Zen enlightenment

[Matteo Martini]

Well, as I said, I have no idea if that was 'zen', by which I meant satori, only the descriptions that other people wrote finally made sense. Certainly what happened was nothing more than a shift in consciousness, and not the destruction of the ego that seems to happen with deep enlightment, if such things happen. In any case, I think satori, if it exists, has a prosaic explanation based on how the brain is wired.

Like you, I'm sceptical, but also open to the possibility that it exists. That's why the ongoing brain research is so interesting.

Well, I am also " sceptical, but also open to the possibility that it exists ", I am just full of practical questions that I tried to ask during this thread

And I do not know if everything is any experience of our mind has " a prosaic explanation based on how the brain is wired ", i had a long discussion with Correa Neto on this ( do you remember Bodhi Dharma ?? )

Back then he ( Correa Neto ) was more " the rational one " while I was the mystic

 

[Matteo Martini]

Matteo:

About Lord Buddha: I am the most irreligious man you’ll ever meet; I don’t for one moment believe in Lord Anybody. I use Buddha’s name metaphorically to mean that you are the sole inhabitant of your mind; you have sovereignty over your thoughts, or at least you can try to gain sovereignty through correct practice.

When your car breaks down or you fall while skiing, you alone can say whether these were moments worth talking about. I have read of a man experiencing satori while looking down at the foam of his own urine; I have read of a man experiencing satori when about to commit suicide out of despair at not experiencing satori.

As for this versus that, or tathata as the Buddhists say: You have completely misunderstood the meaning of non-dichotomy. Excellent! You are making exactly the progress you should! Continue straight ahead!

Unlike Bodhi Darma Zen, I have no stick to beat you with. I apologize for that.

The man experience satori just befori suicide is an old Zen story ..

However, when my car broke down and you broke your chopsticks we DID NOT experience anything, no satori, so this was my point that this " normal " moments are not worth talikng about ..

Just my opinion ( my 2 cents worth like the Americans say .. )

 

[Matteo Martini]

We've lost touch now, since I've moved to Tasmania, and it wasn't an entirely positive experience for him. He was more or less disconnected from reality for some time, and started his own idiotic cult during that period which he has now dissociated himself from.

Although I can't speak for him, if he feels now as he did when we last talked he'd advise you to pursue "enlightenment" within the structure of some folk tradition that has mechanisms in place to make such adverse outcomes less likely... like Zen buddhism. You can muck about with it yourself, but some people do go a bit loopy that way.

So,　maybe looking after enlightenment is not a good idea after all ..
Or alternative explanation, am I skeptic ??, your friend did not get anywhere, just thought he reached something but he ( like many other people maybe ?? ) did not get anywhere

If you read between the lines, a lot of religions and religious schisms start when one person wigs out and believes they have received a revelation. In one Gospel this is exactly what happened to Jesus in fact - he walked into a river and suddenly "realised" out of the blue he was the messiah.



As far as I'm concerned there is no God, and there is no God involved in these religious experiences.

Your vision about how Jesus realised he was the Messiah is not the same one I have learned from the Catholics and I have been to Church for MANY years.

Enlightenment events are brain seizures triggered by some combination of stress, sensory deprivation, emotional turmoil, repetitive chanting, dietary restrictions and who knows what else. You can get them chanting Christian prayers in a church and fasting while tormented with guilt for your sins, or chanting mantras at a retreat and eating crappy food while tormented with your boring life. In either case it can happen when you're meditating or it can be triggered by a seemingly unrelated event after you've been meditating.

Interesting ( even if not new ) explanation of satori and enlightenment, unfortunately, not supported by any evidence.
So, one opinion among other opinions ..

Absolutely. The last thing any established religious institution needs is people wigging out and declaring that they have received a revelation. Such people tend to nick off with a chunk of the flock and found rival religious institutions. What priest wants a member of their flock deciding that they have more spiritual authority than the priest does?

Catholics are different from Zen Masters which are different from Muslims ..
All religions and phylosophies say different things and have different paths.
One thing in common, maybe, no evidence ( unless you reach satori or you see the Holy Lady ) ??

 

[Matteo Martini]

Last thing:

I would like to read and keep posting on this thread because I find it interesting and I find also interesting to discuss this subject with you all.

However, my time is limited and posting 5 messages per day is time-consuming, I apologize if I may not reply all the posts in this thread.

This will not happen because of I am not willing to do it but because of lack of time

Anyone who want to contact me and maybe wants to tell me his/her experience, I am interested, please send me a private mail

Regards

 

[Jono]

The book "Loving What Is" by Byron Katie is very similar to the Zen philosophies.

Interesting read and effective tool, "The Work", where the shift of perspective, on thoughts that are giving us stress, are explained.

 

[Soapy Sam]

Matteo- I have not read the whole thread. This may be relevant , or not.
William Grey Walter, neurophysiologist, AI theoretician, robot builder and general smart cookie researched the effects of pulsed sound and light on brain wave patterns. There have been several devices made based on this work which generate light and sound patterns via diodes in spectacles and normal earphones.
The sellers of these make claims ranging from "It helps you relax and sleep" to "It raises your IQ". I tried one (called a "Mindlab") in the mid 90s.
It did help me sleep. It definitely induced a relaxed mood.

My girlfriend had a different experience. She had practised Transcendental Meditation about a decade earlier, but had not done so in that time. As soon as she donned the glasses and earphones and started the machine running, she immediately experienced what she described as reversion to the trance she had previously achieved after an hour of meditation.

So, if what she felt was what I felt , it seems the relaxed, detached state she called trance can be induced very rapidly in untrained people by stimulation through sound and light.

If this is what zen masters call enlightenment, so be it.

My question of the enlightened remains- "What concrete ideas has this enlightenment actually produced? A better wing design for aircraft? A rational legal system? "
I think they are long on theory, but short on results.

 

[Matteo Martini]

If this is what zen masters call enlightenment, so be it.

My question of the enlightened remains- "What concrete ideas has this enlightenment actually produced? A better wing design for aircraft? A rational legal system? "
I think they are long on theory, but short on results.

Soapy Sam,
in other forums I am attacked as a " Rationalist " and locked into my rationalistic and materialistic view of the World: http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?act=ST&f=21&t=13409&st=0#entry179640

So, I am not a " true believer " of Zen, trust me.

I just believe that it might be true, and it does not help building aircrafts, but maybe lead you to accept inevitable things ( who said " death " ?? ) without despair..

And I do not think that the experience your girlfriend had can be called a " satori ", personal opinion

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

So,?maybe looking after enlightenment is not a good idea after all ..

It's turned out badly for some, yes.

Or alternative explanation, am I skeptic ??, your friend did not get anywhere, just thought he reached something but he ( like many other people maybe ?? ) did not get anywhere

He "got there" in that he had the kind of brain episode that is referred to as enlightenment, a religious experience or what-have-you.

On the other hand he didn't "get there" in that he didn't achieve the lasting mental state of "enlightenment" which the bing-bang brain seizure is supposed to be a gateway to in the Buddhist tradition. He certainly isn't living on rice in a cave wearing a saffron robe or anything.

Then again, maybe that just means he has transcended attachment to enlightenment. Such questions are beyond me.

Your vision about how Jesus realised he was the Messiah is not the same one I have learned from the Catholics and I have been to Church for MANY years.

You'd benefit from reading the Gospels then.

Interesting ( even if not new ) explanation of satori and enlightenment, unfortunately, not supported by any evidence.
So, one opinion among other opinions ..

You can take my opinion or leave it but it's based on a fair bit of personal research, a university course on meditation in eastern religions, and personal acquaintance with a man who has been there and got the t-shirt. Cults, brainwashing and "enlightenment" were pet subjects of mine for a period at university.

Catholics are different from Zen Masters which are different from Muslims ..
All religions and phylosophies say different things and have different paths.
One thing in common, maybe, no evidence ( unless you reach satori or you see the Holy Lady ) ??

They do have that in common, yes.

Interestingly the world-view people come out of a mystical experience with is usually the one they have been coached to hold beforehand. Much like a near-death experience, another kooky brain state, what you experience is to some extent dependant on what you expect to experience. Whereas nobody I know of has been a fervent Christian and then had an experience where they feel the love of Allah.

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Interestingly the world-view people come out of a mystical experience with is usually the one they have been coached to hold beforehand. Much like a near-death experience, another kooky brain state, what you experience is to some extent dependant on what you expect to experience. Whereas nobody I know of has been a fervent Christian and then had an experience where they feel the love of Allah.

Not always, in western literature there is an "extended language" to deal with such states. Often, there are descriptions that become evidently meaningful just when one reaches certain state.

To me this shows that those states are more objective than subjective, so, even when they are open to interpretation (being subjective experiences from the beginning) you still can find what is common in some states.

Furthermore, there are several distinct experiences that are called, generically, "mystical". But I disagree in the aspect of all being equal.

As I have said from the beginning of this thread, some altered states of consciousness (I use this concept on purpose, regarding our easter education) lead us to perceive the world from a different perspective.

But I wouldnt call those perspectives less real than the one we are accustomed to, as you appear to suggest.

 

[Harlequin]

Re: Re: Continuing to mouth off about Zen

So, if the chopstick experience was " the experience of that instant", I had many " experiences of other instancts ", like when my car broke down in the middle of the highway, when I felt down skiing, etc. are they anything special worth talking about ??

Actually, the chopstick experience is related to a sudden lack of thinking - unlike your stranded in highway experience. It can come as a shock when you suddenly go from a very intellectual discussion of "What is enlightenment" to a completely non-thinking state of observation. This quick change draws attention to how your thinking gets in the way of things. It's a method often used in Zen - the loud distracting yell or noise.
Note that you may feel very "in the moment" when you are skiing, or exercising. The difference in those cases is that you are somewhat detached and usually not focussed. It is the pinpoint focus of the snapped chopstick that makes this a good zen story. Not to mention the pithy "I refute you thus" type of answer.

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Re: Re: Re: Continuing to mouth off about Zen

It can come as a shock when you suddenly go from a very intellectual discussion of "What is enlightenment" to a completely non-thinking state of observation.

Yes, exactly, good way to put it.

 

[Matteo Martini]

He "got there" in that he had the kind of brain episode that is referred to as enlightenment, a religious experience or what-have-you.

On the other hand he didn't "get there" in that he didn't achieve the lasting mental state of "enlightenment" which the bing-bang brain seizure is supposed to be a gateway to in the Buddhist tradition. He certainly isn't living on rice in a cave wearing a saffron robe or anything.

Yes, it seems that, at least from my researches, very few people claim they have reaced the non-lasting state, and very very few ( if any ) claimed they have reached the ultimate enlightenement.

So, even the first one is a good result ..

Then again, maybe that just means he has transcended attachment to enlightenment. Such questions are beyond me.

Honestly, they are beyond me as well ..

You'd benefit from reading the Gospels then.

What do yo mean ??

Originally posted by Kevin_Lowe

Interestingly the world-view people come out of a mystical experience with is usually the one they have been coached to hold beforehand. Much like a near-death experience, another kooky brain state, what you experience is to some extent dependant on what you expect to experience. Whereas nobody I know of has been a fervent Christian and then had an experience where they feel the love of Allah.

With this, you seem to discredit the belief that satori has an explanation based on the principal teachings of Zen but it just one among other " kooky brain states " ..

P.S.
if you are a " fervent Christian ", you should feel the love of Jesus, not Allah !!

 

[Matteo Martini]

Not always, in western literature there is an "extended language" to deal with such states. Often, there are descriptions that become evidently meaningful just when one reaches certain state.

To me this shows that those states are more objective than subjective, so, even when they are open to interpretation (being subjective experiences from the beginning) you still can find what is common in some states.

Furthermore, there are several distinct experiences that are called, generically, "mystical". But I disagree in the aspect of all being equal.

As I have said from the beginning of this thread, some altered states of consciousness (I use this concept on purpose, regarding our easter education) lead us to perceive the world from a different perspective.

But I wouldnt call those perspectives less real than the one we are accustomed to, as you appear to suggest.

You have given a clear explanation to your point.

Thanks,

Matteo

 

[Matteo Martini]

Re: Re: Re: Continuing to mouth off about Zen

Actually, the chopstick experience is related to a sudden lack of thinking - unlike your stranded in highway experience. It can come as a shock when you suddenly go from a very intellectual discussion of "What is enlightenment" to a completely non-thinking state of observation. This quick change draws attention to how your thinking gets in the way of things.

Still, I can not draw a line of conceptual separation between the " chopstick experience " and the " skiing experience " ..

What is practically the difference if I feel " strange " because my chopsticks broke or if I feel " strange " after falling down from my skis ??

Please no theoretical answers ..

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Continuing to mouth off about Zen

Still, I can not draw a line of conceptual separation between the " chopstick experience " and the " skiing experience " ..

What is practically the difference if I feel " strange " because my chopsticks broke or if I feel " strange " after falling down from my skis ??

Please no theoretical answers ..

The "level of attention" changes. In the skiing experience, you are aware, in the "chopstick one" you are aware about your being aware. Thats about it

 

[sackett]

Still gassing about Zen

The context of the experience can be significant. Probably most enlightenments (and I have no problem with calling them “weird brain states”) occur to people of religious inclinations and training, and naturally they interpret what happened to them in a religious way. Zen practice at its best seeks to make enlightenment happen in the most uncluttered state possible, hence the common discipline of emptying the mind and simply following your breaths during zazen.

Once as I was walking toward Pawnee Bluffs in eastern Colorado an understanding of the perfection of the world came to me. The blue sky, the strange bluffs, the teeming desert underfoot: everything was right. Without knowing why, I lifted my hiking stick into the air and held it overhead for an instant (or longer? don’t know; doesn’t matter, of course) as I existed. The experience passed. I think about it often, not in hopes of reliving it but in an attempt to understand it.

Now, about the context: Pawnee Bluffs are very, very unlike Japan or China in the seventh century A.D., or a Christian monastery, or an ashram, or anywhere else. They are the American West, where I was born and raised. Did I have a Plains Indian satori? (My stick was decorated with twine and feathers; it looked rather like a medicine wand.) Did I have a pioneer’s satori? Did I have a romantic environmentalist’s satori? Was it satori at all? Those are questions I can ask after the event, and they contribute toward my efforts to intellectualize the memory – but they don’t change the physical nature of that good old weird brain state.

The admirable thing about Zen is that it treats enlightenment as a singular event, valuable (or not) to just one individual. Enlightenment is the most private property there is.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Yes, it seems that, at least from my researches, very few people claim they have reaced the non-lasting state, and very very few ( if any ) claimed they have reached the ultimate enlightenement.

So, even the first one is a good result ..

I guess it's an indication you're heading in the right direction.

What do yo mean ??

The "Jesus story" most christians soak up is an unprincipled mishmash of the four Biblical Gospels. If you actually read the four different versions of Christ's life the Gospels present, you'll see they are actually very different. The earliest Gospel (John? My memory is failing me...) has none of the foofle about wise men, mobile stars, angelic visitations, or virgin birth. Jesus just realises he's the messiah one day.

The versions written later came up with the elaborate version of JCs origin which make up the modern nativity story.

This is just one of the many ways in which the stuff Catholics get fed doesn't bear much resemblance to what's in the Bible. If you ever want a good giggle, try to find the official Catholic explanation of how they figure the Catholic church is inerrant - it's hilarious.

With this, you seem to discredit the belief that satori has an explanation based on the principal teachings of Zen but it just one among other " kooky brain states " ..

I didn't think Zen explained it so much as provided a road map to get there, but I'm no expert.

if you are a " fervent Christian ", you should feel the love of Jesus, not Allah !!

If one or the other existed outside our imaginations you'd think they'd take the time to appear to people who'd never heard of them. They don't seem to want to do that, though.

 

[sackett]

Kevin said, “I didn't think Zen explained it so much as provided a road map to get there, but I'm no expert.”

That’s correct, Kevin, you’re not an expert on Zen, and good for you. Show me a Zen expert and I’ll kick his expert butt. Or anyway I’ll feel like it.

Once there was a Zen master who would talk about many subjects – he was rather a garrulous sort – but never about Zen. Finally someone asked him, “Master, why is it you never talk about Zen?” The master replied, “Because it turns my stomach.”

 

[Teylah]

Hi Matteo,

R.W. Richardson wrote a book and poems about his experiences, which can be found on his website, for free: http://www.psychognosis.net
I have experienced something quite similar, so 'psychognosis' doesn't seem to be completely subjective, but rather an objective phenomenon of the mind. Although I can't confirm everything he claims, I have not been able to find flaws in his logic.

 

[Matteo Martini]

I will read it.
Still I can not understand why, with all these people who claim that have epxerienced satori, no major research has been done on the subject by scientists.
I mean, the kind of research that can be presented in any medical congress or published in any major journal.
Do not get me wrong, I do think that the possibility of the satori may be real.

Maybe because there is no scientific " evidence to study ??
Maybe because neurologists do not believe in this kind of experiences ??
Maybe something has been done and it is me who does not know about it ??
..