Zen enlightenment

[Matteo Martini]

Hi all,
I am now reading some books about Zen Buddhism and the path to the so-called " Enlightenment ".
This enlightenment, which is at the center of Buddha` s teachings, should be like a glimpse of light that " enlights " our vision of reality: more pratically, this enlightenment, when attained, should leave you with a deeper understanding of things and with no fear of pain and death.
I confess that all the above concepts associated to enlightenment seem pretty vague to me.
However, now I have met in Venice a Zen Master during a conference, and he said that this enlightenment is reachable, that he ( and other people among his disciples ) has reached it just for some seconds and that " it is very clear ".
According to the Zen Master ( he has a temple in Tokyo ), during the short moment in which enlightenment " happens ", you see very clearly the world as " one ", that is, there is no " me " and " you " but you the other people and the enviroinment as " a whole ".
The " I " is an illusion, according to this Zen Master ( however, I do not understand why if I put my hand over a fire the pain would be very real, maybe because I am not yet enlightened ?? ).
In order to reach this " enlightenment " you should abandon your " ego ".
He also made the example of the photo: according to him, when you shoot a photo ( the camera has no "ego ", he said ) of a room full of people you see " one photo ", not different objects and people, while when you are in a " non-enlightened " state you see yourself " here " and the person in front of you " there ".
Other " teaching " of this master is that the Universe is " one ", and when there is life there is no death, pain comes from putting life and death together.
Do not ask me what all the above teachings mean because I am little bit confused.

However, I read that Hungarian writer Arthur Koestler in his book " The invisible writing " wrote about a satori-like experience when he was in a jail in Spain, the story seems straightforward and the author seems convinced that this experience that he supposedly had was not self-delusion: http://users.senet.com.au/~presence/SitePages/koestler.html

So, I would like to know if anybody ( maybe Bodhi Dharma Zen ?? ) is aware of serious researches of neurologists ( please, not the neurotheologists ) about this " satori " experience.
I also contacted the Japanese skeptics but, at the moment, I have received no answer

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

I am now reading some books about Zen Buddhism and the path to the so-called " Enlightenment ".
This enlightenment, which is at the center of Buddha` s teachings, should be like a glimpse of light that " enlights " our vision of reality: more pratically, this enlightenment, when attained, should leave you with a deeper understanding of things and with no fear of pain and death.

Well, it is not exactly like that. The enlightenment could be understood as an altered state of consciousness, that alters the "place" from were you perceive the world. Buddha means: The Awaked One, and he is a reminder about that one can wake up from a dream that we call life, much like a lucid dreamer is awake in his dreams.

It give us a "different" perspective from where we see what we call "reality". What happens is that the "new" point of view is so different from everything we knew that all those things (that we knew) cease to have a meaning. Nothing more should be said. In a way, it is impossible to talk about this without a common frame of reference.

Oh, and pain and death will remain real, but will be not as important as they were for the "western" ego.

I confess that all the above concepts associated to enlightenment seem pretty vague to me.

It is necessarily that way, there are no appropriate concepts to talk about it with meaningful references if those references are beyond "normal" experiences and language.

However, now I have met in Venice a Zen Master during a conference, and he said that this enlightenment is reachable, that he ( and other people among his disciples ) has reached it just for some seconds and that " it is very clear ".
According to the Zen Master ( he has a temple in Tokyo ), during the short moment in which enlightenment " happens ", you see very clearly the world as " one ", that is, there is no " me " and " you " but you the other people and the enviroinment as " a whole ".

Yep, and again, this is meaningless from "normal" consciousness. It is something that one needs to perceive in order to understand it.

The " I " is an illusion, according to this Zen Master ( however, I do not understand why if I put my hand over a fire the pain would be very real, maybe because I am not yet enlightened ?? ).

Well, for an enlightened person the pain will still be there, but not any of the emotions normally associated with it.

In order to reach this " enlightenment " you should abandon your " ego ".

Not really, trying to abandon the ego will just make "it" stronger. What you really need to do is just pay attention to THIS MOMENT (the "Here and Now" that its so malinterpreted by many "new age" believers), and reach "a place" in which there will be no space for an ego.

He also made the example of the photo: according to him, when you shoot a photo ( the camera has no "ego ", he said ) of a room full of people you see " one photo ", not different objects and people, while when you are in a " non-enlightened " state you see yourself " here " and the person in front of you " there ".

I like the analogy. An enlightened individual make no judgments, see no boundaries.

Other " teaching " of this master is that the Universe is " one ", and when there is life there is no death, pain comes from putting life and death together.
Do not ask me what all the above teachings mean because I am little bit confused.

I disagree, of course there is life and death, the ego that makes us "fear" the death will be gone, that much is true, because one realizes that what we call life is "the anomaly", so to speak.

However, I read that Hungarian writer Arthur Koestler in his book " The invisible writing " wrote about a satori-like experience when he was in a jail in Spain, the story seems straightforward and the author seems convinced that this experience that he supposedly had was not self-delusion: http://users.senet.com.au/~presence/SitePages/koestler.html

Well, yes, some phychologists will call such experiences "delusions", but it is normal, they lack the concepts needed to understand those different states of consciousness.

So, I would like to know if anybody ( maybe Bodhi Dharma Zen ?? ) is aware of serious researches of neurologists ( please, not the neurotheologists ) about this " satori " experience.
I also contacted the Japanese skeptics but, at the moment, I have received no answer

There has been countless studies. Long term meditators can produce electroencephalographic responses that are asociated with dream states, when they are fully aware and awake. It is interesting, however, better studies are needed (some are in their way, one courtesy of the one who is writing this )

 

[Matteo Martini]

Bodhi Dharma Zen,
thank you for the informative answer !!
So, let` s define " satori " or " enlightenment " as an altered state of consciousness.
I understand that this altered state of consciousness is a much favorable state, since it seems that normal " human " emotions like desperation, deep anguish, fear of death, depression or so forth are no longer present.
So since our minds when in a non-altered state of consciouness sometimes feel those emotions in a strong way, I think it would be of paramount importance to study if exists, and if so, how to produce this altered state of consciousness.
Do not you think that this will help many and many people that live with deadly diseases, after the loss of a mother or father or spouse ??
And maybe normal people as well ??

So my question was if there is evidence that this ASC exists.
I hope you will not take this sentence of mine as an insult, but after having studied much of the Catholic tradition about miracles and apparitions I have become very skeptic about religion.

As you certainly know, for example, some Zen schools and Zen masters ( of the Soto sect, for example ) do not put much stress into reaching " satori ", being in the loto position is a kind of " satori " for them ( at least this is what a Zen master I visited in Tokyo told me ), and they spend the entire life ( at least this monk did ) sitting in the loto position but experiencing no ASC.
So my opinion is what is the point of doing Zen ??

Sorry if I say what I think straightly.

Another Zen Master told me that you have to pass the " Mu " koan ( the first of a long list of koans ) in order to have the glimpse of this " satori ", according to him some of his disciples passed this Mu koan, I have talked to an Italian who apparently passed this " Mu " koan ( this according to the Master ), however he does not seem so different from what he was before.
He told me that he had a " glimpse of something ", but is this an ASC ??

I know of other temples in the Kamakura area of Tokyo, in one of such temples I read that they do a sesshin ( that is, a five-to-seven-day long session of Zen when you can not talk, shave and you must do zazen practice all the day ) of seven days.
My Master told me that during this sesshin you basically stay in the loto position for the whole seven days ( ! ), that you sleep for three hours staying in the loto position ( ! ), and that you can only move to go to the toilet ( at least this is permitted ! ) and to eat.
When I asked if doing this sesshin you pass the " Mu " koan, he replied that this method was not so effective, and that the masters sometimes say that students pass the " Mu " koan even if they did not really pass it.

Of course all this confusion raised my suspicions.

This Master anyway said that this " satori " is ( or was at least for him ) " very clear, however, I keep my doubts.

So my point is, how do we know that this " satori " is not but a legend ??
I think that after spending seven days sleeping 3 hours per night and keeping your attention fixed in a point on the fllor one meter from you, you COULD feel a little bit strange.
I hope I am not too straightforward with my writing.

And how do you know that this or that Master is effective in helping you reaching this ASC or " satori " ??

Moreover, after 300 years of Enlightenment ( I now speak about Voltaire` s　Enlightenment ), we build cars, planes, we cure diseases, has any neurologic study about this ASC provided insight about the mechanisms that produce satori ??
I mean, why has not Western science provided any independent way to " satori " yet ??
So that we do not have to spend five, ten or more years sitting in the loto position and then discover that we are not able to reach satori or that satori maybe does not even exist ??

Maybe if you can give me a hint of the studies you talk about, I would be grateful, maybe the main ones.

I hope you understand that my passion for this subject is genuine, if I seem a little bit too harsh in my conclusions is because many times I thought that some Truths told by religions ( Catholics for example ) may have a background of evidence when they did not have any.

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

I understand that this altered state of consciousness is a much favorable state, since it seems that normal " human " emotions like desperation, deep anguish, fear of death, depression or so forth are no longer present.

Yet, the wish for such an state is weak among the general public. No one is really interested in leaving their way of life, their appreciated pains and smiles.

So since our minds when in a non-altered state of consciouness sometimes feel those emotions in a strong way, I think it would be of paramount importance to study if exists, and if so, how to produce this altered state of consciousness.

Cant agree more!

Do not you think that this will help many and many people that live with deadly diseases, after the loss of a mother or father or spouse ??
And maybe normal people as well ??

Not in the current teoretical framework, that strongly supports consumism as "the cure for all evil", so to speak. Do you feel bad? its because your neighborhood hava a new car, buy this one and youll be happier!. Speaking broadly people is not ready for this, and might never be ready.

So my question was if there is evidence that this ASC exists.
I hope you will not take this sentence of mine as an insult, but after having studied much of the Catholic tradition about miracles and apparitions I have become very skeptic about religion.

I understand. Well, it is non demonstrable, so far, by current scientific approachs. Besides, no matter how well one can explain it (attempt to explain it this is), it is not reachable with "common" concepts. It is a completely different state of mind, and it is not desirable, as I have said.

Oh, and I have to tell you one thing, Zen it is not a religion, it can be called as an "active philosophical investigation", it does not claim methaphisical beliefs.

As you certainly know, for example, some Zen schools and Zen masters ( of the Soto sect, for example ) do not put much stress into reaching " satori ", being in the loto position is a kind of " satori " for them ( at least this is what a Zen master I visited in Tokyo told me ), and they spend the entire life ( at least this monk did ) sitting in the loto position but experiencing no ASC.
So my opinion is what is the point of doing Zen ??

For some teachers yes. They put all the effort in the method, forgeting the goal of that method. Some say that a proper sitting is more important that the state of mind!

Sorry if I say what I think straightly.

HEY! I thank you for that!

Another Zen Master told me that you have to pass the " Mu " koan ( the first of a long list of koans ) in order to have the glimpse of this " satori ", according to him some of his disciples passed this Mu koan, I have talked to an Italian who apparently passed this " Mu " koan ( this according to the Master ), however he does not seem so different from what he was before.
He told me that he had a " glimpse of something ", but is this an ASC ??

Maybe a tiny one, but thats about it. A real master will live, permanently, on such state. The "small sightings" are for students.

I know of other temples in the Kamakura area of Tokyo, in one of such temples I read that they do a sesshin ( that is, a five-to-seven-day long session of Zen when you can not talk, shave and you must do zazen practice all the day ) of seven days.
My Master told me that during this sesshin you basically stay in the loto position for the whole seven days ( ! ), that you sleep for three hours staying in the loto position ( ! ), and that you can only move to go to the toilet ( at least this is permitted ! ) and to eat.

Seems exaggerated. A retreat of seven days in which you spend 7 hours sleeping, and the rest in meditation, working and eating seems more correct. And there are lots like this last one. I might suggest a three days retreat, for a start. It is a wonderful experience.

When I asked if doing this sesshin you pass the " Mu " koan, he replied that this method was not so effective, and that the masters sometimes say that students pass the " Mu " koan even if they did not really pass it.

It is difficult, but not impossible, to cheat.

This Master anyway said that this " satori " is ( or was at least for him ) " very clear, however, I keep my doubts.

If he doesnt live in "that state" his satori was very weak.

So my point is, how do we know that this " satori " is not but a legend ??

Oh, no. Not at all. But no amount of rethoric can convince you about it. It is something you need to experience by yourself.

I think that after spending seven days sleeping 3 hours per night and keeping your attention fixed in a point on the fllor one meter from you, you COULD feel a little bit strange.
I hope I am not too straightforward with my writing.

Again, I thank you for that. And yes, poor sleeping can cause, by itself, an altered state of consciousness. But what is different about the Enlightment is that this last one continues for the rest of the life of the enlightened. Now, very few individuals, in all human history, have reached that state. This is important to note.

And how do you know that this or that Master is effective in helping you reaching this ASC or " satori " ??

Good question. He cant teach something he doesnt have. To this day, I dont know about any live teacher. Not that he/she doesnt exists, but the last one I knew about was Papaji, who lived in India. He was not a Zen master, btw, but a teacher of Advaita Vendanta.

Moreover, after 300 years of Enlightenment ( I now speak about Voltaire` s　Enlightenment ), we build cars, planes, we cure diseases, has any neurologic study about this ASC provided insight about the mechanisms that produce satori ??

I dont know if there is such a study. Better tools are needed. I cant speak very much about this, but I can tell you that something is in its way!

I mean, why has not Western science provided any independent way to " satori " yet ??

Well, there are certain electronic "tricks" that can help you to reach altered states of consciousness (to not talk about drugs), but nothing as deep and as permament as a true enlightment.

So that we do not have to spend five, ten or more years sitting in the loto position and then discover that we are not able to reach satori or that satori maybe does not even exist ??

As I see it, it takes time, because it is a deep transformation. And again, Enlightment exists, it is as real as everything you think is real. Your question is comparable to a blind person who sincerely doubts that something as seeing exists. No matter how persuasive the arguments can be, if he cant see, he can always doubt. Ah, but the day he sees for the first time (lets asume a cure) the question becomes absurd.

Maybe if you can give me a hint of the studies you talk about, I would be grateful, maybe the main ones.

I can dig them, but it will be the same if you do. All I have is printed papers in some place, but Google can help here. If I have time later I will come back to post some of them.

I hope you understand that my passion for this subject is genuine, if I seem a little bit too harsh in my conclusions is because many times I thought that some Truths told by religions ( Catholics for example ) may have a background of evidence when they did not have any.

 

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Bhodi said:
Again, I thank you for that. And yes, poor sleeping can cause, by itself, an altered state of consciousness. But what is different about the Enlightment is that this last one continues for the rest of the life of the enlightened. Now, very few individuals, in all human history, have reached that state. This is important to note.

It certainly is important. Can you name one or two?

I spent four years in the TM movement. Maharishi Mahesh Yogi was supposedly enlightened. But how would I know?

~~ Paul

 

[Matteo Martini]

Bodhi wrote:
Not in the current teoretical framework, that strongly supports consumism as "the cure for all evil", so to speak. Do you feel bad? its because your neighborhood hava a new car, buy this one and youll be happier!. Speaking broadly people is not ready for this, and might never be ready.

I think capitalism ( without wars for oil !! ) is not so bad after all we have cure for diseases, warm houses in winter, internet and a life expectancy 35 years longer today than 200 years ago.
At least in the so-called developed countries
Of course, capitalism does not cure pain for love, fear of death, and does not give answers to the big questions of life.

Bodhi wrote:

1) I understand. Well, it is non demonstrable, so far, by current scientific approachs. Besides, no matter how well one can explain it (attempt to explain it this is), it is not reachable with "common" concepts. It is a completely different state of mind, and it is not desirable, as I have said.

2) It is difficult, but not impossible, to cheat.

3) Now, very few individuals, in all human history, have reached that state. This is important to note.

So let` s recap
You can not demonstrate that a person has reached satori, there are many different opinions about what satori is, it is possible to cheat and, supposedly, only few individuals in the whole human history has reached that state.
So my question is: how can you rule out the possibility that:

1) There is no ASC that we can call " satori " or " enlightenment and actually no person in history reached any ASC called satori or enlightenment ( Buddha did not exist or, if existed, was not different from you and me )

2) the few people in human history who supposedly have reached this state were only self-deluded people like the people who claim that they have seen the Holy Lady or that they have been abducted by aliens

Bodhi wrote:
Your question is comparable to a blind person who sincerely doubts that something as seeing exists. No matter how persuasive the arguments can be, if he cant see, he can always doubt. Ah, but the day he sees for the first time (lets asume a cure) the question becomes absurd.

The problem is that with your example you assume that somebody, someday, actually could " see ", but as you said earlier, there are no proof that, in the whole human history, even one person reached this " enlightenment ".
So if we have no proof the enlightenment exists, enlightenment and Buddhism can present the same amount ( that is, nothing ) of evidence of the Bible, Astrology and other faiths not supported by evidence

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Just a quick contribution.

Firstly, the brain seizure known as "enlightenment" is not a gateway to Truth or anything like that. It's just a brain state which is different, although it's apparently fun and happy-making and comes as a great relief to people whose habits of mind make them unhappy. It can also cause people to wig out, start cults and generally go nowhere (but most meditative traditions do warn and guard against this kind of silliness).

Secondly, enlightenment events are not at all unique to meditative traditions although such traditions are the only methodology I know of to bring about these enlightenment events controllably and relatively safely. Sufficient stress and/or sensory deprivation can also bring about these brain seizures, and sometimes they just happen to susceptible people more or less out of the blue.

Thirdly, it's not a permanent thing by any means. A few different people, if I recall correctly, have claimed to be enlightened and acted enlightened for a while before falling back into acting like everybody else. Some people quit the guru gig at this point, others milk it.

I think pursuing such an event is a perfectly good hobby, albeit one better suited to footloose singles than to people responsible for holding down a job and feeding a family. The monastic tradition has it's reasons for existing. The career meditators I have met all seemed to be very cool people, and the world would be a much better place (as far as I can tell) if more people were like them.

Then again you can also make the world a better place just by being nice to people, and I have met meditative hobbyists who were loudmouthed twits. So there are no guarantees.

 

[Ryokan]

I highly reccomend the book 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance'. It's not a book about enlightenment, per se, but you understand a bit about how it works after having read the book.

Robert Pirsig is an enlightened being, IMO.

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

So let` s recap
You can not demonstrate that a person has reached satori, there are many different opinions about what satori is, it is possible to cheat and, supposedly, only few individuals in the whole human history has reached that state.
So my question is: how can you rule out the possibility that:

1) There is no ASC that we can call " satori " or " enlightenment and actually no person in history reached any ASC called satori or enlightenment ( Buddha did not exist or, if existed, was not different from you and me )

2) the few people in human history who supposedly have reached this state were only self-deluded people like the people who claim that they have seen the Holy Lady or that they have been abducted by aliens

Oh, no. Thats not what I said. For "westerns", without any training, yes, it is non demostrable. But for any people seriously involved in obtaining it, it is as true as that you are now sitting there in your computer reading every pixel that composes this words. For these individuals the Enlightment have only ONE meaning, it is just that it cant be expressed in words.

AFAIK no one has been able to explain how someone can see "the holy lady". Self delusion is descriptive, but hardly an explanation. Nevertheless, to experience the holy lady, or satan or god has nothing to do with being able to note that there is a different perspective from where "one" can see "the world".

The problem is that with your example you assume that somebody, someday, actually could " see ", but as you said earlier, there are no proof that, in the whole human history, even one person reached this " enlightenment ".
So if we have no proof the enlightenment exists, enlightenment and Buddhism can present the same amount ( that is, nothing ) of evidence of the Bible, Astrology and other faiths not supported by evidence

Oh, but you can see! its very easy. There is nothing unnatural, nor mystical nor paranormal about it. It is a human experience that its achievable by every individual. The problem is that only very, very few individuals want to reach it. Thats why it is difficult to see "from the outside".

As interesting as this could seem, it is pointless to even discuss it. If you are interested try for yourself. Read, learn, talk with some teachers. You will be soon in a place from where you will understand every word Im saying.

 

[Ryokan]

Have you never had a moment where everything seems so clear? Most people have had small glimpses of it.

This is enlightenment.

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Firstly, the brain seizure known as "enlightenment" is not a gateway to Truth or anything like that. It's just a brain state which is different

I agree with that. There is no point in claiming anything paranormal about it. It is a normal brain state that is not reached by most people. Like some "ultraelitist" drug.

Secondly, enlightenment events are not at all unique to meditative traditions although such traditions are the only methodology I know of to bring about these enlightenment events controllably and relatively safely.

Very true.

Thirdly, it's not a permanent thing by any means. A few different people, if I recall correctly, have claimed to be enlightened and acted enlightened for a while before falling back into acting like everybody else.

Here we disagree. There are strong indications that something has changed, forever, in some individuals. You can see it via their writtings or their behaviour. They just act from "a different perspective", so to speak.

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Have you never had a moment where everything seems so clear? Most people have had small glimpses of it.

This is enlightenment.

Thats merely the first step. A real enlightenment is something different.

 

[Ryokan]

Thats merely the first step. A real enlightenment is something different.

Of course. Let me rephrase, then.

This is a glimpse into enlightenment.

ETA : Oh, I've heard the sensation refered to as a 'moment of zen' in English.

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Of course. Let me rephrase, then.

This is a glimpse into enlightenment.

Very true!

 

[Matteo Martini]

Answers to Kevin, Bodhi Dharma and Ryokan

Kevin_Lowe wrote:
" Just a quick contribution .. "
Firstly, the brain seizure known as "enlightenment" is not a gateway to Truth or anything like that. It's just a brain state which is different, although it's apparently fun and happy-making and comes as a great relief to people whose habits of mind make them unhappy "

So I can call falling in love as a kind of enlightenment ? It suits your description, also getting a good job and the good emotion associated to its feelings suites your description, can I call this emotion as a kind of Enlightenment ??
What is the difference from Satori and other " good feelings " that you have in life ??

Ryokan
I did not read the 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance', but I read the Zen and the art of shooting with the arc ( sorry not the exact English name ), the pillars of Zen, and other books, good books of theory but how can you tell if what they say the truth ??
What makes them different from the Bible, from the Coran, from the Buddhist Sutras ..

Boshi Dharma wrote:
AFAIK no one has been able to explain how someone can see "the holy lady". Self delusion is descriptive, but hardly an explanation. Nevertheless, to experience the holy lady, or satan or god has nothing to do with being able to note that there is a different perspective from where "one" can see "the world".

Well, it has been explained in terms of hysteria, by some neurologist I talked to.
And you can argue that the experience of " seeing the Holy Lady " is objectively and not subjectively true or false.
For example, if the Holy Lady says that one monk is innocent from the " crime " of having made one nun pregnant and then you find out that the fact is indeed true, then you do have some evidence that the Holy Lady is not actually appearing to the seers.
Same thing with satori, you can check out if a person has really reached a stable state of mind of tranquility, for example checking out if at the moment of his death he/she is calm and not full of anguish like other people ( sorry for the stupid example, it is the first one that comes to my mind .. )

Ryokan
" Have you never had a moment where everything seems so clear? Most people have had small glimpses of it.

This is enlightenment "

I did have this glimpses when everything is so clear, for example when my ex-girlfriend told me that she was not cheating on me ( i.e. going to bed with other boys ) and all my friends said that she was and I did not believe them and I believed her and then I found out that she was actually cheating on me, in that moment I did see things so clear; is that a small satori ??
Sorry, I am just bring your assumptions to the extreme..

When some priests see the mountains and the blue sky and say that they are certain that there HAS to be a supernatural power ( i.e. a creator ) that made all this beauty, is that another small satori ??

When you have those glimpses that you see that " everything is all right ", is that another small satori ??

So Zen is not necessary, we all have many satoris in our lives.
Unfortunately, we still are full of anguish and despair in some moments of our lives.

Bodhi Dharma wrote:
" The problem is that only very, very few individuals want to reach it. "

Well, not very few, I would say.
There are some tens of millions of Buddhists in this world and several thousands of monks who meditate haevily every day.
So, out of those thousands of monks who dedicate their lives to reach this satori or the enlightenment, is there at least some of them who actually did reach this ASC ??
Do we know some of them ??

Bodhi Dharma wrote:
" As interesting as this could seem, it is pointless to even discuss it. If you are interested try for yourself. Read, learn, talk with some teachers. You will be soon in a place from where you will understand every word Im saying. "

I am now in a Zen temple in Tokyo and I have discussed about this topic with some Zen Masters, including the sensei of this temple.

I still have my doubts that an ASC called satori exists.

 

[Matteo Martini]

Sorry if I may seem some how a little bit too strong in my conclusions, but the satori seems to me a little bit like the " white unicorn ".
Everybody is talking about it, but nobody has seen it !!

Is there any monk or Zen Master who at least claims that he, for one moment or more, has reached this satori ??

 

[Ryokan]

I did not read the 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance', but I read the Zen and the art of shooting with the arc ( sorry not the exact English name ), the pillars of Zen, and other books, good books of theory but how can you tell if they say the truth ??
What makes them different from the Bible, from the Coran, from the Buddhist Sutras ..

I have read 'Zen and the Art of Archery'. A very good book, and one of the first times Zen was experienced by a westerner. How is it different from the bible, etc? Well, in this specific case, it's about a German in Japan, who wishes to experience zen. The book describes how he went about it, and how his teachers taught him. He learned that when he lost all ego, and became one with arrow, bow and target, when all these things blended into one, he became a good marksman. So it's about how you can use the zen mind to focus in different arts. I don't think it's a manual to reach enlightenment in any way. Also, there's nothing supernatural about it, like the bible or koran, it's simply a man writing about his experience with zen.

Also, note that I'm not a zen-freak, I'm more of an orthodox Buddhist. I highly respect zen, though.

I did have this glimpses when everything is so clear, for example when my ex-girlfriend told me that she was not cheating on me ( i.e. going to bed with other boys ) and all my friends said that she was and I did not believe them and I believed her and then I found out that she was actually cheating on me, in that moment I did see things so clear; is that a small satori ??

I don't know, as I have no way of knowing exactly what you experienced. I remember one of my greatest glimpses of the phenomenon we are discussing. It was when reading 'Phaedrus' by Plato.

 

[Francois Tremblay]

Zen is based on the negation of reasoning, the denial of logic. It forces you to integrate in your subconscious something which can be arrived at with reasoning within days. "Enlightenment" saved me from panic attacks, and I didn't need to "meditate on koans" to do it...

I like to compare the Zen method to someone trying to mow his lawn with pocket scissors, while having to stab yourself every time you cut one blade of grass.

And let's not even get started about the holier-than-thou Buddhist attitude against "western values"...

 

[Matteo Martini]

I don't know, as I have no way of knowing exactly what you experienced. I remember one of my greatest glimpses of the phenomenon we are discussing. It was when reading 'Phaedrus' by Plato. [/B]

So, you say that finding out that finding out that my girlfriend is lying to me = satori ??
Or that reading a book of Plato can provide you a little satori ??

Then I have not understood many things about satori ..

I thought it was something different than a sensation you get from reading a good book

 

[Matteo Martini]

Zen is based on the negation of reasoning, the denial of logic. It forces you to integrate in your subconscious something which can be arrived at with reasoning within days. "Enlightenment" saved me from panic attacks, and I didn't need to "meditate on koans" to do it...

And let's not even get started about the holier-than-thou Buddhist attitude against "western values"...

So, you did experience an enlightenment ??