Your thoughts on Astral Projection.

[SirPhilip]

You guys' keep mentioning if I'd like to test astral projection to find out if it's a real event. I'd love too. It's just I don't know exactly how to meditate or get relaxed for an astral projection.
It's true.

Well, as a preliminary to contacting the JREF, I'd be (and I'm sure others as well) happy to set up targets over here if you'd like. We could keep them in place for over a week, allowing you to try to leave your body without the pressure of a controlled setting. Photographs of the target will be sent to several people on the forum participating as judges. If you do manage to pick the targets out beyond a reasonable doubt, then we'll all be very excited - you may be a contender for the real preliminary test, and possibly the prize money, along with a famous distinction of being the first person to substantiate, under proper testing conditions, something not understood, bringing a great amount of closure to countless people.

Until then, let's please try to stay on ground level here, because of the amount of fradulent people claiming they can do this or that, few people here have patience for people who just waltz in and declare the moon. We know you feel it is real - the important thing is, though, do you know how someone can demonstrate it beyond the scope of a lucid dream?

If so, you've perked everyone's interest, and everyone is interested in what you can teach them.

 

[SirPhilip]

You guys' keep mentioning if I'd like to test astral projection to find out if it's a real event. I'd love too. It's just I don't know exactly how to meditate or get relaxed for an astral projection.

It's true.

I would strongly suggest staying awake until you are ready to fall sleep (36+ hours), then laying down or sitting upright and focusing lightly on the goal - the body is far more likely fall asleep this way. Internal commands might also be effective in the event you fall asleep, such as: "Awake mind, sleep body.."

 

[homer]

I've never had any of this Astral Projection , I feel rather left out . If it had happened to me I suppose I should think it was real but then people have had such experiences where they thought they had been abducted by Aliens so I should quickly get skeptical .
Ask yourself which is more likely , Did I really project myself or did I dream it ?

 

[SirPhilip]

I've never had any of this Astral Projection, I feel rather left out.

You've never had a lucid dream? Most are pretty abstract, but rare ones sometimes involve vivid holodeck sex with your celebrity of choice. You wake up quite enthused the
next morning, let me tell you!

 

[SirPhilip]

See, this is where it all gets confusing. What's natural for a fact? Would astral projection go under natural? Perhapes astral projection is natural, but it's impossible to see and study about it. Psychics, mediums, etc, could very well be natural but we don't understand it. Science, afterall, knows that energy cannot be destroyed, only changed in form.

Well Kim, the issue is, there is no actual, measurable form of "energy" that a person inherently posesses, that has been observed to leave the body on death, or during these states (and I'm saying this as a philosophical Daoist). Astral projection is also identical to lucid dreaming, which can be induced by certain chemicals. If these lucid states, where the mind projects semi-abstract representations of the local enviornment, can be caused by ingestion of chemicals, this raises strong doubt the phenomena is dependent on a "bioenergy field".

The website research conclusions at the top of the page talks about everything from near-death-experiences, psychics, afterlife, spirit world realms, time, astrology, psychic Edgar Cayce, etc, in an unbiased format.

Astrology, at least in the common way it is practiced, is proven to be complete nonsense. Please also see Wikipedia's articles on these subjects:

Edgar Cayce
Astrology
Afterlife
Psychic

Most people on this James Randi website, and James Randi himself, believe in the Nature/physical plane and only the Nature/physical plane. The latter is where everything starts going downhill into an argument.

Randi is pro-actively trying to get to the bottom of it all by putting a million dollars in cash on the table. This is a glaring challange, as it plays on the two primary motivations of charlatans:

1) They take money from others.

2) They attempt to convince others something mysterious is true.

So far, nobody has stepped up to the plate in any reasonable way. Randi represents someone with the alarming realization that a lot of people are being taken advantage of. When you consider what pedators like John Edwards and Sylvia Browne pull to garner wealth and fame on the backs of grieving people, an air of impatience is quite restrained and tactful.

I'm skeptical of anything until I've experienced it/done it. I appreciate everyone here saying what they like, even if it sounds cold. I'm just saying what I believe in, too. Maybe we can all learn a lot from each other. Thanks.

I'm not; most conclusions I make are by implication. A small part of me believes in blue hued spirits - because I saw one vividly one time for half a minute - and few common explanations satisfy me. However, the logical inconsistencies in such a thing happening make it highly improbable that it wasn't some type of hallucination. Everything from a bad hair day to a computer crash has a series of tangible links that proceed it. In the latter case, those links are complex, while the former are not. If something doesn't have these, it is not an actual, objective event.

 

[gurugeorge]

Hi everyone, I'm new here. My name is Amy! I have a question, what does everyone think of Astral Projection?

An astral projection (out-of-body experience) is usually a dream or lucid dream... it ends with the feeling of waking up and having falling from the out of the sky or through your bed. To learn more, you can type the name Jonas Ridgeway into Google and find the coolest astral projection website ever. I myself have astral projected before, by accident at times, when going back into a deep sleep in the morning. I'd have lucid experiences outside my physical body by accident. Usually, psychics like Sylvia Browne or John Edward use the word spirit and astral interchangeably. I have a question: Have you guys' ever Astral Projected?

I'd like your opinions on Astral Projection. Thanks.

It's a bit more than a dream or fantasy - it's something like a lucid dream, but while awake. Also much more coherent than a dream, and "real" seeming. Susan Blakemore has written some interesting stuff about it (she had some experiences herself).

 

[Belz...]

See, this is where it all gets confusing. What's natural for a fact? Would astral projection go under natural?

I'm not sure you're listening to people, here. For what it's worth, though, if astral projection were proven to exist, I think it would be considered natural because it certainly could be explained scientifically.

Perhapes astral projection is natural, but it's impossible to see and study about it. Psychics, mediums, etc, could very well be natural but we don't understand it.

Perhaps you'd care to consider ANOTHER explanation: maybe it's all make-believe.

Science, afterall, knows that energy cannot be destroyed, only changed in form.

That doesn't really support your view. If you're talking about death: your body and brain decompose. No lost energy, there.

I sometimes go to a website called Near-Death, and if you would like, you can type Near-Death in Google and get the extremely interesting website.

Somehow, I doubt this.

The website research conclusions at the top of the page talks about everything from near-death-experiences, psychics, afterlife, spirit world realms, time, astrology, psychic Edgar Cayce, etc, in an unbiased format.

You mean, they're skeptics who debunk these things, right ? Right ?

A lot of that spiritual/afterlife stuff on Near-Death sounds believable (similiar to my own experiences), but you would have to accept that there might be more dimensions (realms) to reality then the Nature/physical plane.

Right, and no one here will do that without EVIDENCE.

Most people on this James Randi website, and James Randi himself, believe in the Nature/physical plane and only the Nature/physical plane. The latter is where everything starts going downhill into an argument.

We don't believe in planes of existence.

For instance, the so-called psychic Edgar Cayce, who was very famous for his time, claims he went out-of-body to solve people's medical problems, and that everyone returns to the spirit realms every night during their dreams or meditating. The latter is not, from my own experiences, unbelievable (you know why!).

What circular logic! You use these anecdotes to support your belief in your own "astral projection", and then say that the fact that you've had one supports his assertions!

Perhapes the astral body (or etheric, etc) interacts with the physical body in a mysteries way when dreaming.

Why do you believe that century-old occult myths are more believable than current-day, evidence-driven science ?

Heck, I'd be just as shocked as the next person to see lucid/transeparent spirits walking around, but I don't doubt that anything is possible.

No, girl. LOTS of things are impossible.

I hope everyone here is reading what I write unbiased. I know what I write can sound pro-Nature and pro-spiritual, perhapes it's the first time you've seen that nice change.

Most people are like you, dear. Most people DO believe in unproven, non-existent things.

I'm skeptical of anything until I've experienced it/done it

Don't trust your senses. They deceive you more often than you think.

 

[SirPhilip]

We don't believe in planes of existence.

Come now, not even Flatland? You gotta believe in Flatland.

 

[Outhere]

Luminous Butterflies

In recent days a news flash appeared on the crawl on TV that said the sleep aid Ambien has caused some users to sleepwalk and indulge in binge eating, all unaware.

Some people do this without taking anything. Others have committed acts of violence upon their sleeping partners and once awakened, claim not to remember any of their actions. This has been used as a defense in murder trials.

So What is happening when we have a waking memory of having flown through space and time when we were actually asleep in bed, and at other times we do get up and walk, talk, eat, brain our spouses and have no memory of it?

When I say "we" of course I mean "you." Or "them." I've never had either kind of experience, though I'd love to see that big butterfly in the ambien ads.

 

[SirPhilip]

In recent days a news flash appeared on the crawl on TV that said the sleep aid Ambien has caused some users to sleepwalk and indulge in binge eating, all unaware.

During my highschool years, I had insomnia (mostly from drinking nearly a gallon of caffinated iced tea daily), and I was briefly prescribed Ambien. It's action is not a very pleasant experience. Ambien's effect falls directly into the "hypnotic sedative" catagory, an effective dose is somewhat similer to being drunk, with your vision and sense of time slowing, but what was unsettling was the cognitive impairment, much stronger than alcohol. I didn't notice any strange dreams though, and I fell into a dreamless sleep each time. Regardless, I threw that vile crap out and instead used off the shelf melatonin, which was just as effective, yet completely safe.

 

[Bronze Dog]

I'll just cover a few points:

1. One of the differences between science and pseudoscience is that science can always tell us how it knows things. Pseudoscience has the bad habit of making baseless assertions, or relying on unverifiable experiences recalled with a fallible human memory.

2. Science is very adept at detecting and using the invisible. Right now, my laptop is operating with invisible electical impulses, sending and receiving invisible electromagnetic waves from a router, sometimes to download photos that include non-visible parts of the electromagnetic spectrum.

3. "Nonphysical" is about as nonsensical as "supernatural" when it comes to science: If something has observable effects, it's subject to the scientific method.

4. I rely on the scientific method to analyze my experiences precisely because I can't trust myself to be objective or infallible in my experiences or memories.

5. I've got nothing to fear from the nifty. What I do have to fear is being exploited or harmed when I believe a false thing because it'd be nifty if true.

6. The universe is already pretty nifty: We can gather information about exotic places on the other side of the universe, or very precise details about the smallest things in on a slide. I recall a saying: "A fool seeks excitement in the exotic. The wise seek excitement in the mundane."

I once had a sleep-paralysis-ish experience. I could apparently open my eyes and see my room, like two fuzzy oval pictures piercing through the dream. My mother was asking if I wanted a Blizzard from Dairy Queen. Apparently I couldn't respond outside my mind. Dang sleep paralysis.

 

[thatguywhojuggles]

... I'm skeptical of anything until I've experienced it/done it. ...

Amy,

If you went to a magic show, and the magician did something that seemed impossible, you would have experienced something that seemed like real magic. Now if you had never heard of magicians and their abilities to create the illusion of real magic using trickery, it would be hard not to think that it was real magic. And if you went online trying to find information supporting your conclusion that it was real magic, you would probably find it.

However, you do know about magicians, and you know that there is a physical, earthly explanation for what they do. To you it would seem silly that a person would not consider that the magician was using tricks, and not "real" magic.

Think about that.

 

[trvlr2]

Amy-I had a something event when I was 12. My appendix had burst and I had been under ether(yes, ether) getting it repaired. the event seemed to be me, floating over my body,looking down at my body. Golden thread at my below self's bellybutton and all(connecting the two of us).
I wasn't scared, just curious & very tired. (I kept this to myself for years because I did not want to appear wierder than usual. )The event ended with me coming to consciousness in the recovery room, puking .
I can't say if this was astral projection or a near death experience. Certainly impressed me as being very real. At the time ,I knew nothing of these events. Later, I found out that others had had these experiences, too.
Tried to do the projection stuff & test whether or not it was externally real. I got no confirmation. At this time,I have concluded that my experience was a dream-but very real for me.
Good luck with your confirming tests.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Amy, I think the big difference between me and you is that I'm skeptical of everything, EVEN IF I've experienced it. I'm not so arrogant to believe that my perceptions are infallible.

 

[Ryokan]

Dreams can be VERY real.

I made a thread a while back, about one of my very real dream experiences, a sleeping paralysis with Hag Phenomena.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48181

 

[bruto]

Person is asleep. A new and interesting experience occurs. Person wakes up. No discernible history or evidence of the experience remains, except for the memory itself.

You can call this experience whatever you want, but from a practical standpoint, how does calling it astral projection differ from calling it a dream of astral projection? What does a true experience of astral projection do, in any real way, that a dream of astral projection does not? What criteria would you use to determine the difference? Are there any? If two people are sleeping in adjacent rooms, and one dreams of astral projection, and the other expreriences real astral projection, what is the difference? If you cannot discern any difference, except for what you call it, then it's worthwhile considering the simple and economical, though less entertaining and magical, possibility that it's all the same: a dream.

 

[drfrank]

Dreams can be VERY real.

I made a thread a while back, about one of my very real dream experiences, a sleeping paralysis with Hag Phenomena.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48181

I once tried to put an entire relationship down to that

As for Amy: until you have done some objective testing (identifying cards/dice/cockerel entrails) then it is infinitely more likely that you have simply being having lucid dreams. Moreover, if some of these experiences came after reading the website describing what astral projection should be like then it is possible that they were guided by your expectations.

Again, notice that the above paragraph does include the possibility that I am wrong and you have, indeed, been astrally projecting: as others have pointed out, part of the scientific (and skeptical) point of view is the intrinsic acceptance that we may be wrong about something. However, the only way to determine this is through objective means.

Good luck with the testing

 

[Ladewig]

Good luck with the testing

One word of advice, AmyWilson. If you do decide to test yourself, then don't use an entire deck of cards. The problem with using 52 cards is that people who "see" a 5 of clubs when the actual card is the 5 of hearts or the 6 of clubs often say, "that was mighty close, I'll count that as a hit." It then becomes impossible to calculate the precise success rate. Instead, pick four or five cards such as the 2, 4, 6, and 8 of diamonds and use only those cards.

 

[Dunstan]

I'm telling everyone here flat-out facts.

It may sound dumb, wrong, or odd, but I'm still saying facts.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

It is a fact that you think you have astral projected.

It is not a fact that you have actually done so, because the burden of proof is on you and you have not met it. You haven't explained how you, or anyone else, can distinguish between astral projection and lucid dreams. Several posters have suggested ways you could do so (e.g. books or cards on a shelf that you will "view" when you next project), but you have declined or ignored their suggestions.

 

[Sasha]

Thanks. I respect that.

For instance, the so-called psychic Edgar Cayce, who was very famous for his time, claims he went out-of-body to solve people's medical problems, and that everyone returns to the spirit realms every night during their dreams or meditating. The latter is not, from my own experiences, unbelievable (you know why!). The closest thing we would get to other time-less realms of reality would be when dreaming or lucid dreamng. Perhapes the astral body (or etheric, etc) interacts with the physical body in a mysteries way when dreaming. Edgar Cayce also brings up etheric substance in his biography section on Near-Death. It would be odd and cool indeed to know a spiritual/angel substance (ethereal matter) interacts simultaneously with the Nature/physical plane. Heck, I'd be just as shocked as the next person to see lucid/transeparent spirits walking around, but I don't doubt that anything is possible.

Amy, before you site Edgar Cayce (and so-called psychic was an apt description), do a little more reading about him. Here's a good starting point:
http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mcayce.html