Zen enlightenment

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

OK, I am already searching ( I am in Tokyo for this ).

But let me say just this: what you have just said are more or less the same words that Catholic pastors use when you tell them you have lack of faith " Just believe and you will see things in a different way " or Muslims " when you make one step torwards Allah, He will make two steps in your direction " ..

No. No, no. Again, no.

You are not reading

Im telling you to see - for - yourself, you dont have to believe anything. Quite different. Isnt it?

 

[sackett]

An honest-to-pete Zen encounter!

Matteo is "going straight ahead." B.D. Zen is hitting him with a stick.

The two of them are doing this in exactly the right way.

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Re: Re: I just happen to be here

Very rational and very effective explanation I think.

No need to talk about Zen to explain this..

If your search continue, please read this post again when you finally get it. You will be delighted. It has nothing to do with what you just said.

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

SNAP!!!

 

[sackett]

Most people go through life experiencing the illusion of the universe perfectly. Everything around them realizes the illusion of things, again perfectly.

Perfection is hard to beat.

Don't think about that.

 

[hammegk]

http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/ew23260.htm

Wittgenstein & Zen ... interesting reading.

Just mentions -- again -- that the words in this thread are meaningless as a means of communicating the concept purportedly being discussed.


NB. post similar to above also erroneously posted in a Philosophy thread. -- Poll: Which Philosophy Do You Follow?

 

[Matteo Martini]

Re: Zen! went the strings of my heart!

There's a school of thought among Zen "practitioners" (and let's remember that Zen is an esoteric form of Buddhism, so the quote marks are appropriate) that holds that the distinction between the enlightened and unenlightened states is just another illusion, and that people are already enlightened, and can go about their lives just as they do. I feel that this stance takes the fun out of Zen -- not that I don't love playing kick-Zen, of course.

No, I wasn't angry with my girl friend that time in the restaurant. She was curious as all get-out about Zen. I just use the episode as an illustration of one of the things Zen is:

SNAP!

1) So, if we are already enlightened, why should we practise Zazen ??

2) Maybe the broken sticks at the restaurant with your girlfriend was just a coincidence ??

 

[Matteo Martini]

Sorry, I didn't get what you were driving at.

Apparently it's quite distinctive. You feel a coolness, often a sense of euphoria or a belief that you have somehow become one with the universe, you lose a lot of your mental habits, and the high lasts for some time. I haven't felt it myself, but I'm a very old friend of someone who has. Apparently if you need to ask whether it has happened, it hasn't.



Different religious traditions give different names to what happens when your brain wigs out after you spend too long chanting rubbish, and the brain doesn't know the difference between an Eastern mantra and a Christian prayer. Christians would call it "a religious experience" or "being stricken with the holy spirit" or something like that, and other people call it satori.

My belief is that the descriptions of what happens, and how you induce the event, are so damn similar between traditions that it's very likely indeed that exactly the same phenomenon has occurred in each case.

As I said (and others agreed) earlier enlightenment is a distinctive, physical event in a squishy, meaty brain. It's not a gateway to Truth, nor does any religious tradition have a monopoly on it.

About your " very old friend " who has experienced " somehow become one with the universe, you lose a lot of your mental habits, and the high lasts for some time ", may I know if he/she is reachable ? Where did he/she practice ?? etc.
This is the kind of info I was looking for ..

About the similarities about Christian prayers and Zazen, I can not see how you compare the two phenomena.
Either God exists or it does not.
Christian believe in God, Zen Buddhists do not.
So ( at least ) one of the two whould be wrong, right ??

And please consider that the Church itself ( I have some experience about this ), when a person who might become Saint says anything about mystical experiences during praying, the Church itself is skeptic about this and values the possibility of self delusion, hysteria and psycho problems, I have been told this by a parish in Milan who works close to the Congregazione delle Cause dei Santi, which is the organism of the Church which manages miracles, Saints, etc.

 

[Matteo Martini]

No. No, no. Again, no.

You are not reading

Im telling you to see - for - yourself, you dont have to believe anything. Quite different. Isnt it?

Bodhi Dharma,
sorry if I do not understand what you are trying to telle me, please be patient.

If I understand correctly you are saying:
1) Stop asking question about what Zen and Enlightenment are, you have to experience it by yourself;
2) Enlightenment can not be " told ", so all the questions I am asking are useless

Did I got it right ??

Now, I am aware of points 1 and 2, but pleaee think about one thing, how do you think one person would feel if, after ten years of hard Zen practice he/she finds out that:
1) His Zen Master is a liar, he never got enlightened, he just plainly lied or
2) His Zen Master turns out to be a crazy person, he does strange things and in the past he had serious psycho-problems or
3) All his friends that practised Zen Buddhism and supposedly " were enlightened " now say that, yes, they were kind of enlightened but they are not sure, maybe it was just self-delusion, maybe it was just a good feeling, etc.

Of course those are not my case, but I think about this before spending a part of your life practising Zazen, right ??

 

[Matteo Martini]

http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/ew23260.htm

Wittgenstein & Zen ... interesting reading.

Just mentions -- again -- that the words in this thread are meaningless as a means of communicating the concept purportedly being discussed.


NB. post similar to above also erroneously posted in a Philosophy thread. -- Poll: Which Philosophy Do You Follow?

hammegk,
nobody ( at least not me ) is trying to explain in words what satori, enlightenemnt and Zazen are.
We are just discussing:
1) If there are faithful witnesses of people having reached satori;
2) Who are those people ( name and surname );
3) If there is any neurological correlation between patterns in brain activity and satori

 

[pmurray]

If you meet Buddha on the Road

There was a book: "If you meet Buddha on the Road, kill him!"

The thrust of it, as I recall, is that Zen enlightenment consists in realising that it is all a scam.

Sometimes, a student will realise that it is all nonsense. Then the master will say, "You have had a very important realisation, but you need to study and meditate for another 3 years to fully attain it".

If the student buys it, then he is not really enlightned after all.

 

[hammegk]

hammegk,
nobody ( at least not me ) is trying to explain in words what satori, enlightenemnt and Zazen are.

After your OP, it seems to me thread drift has already occurred ....

We are just discussing:
1) If there are faithful witnesses of people having reached satori;

Hmm. "Faithful witnesses"? See how my comment applies?

2) Who are those people ( name and surname );

How would you, or anyone ever know that someone else had truly reached enlightenment -- without asking?

3) If there is any neurological correlation between patterns in brain activity and satori

And if there is -- assuming your subject is being truthful -- then what?

 

[Matteo Martini]

After your OP, it seems to me thread drift has already occurred ....

Hmm. "Faithful witnesses"? See how my comment applies?

How would you, or anyone ever know that someone else had truly reached enlightenment -- without asking?

I do not understand your first two points.

Third point: I never said that I want to know if someone has ever reached enlightenemnt without asking, I am well prepare and ready for asking to anybody if he/she has reached enlightenment !!

And if there is -- assuming your subject is being truthful -- then what? [/B]

We know that at least there is " something " beyond anedoctical evidence and we try harder ??

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Bodhi Dharma,
sorry if I do not understand what you are trying to telle me, please be patient.

If your name is not lifegazer, you can count on that!

If I understand correctly you are saying:
1) Stop asking question about what Zen and Enlightenment are, you have to experience it by yourself;
2) Enlightenment can not be " told ", so all the questions I am asking are useless

Did I got it right ??

Yes!

Of course those are not my case, but I think about this before spending a part of your life practising Zazen, right ??

Good. Now, at some point you will need to trust, just like that, in that "enlightment" is something real and, so to speak, palpable. I cant show it to you, there are no ways (yet) to measure "it", and what is worst, there are no particular good reasons to say it is anything but "self delusion".

Now, here you have two or three individuals that have "been there". Im sure there are some more in the place you are. So, next time... please pay more attention!!

SNAP! SNAP! SNAP!

LOOK NOW! FAST! DONT THINK!! What do you feel?

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

OUCH!




That

is

Zen

 

[Matteo Martini]

Good. Now, at some point you will need to trust, just like that, in that "enlightment" is something real and, so to speak, palpable. I cant show it to you, there are no ways (yet) to measure "it", and what is worst, there are no particular good reasons to say it is anything but "self delusion".

Now, here you have two or three individuals that have "been there". Im sure there are some more in the place you are. So, next time... please pay more attention!!

SNAP! SNAP! SNAP!

LOOK NOW! FAST! DONT THINK!! What do you feel? [/B]

Thanks Bodhi Dharma, that` s an answer to my question.
So, like Christian and Muslims we are here back to the good ol` faith.
Nothing wrong with it, as I said before there are already a good number of religions which rely almost uniquely ( may I delete the " almost " ?? ) on blind faith.
Of course, if I will not be one of the " two or three individuals that have been there".
Or, should we change the previous sentence as " of the two or three individuals that, according to some sources, have claimed they have been there"

 

[Matteo Martini]

OUCH!




That

is

Zen

No, that is pain.

 

[sackett]

I have no idea if this contributes to anything

Back in the days when I still watched TV (only public TV, of course) I saw a show about a Zen retreat in California. The attendees all seemed to be well-heeled Bay Area yuppoids. An interviewer asked one of them, a woman in her 40's, "What do you hope to accomplish here?" The woman laughed condescendingly and replied, "Heavens, I hope I don't accomplish anything!"

It takes years of effort to be that much of a smart-ass. I wanted to pour a bowl of green tea over her head - yes, and then break the bowl on her smug, conceited, supercilious noggin.

This was a very good Zen experience. I'm still working on it.

 

[sackett]

Continuing to mouth off about Zen

Matteo: Yes, of course it was coincidence when the chopsticks broke. The Zen part, both for my girl friend and for me, was in the experience of that instant.

About satori: Most, maybe all Zen instructors will tell you that you must continue to examine your experiences of satori, or they will in time become no more than distant memories. Of course, that may be enough for some people. Satori is, after all, an event happening to exactly one person - and you are Lord Buddha, supreme in the realm of yourself.

As should be obvious by now, I'm attracted to the paradoxical in Zen. It's a path that leads away from the false dichotomies to which human thought is prone: this as distinct from that. "No hand, no fist. All one thing," growled the master after slapping one monk and punching another.

No, confrontation with paradox is not enlightenment, it's only an intellectual clarification. It's not the subjective experience of seeing reality. But it's great fun, especially when you're playing with people's heads -- and if you're not playing with people's heads, you're not practicing Zen.

 

[roger]

Sorry, I didn't get what you were driving at.

Apparently it's quite distinctive. You feel a coolness, often a sense of euphoria or a belief that you have somehow become one with the universe, you lose a lot of your mental habits, and the high lasts for some time. I haven't felt it myself, but I'm a very old friend of someone who has. Apparently if you need to ask whether it has happened, it hasn't.



Different religious traditions give different names to what happens when your brain wigs out after you spend too long chanting rubbish, and the brain doesn't know the difference between an Eastern mantra and a Christian prayer. Christians would call it "a religious experience" or "being stricken with the holy spirit" or something like that, and other people call it satori.

My belief is that the descriptions of what happens, and how you induce the event, are so damn similar between traditions that it's very likely indeed that exactly the same phenomenon has occurred in each case.

As I said (and others agreed) earlier enlightenment is a distinctive, physical event in a squishy, meaty brain. It's not a gateway to Truth, nor does any religious tradition have a monopoly on it.

For what it's worth.... I spent quite a bit of time in zazen in my late teens/early twenties. None of this koan nonsense, or irrationalities, just following my breath, and eventually, just sitting. No big deal, nothing to write home about. Anyway, one day I had a motorcyle accident. Could have been a big deal, but other than ending up on crutches for awhile I walked away from it. I was mostly (pychologically) numb for a few hours following it - the trip to the hospital, xrays, all that.

Coming home - BAM! Everything dropped away and I started giggling nonstop. I could go on and on in words but what's the point? I don't say that in any mystical way, but how do you describe love in words, or any feeling/emotion/brain state? Can't really be done. Anyway, so far as I can tell this was what they call a "tip of the tongue" experience - I was still thinking "hey, this is new" - ie I was still observing it happening.

I totally agree that this must be a brain state; after all, we are meat. It was fun, I spent a few weeks just totally engaged in the moment, but over time it faded away. It's really not something I feel I want to chase, or get again. I view it as a different brain state, not a 'better' one, or closer to "truth" or reality, or anything like that. I can see how this sort of thing could be very useful for someone who spends their lives mulling about what could have been, "I can't believe so-and-so said that", all that negative energy. On the other hand, I get a heck of a lot of milage BY mulling over things. For me, it's part of the creative and intellectual process.

I'm not poo-pooing it, as I draw on it all the time. Heck, this morning I started to get irritated because the person in front of me was driving too slow to catch the next light in time, and then I laughed at myself, realized what I was doing, and just sat back and enjoyed my drive.

Zen? Not zen? I don't know, I don't care. What I experienced felt exactly like what all the descriptions of those brain states sound like, and it wasn't too much like I had imagined it was like beforehand. Like Kevin, I think the same brain state is experienced in many cultures. I suspect those that have near death experiences may be shocked into it.

Interestingly, my girlfriend is a neuroscientist, and her institute is involved in this research. They will be studying this phenomen using MRI and other techniques, and will be testing, among others, the Dalai Lama. Stay tuned...