killed by the Israelies? Genocide?

The post I replied to implied that Israel could conquer the whole region if they were so inclined. No way. Not with that rate of attrition.

Mate, if Israel wasnt hindered by world opinion or concern for civilians there would be no palistinian "problem". There would be no Hisbulla terrorist organisation and most likely bugger all left of Syria and Tehran.

The only thing that saved hisbulla from being wiped out was world opinion (that was massaged quite nicely by the MSM eagerness to show anything anti-israeli at any chance they could get. Do a google on dodgy news stories or photoshopped images and you will see what Im talking about, thank you AP and Reuters!).

The ethnic cleansing referred to by almost every Israeli prime minister ever. My first google search turned up http://www.monabaker.com/quotes.htm and it would be easy to find many, many more examples. Googling for Israeli PM quotes is the fastest way to convince yourself that ethnic cleansing has taken place.

Ah yes, that link you posted is the bee's knees of objectiveness isnt it

What ethnic cleansing, indeed.

Yes, Im still waiting for you to show me some ethnic cleansing, all you have done is post a website with a whole bunch of "selective" quoting mining...the sort of tactic 9/11 conspiracist cnuts are well known for.

Then again, perhaps if you wrapped some context around those quotes (if you are a 9/11 conspiracist cnut then you may need to look the word "context" up) you'd understand the bigger picture

They have the stomach for it now. My opinion is that this could change in the future. Just an opinion, though.

Understood.

The percentage of the population that is Jewish has been slowly but steadily declining pretty much since the founding of the state. The change will barely be noticed over a 5 year period, but over 50 years, it will be huge.

Where did you get this from?

Both Iran and Syria are still funneling weapons to Hezbollah. Some of the rockets Hezbollah fired in 2006 were Iranian designs. They've been doing it for decades. So, whatever was going to happen, already has.

Probably not, especially if them moolahs in tehran do get ahold of working nukes...after all, arma...ajma...the president of Iran states daily his intention to wipe Israel off the face of the planet (that is of course when he can find time between holocaust denial conferences ).

One, the US decides Israel is no longer useful and withdraws it's support.

Not likely ever to happen, not when Israel is the only true democracy in the middle east AND both countries have considerable business investment in each other.

Once again, google for some quotes by Israeli leaders. You don't need to go beyond Ben-Gurion to get some real cold-blooded doozies, but every Israeli leader has said some pretty callous things about Arabs.

Lets see the quotes AND have those quotes in CONTEXT!

Because last time I checked them evil jooooooooooos arent clamouring for the total destruction of the Palestinians. Heck, if you are wanting the total destruction of your enemies why pull out of disputed settlements? Seems a strange way of going about totally destroying your enemies isnt it?

Nobody has clean hands in the middle east

Something we both agree on.

you can cherry-pick your history to paint anyone as villain or victim.

Ill cherry pick my history as long as you cherry pick your quotes.

It nauseates me when people feel the need to go that far back in history to determine who has a rightful claim to the place. Living there for more than a generation or two is claim enough.

Actually this is quite interesting, how did the muslims come to live in "Palestine"? Was it through peaceful relocation or was it due to conquest?

Anyway, just had to knock down the notion that Israel could possibly conquer the middle east, since they haven't even managed to grab all of Palestine yet. I don't want to spend too much time educating jingoists, however. They have trouble absorbing facts they don't want to hear.

IF Israel really wanted all of Palestine you, me, Bob Dobalina wouldnt be able to stop them however considering they arent even trying to take Palestine I see your arguement as being a moot point.

Now, to get back to conspiracy theories, and I hope this is the only bit that gets replies: I think the high level of US support for Israel is contrary to America's best interests... so why do they do it?

Why do they do it? gee, you think they are doing it because Israel is the only functioning, transparant, stable democracy in the middle east? Good ally to have dont you think?

Or do you think them yankees are only doing it cause the joooooooooos control the white house?

Mailman

 

[mailman]

There would be no unrest in the Muslim world to spill over into Our lives, irrespective of any religious, economic or political issues, if it weren't for those @#$% Zionists controlling our media,

You know, if the "Zionists" really did control the media then they have been ripped off!

Mailman

 

[mailman]

Then the nuclear NPT wouldn't be worth the paper it was printed on.
Everyone within nuking distance of Israel would have no choice but to shut up and work like crazy on their own nuclear deterrent. They'd be completely justified in doing so. I don't think Israel really wants that.

Why would they fear a Nuke armed Israel?

After all, when was the last time Israel threatened to wipe Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iran off the face of the planet?

The very fact that Israel HASNT nuked anyone inspite of many countries around them supporting terrorists in Lebanon and Palestine, is a pretty good indication that Israel isnt a nuclear threat to anyone.

Mailman

Mailman

 

[Thunder]

Why would they fear a Nuke armed Israel?

After all, when was the last time Israel threatened to wipe Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iran off the face of the planet?

The very fact that Israel HASNT nuked anyone inspite of many countries around them supporting terrorists in Lebanon and Palestine, is a pretty good indication that Israel isnt a nuclear threat to anyone.

Mailman

Mailman

thats a good point.

 

[gumboot]

Can we please keep this on topic?

This is about the theory of Zionism being a policy of world domination, rather than a nationalistic movement. To my mind, that fits into the CT sub-forum. If you want to discuss the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty, the Israel-Lebanon War, Palestine/Israel, or any other assorted political topics, there's an entire sub-forum dedicated to it.

-Gumboot

 

[Anti-sophist]

I checked the Unabridged Paranoid Conspiracy Theorist Dictionary and found zionism defined fairly succintly.

Zi·on·ism, n. : A concept that shelters me from being called Anti-Semitic but lets me hate the Jews.

I've often tried to figure out why conspiracy theorists also tend to be virulently anti-semitic, and I really can't explain it. I guess the protocols is just too tasty of treat for their paranoid pysche, and once something like that gets into the cycle of craziness, it never escapes.

 

[David Swidler]

Zionism is no more or less than what it claims to be, a Jewish movement for a state in Israel. It also lobbies various governments and people around the world in pursuit of that claim, with varying degrees of success and determination. That's where it stops, IMHO. Zionism as bogeyman is where criticism of Zionism goes off the rails.

Many people seem to have an inbuilt need to find the 'one true' cause of the their ills, real or imaginary, in life. If only this problem was gone, the world would be good again. Unfortunately, Jews in general seem to fit that role for many people, with Zionism as another form of that. If Zionism didn't exist, or Jews, the world would still have myriad problems, and some other group would be elected to fit the role.

The demise of communism for some, as Fukuyama http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Fukuyama found out with his 'end of history' debacle, was going to be the dawning of a new age of peace and prosperity. It didn't happen. If Israel was 'wiped off the map', the middle east would still be in a turmoil.

I seldom agree 100% with a_unique_person. This particular post, however, is a well written exception.

As a Jew, the whole Jews-control everything attitude cheeses me for two reasons: 1) It's not so nice to see my (extended) peeps blamed, abused, killed, etc. for the world's ills, and 2) We don't even get the benefit of it being true. I mean, what I wouldn't give to have access to all that money and power I'm said to have...

 

[beachnut]

I seldom agree 100% with a_unique_person. This particular post, however, is a well written exception.

As a Jew, the whole Jews-control everything attitude cheeses me for two reasons: 1) It's not so nice to see my (extended) peeps blamed, abused, killed, etc. for the world's ills, and 2) We don't even get the benefit of it being true. I mean, what I wouldn't give to have access to all that money and power I'm said to have...

Where can anyone go to get an even view and dialog on Zionism and Israel that is factual?

How can someone be more even on Zionism, Jews, Israel, and the Middle East; where can you find some sources to shut down the lies spread from all sides on the topic. There seems to be a new source of junk pouring out from the left. Did I miss something? Where is all the blaming Israel stuff coming from and where is a balanced source to moderate what seems to be fringe idiots speaking lies.

I am saying left only because one person who hates bush is pushing the junk on Jews; but it sounds more like from what ever direction Alex Jones is; some fringe idiot type rant.

(and reading this thread helps point out some areas to study; nice)

 

[William Rea]

Hear, hear.

What I've observed in the spewings of 9/11 cranks and in surfing Indymedia sites in search of something to get my blood pressure up to going-to-work-and-contending-with-idiots level is that the word "Zionist" seems to have much the same function for the thoroughly modern paranoid conspiracist that "Communist" did for those earlier masters of political paranoia, the Birchers...Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than myself could examine the apparent parallels between the paranoid style Hofstadter looked at back in the '60s and old-fashioned "Protocols of Zion"-style historical anti-Semitism and how, with "Zionist" replacing "Communist" as the bogeyman of choice, the paranoid style has come around in a circle.

In the same way, it is now just as easy to shout "anti-Semite" as it is to shout "Zionist NWO" rather than address the real issue.

 

[William Rea]

I checked the Unabridged Paranoid Conspiracy Theorist Dictionary and found zionism defined fairly succintly.

Zi·on·ism, n. : A concept that shelters me from being called Anti-Semitic but lets me hate the Jews.

I've often tried to figure out why conspiracy theorists also tend to be virulently anti-semitic, and I really can't explain it. I guess the protocols is just too tasty of treat for their paranoid pysche, and once something like that gets into the cycle of craziness, it never escapes.

And your evidence for the connection between CT's and anti-Semitism is?

 

[William Rea]

The minority of people who can't decide whether we are being taken over by Judaism, Lizards, Illuminati or whatever their next flight of fancy is are as inconsequential as any of those other groupings on the extreme right and left of politics (easy to get them mixed up).

World domination is not a stated aim of Zionism, whose political aims are clearly defined by themselves. Leading political Zionists would no doubt see themselves as significant players in the political world order but not uniquely powerful in that grouping.

As stated in another thread I don't understand why you patronise Zionists by trying to make them out to be uniquely without flaw in the world of political self interest. While they may not be behind 911 in any way, it is not unreasonable to believe that they would act in their self interest to benefit from it.

I believe that this denial is fuel to those who believe the world domination Zionist conspiracy.

Crying "anti-Semite" will eventually become the same as crying "Wolf" if we are not careful.

 

[William Rea]

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[Sleepy]

Crying "anti-Semite" will eventually become the same as crying "Wolf" if we are not careful.

Anti-semite is a bit of a weird term, since the label gets attached to a lot of semites as well. Semites include Jews, Arabs, Assyrians, etc etc... they're all cousins if you go back far enough.

Why not just say "anti-Jew"?

 

[William Rea]

Anti-semite is a bit of a weird term, since the label gets attached to a lot of semites as well. Semites include Jews, Arabs, Assyrians, etc etc... they're all cousins if you go back far enough.

Why not just say "anti-Jew"?

It is pretty well known that many Semitic tribes exist, that's not news anymore.

Anti-Semite (however flawed its usage) is a shorthand that is recognised as meaning that someone holds racial views about "Jewish" people. I don't think there is a need to have another term invented is there?

 

[Zep]

Actually, not "Jewish" at all. Semites. And Semites != Jews. There are plenty of Jews who are not Semites, and Semites who are not Jews.

 

[Brainache]

Anti-semite is a bit of a weird term, since the label gets attached to a lot of semites as well. Semites include Jews, Arabs, Assyrians, etc etc... they're all cousins if you go back far enough.

No Jew Scotsman?

 

[a_unique_person]

For a similar mindset, check out www.littlegreenfootballs.com .

 

[Foolmewunz]

William,
It's quite correct that an anti-Zionist need not be anti-semitic. There are (albeit not that common) Jews who are not Zionists. I will grant you that. However, there are very few, if any, holocaust deniers who are not anti-semites.

No, I'm not going to give you a list, I'm really not going to be bothered with it, so if you disagree with the bolded statement, I don't really care.

The point being made by several (especially Anti-Sophist, I believe) is that anti-zionist has become a convenient shorthand for right wingers in order that they can nudge and wink at each other and yet pretend to use acceptable terms. Do you actually deny this common usage?

It's like "welfare cheats" was used in the 80's. I've heard callers on Rush using "them" and "those people" so often that I've wanted to scream at the radio.

Please don't dignify this by wrapping it in intellectual sophistry. There is a strict literal meaning of the term "anti-zionist", we'll all agree. But the common usage is as a byword so that you don't have to say in public, "Well, I don't trust Jews."

And please don't chirp in on another thread with the same mis-directed comment. What you last time described as the "last refuse of a scoundrel" is totally wrong, both in that particular thread and in general on these forums. Calling someone who speaks anti-semitic doctrine (in the case of the previous thread) an anti-semite is accurate, if unpleasant. If I were to call you a baby-raper because I don't like your political ideas, or a fascist because you're a little to the right of me, then that's the act of a scoundrel.

If you would research some of the posts and the referrals before getting out the soap box, you would fare better.

As to the OP: Zionism has nothing to do with world domination. Period. It is even argued amongst Zionists as to whether it justifies past expansion in their own tiny area. The world-domination coin is played by the mental midgets who believe in the crap handed down from the notorious Protocols.

 

[Skeptic]

If you are prepared to cut the world domination stuff, and that Israel is behind 9-11, I am happy to engage in a debate with you on the Palestinian Israel issue.

Oh great, just what JREF needs--more Israpalestine, I mean Palisrael, threads.

In any case, to reply to the original poster: whatever the virtues or faults of zionism, few of the people who claim zionism wants to control the world have the slightest idea what zionism is.

The "zionism wants to control the world" conspiracy theory is nothing more than the old "Jews want to control the world" conspiracy theory. It became popular after the holocaust made it socially inconvenient to be openly antisemitic, so ranting against the "zionists" instead became popular.

Similarly, while it's certainly possible to be anti-zionist without being antisemitic (and, theoretically at least, vise-versa), in practice, the more extreme and deep someone's "anti-zionism", the more likely it is that they're simply antisemites who find it socially convenient to claim they are "just anti-zionists".

Certainly not every "I think zionism is a bad idea" anti-zionist is an antisemite; but when you reach "zionism control the world" levels of "anti-zionism", the person is almost invariably simply a "Jews control the world" antisemite.