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Zen enlightenment

Matteo Martini said:
Maybe because there is no scientific " evidence to study ??
Maybe because neurologists do not believe in this kind of experiences ??
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Those are some of the reasons.

And I think this is also closely related to a curious fact, you have to note that there are thousands of studies about pain, but almost a complete lack of studies regarding happiness. Curious, isnt it?
 
I forgot to mention that Richardson is currently re-writing his book, so perhaps it's best to only read his 'exegesis' chapters for now, which describe his actual experiences. The new version of the book will be a bit smaller than the current one, and will probably be online within a month or so. In chapter 5 he describes what he calls the 'Paradise event', which is the part that's nearly identical to what I've experienced myself, and what I call the 'eternity experience'. The only thing that's different is that I had no sight while in eternity. Both he and I had spontaneous experiences, out of the blue, and neither of us did anything to trigger it. No meditation, rituals, exercise, prayers, fasting or anything like that. It seems that an open mind and a sincere longing to understand reality is all that is needed, though it seems that it's a very rare type of experience.

'Just' a sense of being one with the universe (=what most 'enlightened' people talk about, and which I have experienced as well) can be very profound (much better than any sex or drugs I've ever had!), but it's nothing compared to experiencing eternity.
 
Teylah,
maybe I have not understood well what you said, but you said that you had a kind of " satori " experience without practising Zen or something like that ??
It just " happened " ??
I know that Koestler ( see the link above ) had a kind-of-satori experience while he was in the jail in Malaga but I thought that was an unique experience.

Bodhi Dharma Zen,
I do not know if there is no study on " happiness ", but if there is none maybe it could be because people see " happiness " as the " normal " human condition that needs no study, while " unhappiness " or " depression " is the " disease " to study.
Just an opinion, I am not sure about this, though ..
 
Nope, humans seek happiness, at all costs, because they dont have it. Yet, they seem to focus a lot more in the study of pain than in the study of pleasure.

Oh, BTW, I was driving my car when "THAT" happened! :)
 
Matteo Martini said:
Teylah,
maybe I have not understood well what you said, but you said that you had a kind of " satori " experience without practising Zen or something like that ??
It just " happened " ??
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Yup, the one major experience I had happened just like that, when I was but two years old. I also developed something like a deep meditation technique afterwards, which was like letting my body fall asleep, and letting my mind fall into myself. It made me feel like I was melting and becoming one with the entire universe, which is an absolutely wonderful feeling. Most 'enlightened' people describe exactly that type of experience. I also had a near-death experience, in which something like a cleansing ritual was performed on me, and which felt a lot like the climax I could reach by meditation. But even that was nothing quite like experiencing eternity.

Matteo Martini said:

I know that Koestler ( see the link above ) had a kind-of-satori experience while he was in the jail in Malaga but I thought that was an unique experience.
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People believe many things that don't correspond with reality as is. Most people seem to believe that nothing objective can be learned about subjective experiences, but since I had several different kinds, it seems like there are distincty different types, and the eternity experience is the most profound, by far. I'd love to see more research being done on anomalous phenomena of the mind! It sure is needed, because now there are many 'enlightened' quacks who make people believe in things that are not true, and it messes with peoples minds.
 
Bodhi Dharma,
now that you make me think about the " search for happiness " question, I think that the greatest part of phylosophy, religion, etc. is focused on searching for a path to bring man to happiness or, at least, to relieve him from suffering.
After all, heaven is happiness, is not it ??
Nirvana maybe is not happiness, but a " well-being " condition.

Also, many ideologies like communism, were aimed to produce the " happy and perfect " society; unfortunately they all failed miserably.

Teylah,
you wrote " I'd love to see more research being done on anomalous phenomena of the mind! It sure is needed, because now there are many 'enlightened' quacks who make people believe in things that are not true, and it messes with peoples minds. "
Yes, I do not know much about scientifical research on enlightenment, a part from some works of Freud about the so-called " oceanic feeling ", and some works of Watzlawick and Bateson who treat the subject, but from a theoretical and kind of phylosophical point of view.
And you made a good point here, how do you spell a " genuine " enlightened from a " quack " one ??
You can only " trust " him/her.
But what if he/she really believes that he/she got enlightened but it is not true, how do you spell a " genuine " enlightened from a " quack " one ??
This is a problem, it all goes down to a kind of faith.
Of course, until you do not have a great satori yourself.
 
Matteo Martini,
"how do you spell a " genuine " enlightened from a " quack " one ??"
You don't. There's no scientific proof that it even exists, and mere faith in someone is not the same as knowing. There's also no scientific proof that 'enlightenment', if it indeed exists, can only be achieved by being instructed, guided or taught in one way or the other. The vast majority of people however seems to believe that you have to go to church, mosk, temple and what have you, and be taught.
I don't see why these institutions would be needed. If I could do it just by myself, then that must be the same for all people. Just like a seed doesn't have to go to school to learn how to become a tree.

Freud did not know that the eternity experience exists. His theories are based on imcomplete data.

Bodhi Dharma Zen,
Yes, I can be more specific, but I'll have to write about all my 'weird' experiences AND the effect they had to put it in perspective. If you don't mind waiting I'll write a little autobiography within the next few weeks. Just a few pages, I hope.
 
sackett said:
Once there was a Zen master who would talk about many subjects – he was rather a garrulous sort – but never about Zen.
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Then... how do you know he was a Zen master?

* achieves satori *
 
Teylah said:
Matteo Martini,
"how do you spell a " genuine " enlightened from a " quack " one ??"
You don't. There's no scientific proof that it even exists, and mere faith in someone is not the same as knowing. There's also no scientific proof that 'enlightenment',
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I did not talk about " scientifi proof " I was talking about the lack of scientific studies on the topic " satori "

Teylah said:
if it indeed exists, can only be achieved by being instructed, guided or taught in one way or the other. The vast majority of people however seems to believe that you have to go to church, mosk, temple and what have you, and be taught.
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There is a huge difference between a ( Zen ) temple, a mosk ( Islam ?? ) and a Church.

In a Church you do not strive to reach satori, it is a completely different thing.

Teylah said:
I don't see why these institutions would be needed. If I could do it just by myself, then that must be the same for all people. Just like a seed doesn't have to go to school to learn how to become a tree.
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Interesting opinion.
Still, the vast majority ( maybe all ) of the Zen monks state that you indeed NEED a Master to reach satori.
Or however you want to call " that " experience.
There are very few witnesses of people having this kind of experiences who did not follow a constant Zen practice beforehand.
Indeed, many seeds become trees spontaneusly ( wrong spelling ? ) but it seems that the vast majority of the people do not become enlightened if they do not do the proper training required ( assuming of course that Enlightenemnt exists .. )

Teylah said:
Freud did not know that the eternity experience exists. His theories are based on imcomplete data.
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Maybe they were based on no data !!
You just said that " there's no scientific proof that it even exists, and mere faith in someone is not the same as knowing. "
 
Hi Matteo,

You wrote: "I did not talk about " scientifi proof " I was talking about the lack of scientific studies on the topic " satori "

Fair enough. But I was answering your question: "how do you spell a " genuine " enlightened from a " quack " one ??"
One way to know a genuine 'enlightened' person from a quack one would be, as you rightly said, if you experience "a great satori" yourself, so you would be able to tell when someone else is talking about the same experience. But you have not experienced it (yet).
The other way to know it would be if 'enlightenment' (satori) can be proved scientifically. But there's not even consensus on what 'enlightenment' is, and I don't expect that science will be able to prove it in my lifetime, so there's no way for you to tell a genuine 'enlightened' person from a quack one.

"There is a huge difference between a ( Zen ) temple, a mosk ( Islam ?? ) and a Church."
Christians strive for the holy spirit to be send down to them. Same thing for Muslims, I think, but I could be wrong. That's not so different from satori. Religious/spiritual/mystical experiences existed loooong before any religion or philosophy regarding the nature of reality. Based on these experiences many religions and philosophies were formed. They may look like they're completely different, but they're not. It's the same type of experiences that inspired people to form them.

"the vast majority ( maybe all ) of the Zen monks state that you indeed NEED a Master to reach satori."
Then as far as I can tell, they're all wrong. I would dare to bet that if I'd send them an account of my experiences of 'becoming one with the universe', which I taught myself by deep medition before I had ever heard of meditation, they'd agree that it's satori. And then, if I'd tell them about my experience of eternity, and that 'becoming one with the universe' is nothing quite like it, they'd think I'm an ego-maniac.
 
Teylah said:
The other way to know it would be if 'enlightenment' (satori) can be proved scientifically. But there's not even consensus on what 'enlightenment' is, and I don't expect that science will be able to prove it in my lifetime, so there's no way for you to tell a genuine 'enlightened' person from a quack one.
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Agreed, however, there might be some kind of " sub-product " of satori, I mean, also when you fall in love, that is not " provable " scientifically, however, there are some physiological parameters that change when you are in love.
So. maybe we could have an indirect indication of when satori happens ..
Or, maybe I am just dreaming !!

Teylah said:
"There is a huge difference between a ( Zen ) temple, a mosk ( Islam ?? ) and a Church."
Christians strive for the holy spirit to be send down to them. Same thing for Muslims, I think, but I could be wrong. That's not so different from satori. Religious/spiritual/mystical experiences existed loooong before any religion or philosophy regarding the nature of reality. Based on these experiences many religions and philosophies were formed. They may look like they're completely different, but they're not. It's the same type of experiences that inspired people to form them.
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There is a huge difference !!
Christians and Muslims do not pray for reaching any altered state of consiousness but " to talk to God ".
Whatever that means ..
ASC during Christians are indeed an obstacle for possible canonisation of possible saints ( this a priest in Milan who works in this area told me )
Zen people do not　” pray ", but practise in order to reach this ASC.

Teylah said:
"the vast majority ( maybe all ) of the Zen monks state that you indeed NEED a Master to reach satori."
Then as far as I can tell, they're all wrong. I would dare to bet that if I'd send them an account of my experiences of 'becoming one with the universe', which I taught myself by deep medition before I had ever heard of meditation, they'd agree that it's satori. And then, if I'd tell them about my experience of eternity, and that 'becoming one with the universe' is nothing quite like it, they'd think I'm an ego-maniac. [/B]
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So, you are saying that you practiced and reached satori by practising without anybody` s help or suggestion ??
That is impressive ..
Yes, I would like you to talk with my current Master in order to see what you both think of each other.
If you ever come to Tokyo ..
 
Hi Matteo,

You wrote: "I would like you to talk with my current Master in order to see what you both think of each other."
I would like that too. I've been in touch with several people who claim to be 'enlightened', but never a zen master. At first they're impressed by me, but then, when I claim that experiencing eternity is MUCH more profound than 'becoming one with the universe', they call me delusional, a fundamentalist, or an ego-maniac. One of them even told me that I'm not qualified to know the things that I'm talking about!
I'd be grateful if you could give a letter to your master. I'll write it as soon as you tell me if you're willing to give him my letter. I won't mention the eternity experience though; I'll describe my meditation routine and what 'becoming one with the universe' felt like, and the after effects etc..
I feel that the knowledge of eternity has been lost for thousands of years - not even the Dalai Lama seems to know it. Not that no-one has experienced it since, but when talking about eternity, they'd be considered heretics, frauds, ego-maniacs etc. If your master thinks that 'becoming one with the universe' is satori, then that'd be evidence that the knowledge of eternity has indeed been lost. I could write to him about my eternity experience afterwards.
Please do not mention your master's name on this forum though. He may not like to be involved in my personal research, so it wouldn't be fair to expose his name here.
 
I live in the Netherlands and can't afford a trip to Japan. I only make minimun wage sweeping streets, you see.
 
My master also comes to Italy twice a year, anyway I think it would be better to speak about the subject between us via MP or e mail, if you are interested.
 
Dr Adequate said:
Then... how do you know he was a Zen master?

* achieves satori *
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He had his diploma from the Close Cover Before Striking Institute of Religionism and Tattoo Art. Must I always point out the obvious?
 
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