Well, if not that, other odd possibilities would be special configurations of matter, or simply special biological reactions that allow for self-organizing behavior, such as sentience and intelligence, (this was hotly debated in another thread, see for details). Note that I'm not referring to "astral projection" as a means of observation here.
Your thoughts on Astral Projection.
- Thread starter AmyWilson
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HappyCat
Thinker
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Amy, please consider that your mind can imagine anything it wants, and can cause whatever emotions/feelings that it wants during sleep. Can you agree that it is POSSIBLE for your mind to naturally generate these images without going into another dimension, even if you still believe that you are? If you can, then what makes you think that this is not a normal process, but instead an astral projection? If you can not, what is it about the experience that is not possible to come up with in the human imagination?
Also, why do you accept the information on that web page as fact? If you saw another explanation somewhere that also explained everything you experienced, would you be willing to consider it? If not, why is this the only possible explanation?
I am not trying to patronize you, I just don't understand why you believe what you believe.
Also, why do you accept the information on that web page as fact? If you saw another explanation somewhere that also explained everything you experienced, would you be willing to consider it? If not, why is this the only possible explanation?
I am not trying to patronize you, I just don't understand why you believe what you believe.
Bodhi Dharma Zen
Advaitin
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AmyWilson
I just entered the site you recomended. Its sad to even know that so many people are so incredible deluded. Anyway, I guess, to each its own.
I just entered the site you recomended. Its sad to even know that so many people are so incredible deluded. Anyway, I guess, to each its own.
ARubberChickenWithAPulley
Master Poster
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What do you mean a "higher frequency" ??? Frequency is simply the number of occurances of something in a given period of time.
Amy, nobody is doubting you have had the types of dreams you say you have. The problem is that you had a strange dream, then you went online and found someone who described what you experienced, and you accepted their explanation without an ounce of skepticism. Just because you had a strange experience doesn't mean that the cause of the experience is astral projection.
If I put up a webpage describing your dreams, and attributed them to the government shooting mind-control beams into your bedroom, would you believe it, because it is on a webpage? Would that claim be any less credible than that of Astral Projection? After all, at least I can prove that their is a government. And that is more than we can say about the Astral Plane.
eri
Critical Thinker
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Hi Amy,
First of all, welcome to the forum. There are a lot of helpful, knowledgable people here to answer your questions. Many have already replied.
Please remember this is a forum for skeptics. When someone comes up with a claim, we want to see proof of said claim. We'll even help you come up with proof to show us - several people here have suggested ways for you to test your claims. But if you seem unwilling to discuss our questions, or unwilling to test your ability, we're going to have to assume that you're either lying or deluding yourself somehow.
No, you're referencing a website that obviously does not have the same expectations for it's claims that this website does. When using the internet, you'll come across a lot of good, useful information - and a lot of crap. You need to start developing 'crap' filters. 'Facts' are experimentally verifiable. Can you (or anyone who contributed to the website) demonstrate astral projection? If so, they are eligible for the million dollar challenge. Why haven't they applied?
So how 'bout it, Amy? Are you willing to test your claims?
First of all, welcome to the forum. There are a lot of helpful, knowledgable people here to answer your questions. Many have already replied.
Please remember this is a forum for skeptics. When someone comes up with a claim, we want to see proof of said claim. We'll even help you come up with proof to show us - several people here have suggested ways for you to test your claims. But if you seem unwilling to discuss our questions, or unwilling to test your ability, we're going to have to assume that you're either lying or deluding yourself somehow.
I'm telling everyone here flat-out facts.
It may sound dumb, wrong, or odd, but I'm still saying facts.
No, you're referencing a website that obviously does not have the same expectations for it's claims that this website does. When using the internet, you'll come across a lot of good, useful information - and a lot of crap. You need to start developing 'crap' filters. 'Facts' are experimentally verifiable. Can you (or anyone who contributed to the website) demonstrate astral projection? If so, they are eligible for the million dollar challenge. Why haven't they applied?
So how 'bout it, Amy? Are you willing to test your claims?
Altered States
A few years ago I had foot surgery. I was given a combination of Tordol and Valium. I went to a beautiful beach, with warm sand between my toes, a benevolent sun shining down--then I heard the sound of a hammer and bone saw. The sun was the big white light over the operating table. I muttered something about Home Improvement and the doc told the anesthetist to zap me again, and I went completely out. Without being scientific--impossible for me--I assume that the brain can be stimulated to act as a travel agent, simulating astral projection, but when certain centers are de-activated by anesthetics, drugs, blunt instruments, it's just bye bye.
Such subjective experiences are impossible to share or even document. But if you see your hand melt and you haven't been dropping acid, chalk it up to a lucid dream. Unless your hand is missing when you wake up.
A few years ago I had foot surgery. I was given a combination of Tordol and Valium. I went to a beautiful beach, with warm sand between my toes, a benevolent sun shining down--then I heard the sound of a hammer and bone saw. The sun was the big white light over the operating table. I muttered something about Home Improvement and the doc told the anesthetist to zap me again, and I went completely out. Without being scientific--impossible for me--I assume that the brain can be stimulated to act as a travel agent, simulating astral projection, but when certain centers are de-activated by anesthetics, drugs, blunt instruments, it's just bye bye.
Such subjective experiences are impossible to share or even document. But if you see your hand melt and you haven't been dropping acid, chalk it up to a lucid dream. Unless your hand is missing when you wake up.
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
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No, you don't.
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
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No, you don't. You don't know because you haven't based your conclusion on facts. Experiences are fallible. You have to rule out the mundane before you can say it was "astral projection".
logical muse
LogMu
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Dear Amy,
Apart from a couple of curt repsonses, everybody who has responded to you has been courteous and patient, giving their time to offer you some ideas and explanations for what you experienced. This community is like that, helpful, intelligent, thoughtful and willing to help.
What we don't do is exclaim extravagant "me too!"s every time someone posts an anecdote of a paranormal experience they claim happend to them. We will question you on the details, we will question you on alternative explanations, we will point out to you that the burden of proof is yours, not ours, we will provide you with information that you can check for yourself, we will propose an experiment for you to determine if you can really do what you claim to.
You are welcome here and we hope you will stay. This may be the first time that you have encountered a group of people who do not accept extraordinary claims at face value. You won't find us believing in horoscopes, in psychics, in mediums, or in spoon-benders. You will find us to be appreciative and in awe of the remarkable beauty and splendour of the natural world, from ants that live under water to the fibonacci sequence to the doppler effect to new planets and more.
It can be difficult to know how to deal with people like us. It seems that we challenge some people's beliefs, the ones they have invested in quite heavily. Beliefs that people have allowed to define them. We don't do this because we are cynical or curmudgeonly, but because we value truth. For many of us, our lives have more clarity and meaning without the clutter of unsubstantiated and often contradictory beliefs.
By joining this forum, you have taken a step towards unburdening yourself from the constraints imposed by the credulous acceptance of fantasy as reality. I hope that this is the first step of what will become many.
Stay, enjoy our discussions. Think about what we say. Follow the links we offer. Do some reading. Keep an open mind towards to the possibility that there may be no such thing as the paranormal in reality.
Good luck on your journey!
Kindest regards,
LogMu
Apart from a couple of curt repsonses, everybody who has responded to you has been courteous and patient, giving their time to offer you some ideas and explanations for what you experienced. This community is like that, helpful, intelligent, thoughtful and willing to help.
What we don't do is exclaim extravagant "me too!"s every time someone posts an anecdote of a paranormal experience they claim happend to them. We will question you on the details, we will question you on alternative explanations, we will point out to you that the burden of proof is yours, not ours, we will provide you with information that you can check for yourself, we will propose an experiment for you to determine if you can really do what you claim to.
You are welcome here and we hope you will stay. This may be the first time that you have encountered a group of people who do not accept extraordinary claims at face value. You won't find us believing in horoscopes, in psychics, in mediums, or in spoon-benders. You will find us to be appreciative and in awe of the remarkable beauty and splendour of the natural world, from ants that live under water to the fibonacci sequence to the doppler effect to new planets and more.
It can be difficult to know how to deal with people like us. It seems that we challenge some people's beliefs, the ones they have invested in quite heavily. Beliefs that people have allowed to define them. We don't do this because we are cynical or curmudgeonly, but because we value truth. For many of us, our lives have more clarity and meaning without the clutter of unsubstantiated and often contradictory beliefs.
By joining this forum, you have taken a step towards unburdening yourself from the constraints imposed by the credulous acceptance of fantasy as reality. I hope that this is the first step of what will become many.
Stay, enjoy our discussions. Think about what we say. Follow the links we offer. Do some reading. Keep an open mind towards to the possibility that there may be no such thing as the paranormal in reality.
Good luck on your journey!
Kindest regards,
LogMu
Kelly
Philosopher
Nominated.
UrsulaV
Muse
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- Dec 19, 2004
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- 956
Sounds a lot like something that happened to me once, Amy. I was having something of a nightmare, got out of bed, scrabbled for the light switch, fell through the door, and found myself in the hallway going "Um...whoa. That ain't right."
And for several years, I thought it was astral projection, too. I believed it was. Ooo! I can astral project! I've done it! I am in touch with the astral!
Then I started having it happen a lot, and I learned about sleep paralysis.
Sleep paralysis is a condition that afflicts a lot of us occasionally, and some of us a lot. I get it a lot. Most commonly, I think I've woken up, I get up, I walk around, and it's only when I see something in the environment that's completely out of kilter (i.e. "Why is my deck covered in owls?") that I realize I'm still asleep. This is known as a "hypnogogic hallucination" and it can happen four or five times in the course of my waking up if I've got a bad case of it. Occasionally, however, I get sensations of floating or of leaving my body. Both of these are fairly common occurences among people suffering sleep paralysis. (There are a few others, like a sense of an intruder, but thankfully, I hardly ever get that one.)
The thing is, it's really, REALLY easy to believe this is not like dreaming, because the quality of a hypnogogic hallucination can be bloody amazing. I've done LSD and mushroom both, and even though both experiences are called "hallucinations" they're nothing even close. A hypnogogic hallucination can be just about bloody perfect. You feel your body. You feel it MOVING. I can wave my arms and feel them waving, even when they're really tucked down at my sides under the blanket. It's really quite an extraordinary experience. People afflicted by it often say "It wasn't like a dream!" when they try to claim that they're astrally travelling or being abducted by aliens* or whatever. And in that, at least, they're quite correct--sometimes it really isn't like a dream. As subjective reality goes, it's a whole 'nother kettle of fish.
However, I'm not travelling astrally or anything else when this happens. As I understand the science, (and no neurosurgeon am I!) I'm suffering from a brief malfunction of the part of my brain that keeps me from acting out stuff I'm dreaming--I'm still paralyzed, but my brain's mostly awake, and in response to the orders to get up and walk around, it's getting caught in weird feedback loops and generating something like dreaming, so that I think I'm getting up and walking around, but I'm still stuck in bed.
Happens to me about once every two or three weeks. These days, once I realize what's happening, my usual response is "Aw, hell, sleep paralysis AGAIN."
So, I do know exactly what your experience felt like, and I can sympathize. There was a time when I thought it must have been astral travel too, because gee, how cool would that be? A whole astral dimension! And I could go there! Awesome!
But...there really isn't one. It's a sleep disorder, and a pretty common one. Lots of people have it. This is disappointing, I know, and I don't expect you to accept it--I wanted to cling to the notion of astral travel for years myself. However, just because a website on the internet says "There's an astral dimension!" doesn't mean there is one. Ask yourself "How do they prove there's an astral dimension? How can *I* prove there's an astral dimension?" Try to think of a way to test whether or not astral travel is happening. Ask yourself why you should believe this website, in particular, and not, oh, the ones who claim toothpaste is a tool of the Rosicrucian conspiracy. What proof of their claims does this particular website have that makes them credible, other than the fact that you want to believe in astral projection?
If you want to test this for yourself--and I highly suggest you do!--then try one of the tricks various people have suggested with the cards or throwing a pair of dice, or opening a book on top of a high bookcase.
If you don't want to test it for yourself, it's probably for the same reason I never wanted to--I was afraid I'd prove myself wrong, and I really wanted to believe--and I can only offer my sympathy.
If you'd like read more about sleep paralysis, including the common associated sense of an out of body experience, and to help science learn more about sleep paralysis by recounting your experience, http://watarts.uwaterloo.ca/~acheyne/S_P.html has some good information, and an on-line survey form where you can document your experience for their research.
*Oddly enough, I usually find myself squinting in bright light during the course of the hallucination, but waking up, it'll be quite dim. The bright lights are apparently a pretty common symptom, and probably part of the reason for the abductee insistence on that.
And for several years, I thought it was astral projection, too. I believed it was. Ooo! I can astral project! I've done it! I am in touch with the astral!
Then I started having it happen a lot, and I learned about sleep paralysis.
Sleep paralysis is a condition that afflicts a lot of us occasionally, and some of us a lot. I get it a lot. Most commonly, I think I've woken up, I get up, I walk around, and it's only when I see something in the environment that's completely out of kilter (i.e. "Why is my deck covered in owls?") that I realize I'm still asleep. This is known as a "hypnogogic hallucination" and it can happen four or five times in the course of my waking up if I've got a bad case of it. Occasionally, however, I get sensations of floating or of leaving my body. Both of these are fairly common occurences among people suffering sleep paralysis. (There are a few others, like a sense of an intruder, but thankfully, I hardly ever get that one.)
The thing is, it's really, REALLY easy to believe this is not like dreaming, because the quality of a hypnogogic hallucination can be bloody amazing. I've done LSD and mushroom both, and even though both experiences are called "hallucinations" they're nothing even close. A hypnogogic hallucination can be just about bloody perfect. You feel your body. You feel it MOVING. I can wave my arms and feel them waving, even when they're really tucked down at my sides under the blanket. It's really quite an extraordinary experience. People afflicted by it often say "It wasn't like a dream!" when they try to claim that they're astrally travelling or being abducted by aliens* or whatever. And in that, at least, they're quite correct--sometimes it really isn't like a dream. As subjective reality goes, it's a whole 'nother kettle of fish.
However, I'm not travelling astrally or anything else when this happens. As I understand the science, (and no neurosurgeon am I!) I'm suffering from a brief malfunction of the part of my brain that keeps me from acting out stuff I'm dreaming--I'm still paralyzed, but my brain's mostly awake, and in response to the orders to get up and walk around, it's getting caught in weird feedback loops and generating something like dreaming, so that I think I'm getting up and walking around, but I'm still stuck in bed.
Happens to me about once every two or three weeks. These days, once I realize what's happening, my usual response is "Aw, hell, sleep paralysis AGAIN."
So, I do know exactly what your experience felt like, and I can sympathize. There was a time when I thought it must have been astral travel too, because gee, how cool would that be? A whole astral dimension! And I could go there! Awesome!
But...there really isn't one. It's a sleep disorder, and a pretty common one. Lots of people have it. This is disappointing, I know, and I don't expect you to accept it--I wanted to cling to the notion of astral travel for years myself. However, just because a website on the internet says "There's an astral dimension!" doesn't mean there is one. Ask yourself "How do they prove there's an astral dimension? How can *I* prove there's an astral dimension?" Try to think of a way to test whether or not astral travel is happening. Ask yourself why you should believe this website, in particular, and not, oh, the ones who claim toothpaste is a tool of the Rosicrucian conspiracy. What proof of their claims does this particular website have that makes them credible, other than the fact that you want to believe in astral projection?
If you want to test this for yourself--and I highly suggest you do!--then try one of the tricks various people have suggested with the cards or throwing a pair of dice, or opening a book on top of a high bookcase.
If you don't want to test it for yourself, it's probably for the same reason I never wanted to--I was afraid I'd prove myself wrong, and I really wanted to believe--and I can only offer my sympathy.
If you'd like read more about sleep paralysis, including the common associated sense of an out of body experience, and to help science learn more about sleep paralysis by recounting your experience, http://watarts.uwaterloo.ca/~acheyne/S_P.html has some good information, and an on-line survey form where you can document your experience for their research.
*Oddly enough, I usually find myself squinting in bright light during the course of the hallucination, but waking up, it'll be quite dim. The bright lights are apparently a pretty common symptom, and probably part of the reason for the abductee insistence on that.
treble_head
Cupcake Loser Moron
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2005
- Messages
- 10,907
I have had both hypnogogic and hypnapompic hallucinations as well as sleep paralysis on many occasions. Part of the entire reason I am on this message board is because of one of my experiences with sleep paralysis, and the response to my e-mail to Mr Randi to be so prompt and (heh) SWIFT on the subject. http://www.randi.org/jr/022505thank.html#8
It is natural, it is fully explainable and it it is reasonable. Keep a level head about you and you can almost always see that there is a decent explanation for your experience.
I daresay, I'd be nearly lost without this lot helping me out.
It is natural, it is fully explainable and it it is reasonable. Keep a level head about you and you can almost always see that there is a decent explanation for your experience.
I daresay, I'd be nearly lost without this lot helping me out.
Amy, amy I believe YOU!!!!!!
(my apologies in advance for my gramaticall mistakes, please correct me, i want to emprove my english)
see: it was a cold, dark and scary night, i was happily asleep in my comfortable and warm bed. Suddendly i felt something very very outrageous! i wasnt in my bed anymore, and i was dressed with a suit, a very nice suit, blue and stripped, maybe a very nice Armani with a white shirt and a blue Pierre Cardin tie, I ACTUALLY could feel mi feet touching the floor, the sensation of the fabric's roughness, my wet hair and that i was walking through a very strange place: it seemed like a high school auditorium, i was standing amongst 2 young guys, who , by the way, where also dressed with nice suits. Suddendly a very ugly man, with very very brown skin, and a scaring face, he seemed to be a sasquatch's close parient, appeared in front of me, stared directly to my eyes, i think i was shivering at the time, i cant remember it very well. The man introduced himself as a judge and started asking me loads and loads of very hard questions concerning to a science project, i felt that i was loosing the trial and that my life depended on the victory, so i looked at my right side and screamed "!Manuel, ayúdame!!!!!" but Manuel wasnt there, i looked for him with my sight and found him chatting with a pretty girl a steps away from me, then; desperately, i looked in front of me, the judge was waiting for an answer, i started to say, "Disculpe señor juez, los hechos que me enlista no son ciertos, en la memoria puede usted encontrar... ¿señor Juez? ¿señor Juez?" he wasnt paying me any atention, so i glanced to my left side pleading help with my eyes to the other guy but he wasnt either there, he was with manuel and the girl, so in a rage explosion i decided to reprend them very seriously, i couldnt stand with the judge's questions alone, i needed them, so i tried to walk with the sole intention of catching and killing them, BUT SUDDENDLY i felt that my feet werent anymore in the floor, it was like if a very small pipe slided under my feet making me fall down, then i felt a strange sensation: a warm fluid was tripping down my chest so i looked straight down, OH NOOOOO I WAS MELTING DOWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i yelled: "HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!!!!!" then a very very shiny light blinded me as i listened: "¡YA CÁLLATE CABRÓN! ¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡VAS A DESPERTAR A MEDIA CUADRA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
i succesfully astral-projected myself to a very far (and unknown) place!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
naw.... actually i had a pinche nightmare concerning to a national science contest in Monterrey where i didnt win because of my team's sucking speech, then i was so impresed with that particular judge that i had a nightmare with him, i standed up form my bed and walked (fully asleep) to my bedroom's opposite wall and started talking with the curtain, and when i tried to reach my teammates i treaded on a pen on and felt down breaking my nose and started bleeding, at that time i had managed to awake my whole family with my cryings, believe me, they were very very very angry....
have you seen? there's no astral projection, instead of that, there are reallistic dreams, very reallistic, and, mmmm, sonambulism? i dont know the right term (sonambulismo in spanish) try relaxing every night before sleeping, and you wont ever have this dreams anymore.... and overall... keep your bedroom clean, it isnt funny to tread on a forgotten pen....
(my apologies in advance for my gramaticall mistakes, please correct me, i want to emprove my english)
see: it was a cold, dark and scary night, i was happily asleep in my comfortable and warm bed. Suddendly i felt something very very outrageous! i wasnt in my bed anymore, and i was dressed with a suit, a very nice suit, blue and stripped, maybe a very nice Armani with a white shirt and a blue Pierre Cardin tie, I ACTUALLY could feel mi feet touching the floor, the sensation of the fabric's roughness, my wet hair and that i was walking through a very strange place: it seemed like a high school auditorium, i was standing amongst 2 young guys, who , by the way, where also dressed with nice suits. Suddendly a very ugly man, with very very brown skin, and a scaring face, he seemed to be a sasquatch's close parient, appeared in front of me, stared directly to my eyes, i think i was shivering at the time, i cant remember it very well. The man introduced himself as a judge and started asking me loads and loads of very hard questions concerning to a science project, i felt that i was loosing the trial and that my life depended on the victory, so i looked at my right side and screamed "!Manuel, ayúdame!!!!!" but Manuel wasnt there, i looked for him with my sight and found him chatting with a pretty girl a steps away from me, then; desperately, i looked in front of me, the judge was waiting for an answer, i started to say, "Disculpe señor juez, los hechos que me enlista no son ciertos, en la memoria puede usted encontrar... ¿señor Juez? ¿señor Juez?" he wasnt paying me any atention, so i glanced to my left side pleading help with my eyes to the other guy but he wasnt either there, he was with manuel and the girl, so in a rage explosion i decided to reprend them very seriously, i couldnt stand with the judge's questions alone, i needed them, so i tried to walk with the sole intention of catching and killing them, BUT SUDDENDLY i felt that my feet werent anymore in the floor, it was like if a very small pipe slided under my feet making me fall down, then i felt a strange sensation: a warm fluid was tripping down my chest so i looked straight down, OH NOOOOO I WAS MELTING DOWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i yelled: "HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!!!!!!!!" then a very very shiny light blinded me as i listened: "¡YA CÁLLATE CABRÓN! ¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡VAS A DESPERTAR A MEDIA CUADRA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
i succesfully astral-projected myself to a very far (and unknown) place!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
naw.... actually i had a pinche nightmare concerning to a national science contest in Monterrey where i didnt win because of my team's sucking speech, then i was so impresed with that particular judge that i had a nightmare with him, i standed up form my bed and walked (fully asleep) to my bedroom's opposite wall and started talking with the curtain, and when i tried to reach my teammates i treaded on a pen on and felt down breaking my nose and started bleeding, at that time i had managed to awake my whole family with my cryings, believe me, they were very very very angry....
have you seen? there's no astral projection, instead of that, there are reallistic dreams, very reallistic, and, mmmm, sonambulism? i dont know the right term (sonambulismo in spanish) try relaxing every night before sleeping, and you wont ever have this dreams anymore.... and overall... keep your bedroom clean, it isnt funny to tread on a forgotten pen....
Thanks. I respect that.
I, too, like Nature. Infact, I had to study the laws of Nature in San Francisco college just a few years ago. Our 200-people plus-class talked about everything from the mountains, the stars, trees, to the fight-or-flight reaction natural enemy animals get when they walk near each other. It was very interesting.
According to Webster's dictionary, science means: "Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena."
See, this is where it all gets confusing. What's natural for a fact? Would astral projection go under natural? Perhapes astral projection is natural, but it's impossible to see and study about it. Psychics, mediums, etc, could very well be natural but we don't understand it. Science, afterall, knows that energy cannot be destroyed, only changed in form.
I sometimes go to a website called Near-Death, and if you would like, you can type Near-Death in Google and get the extremely interesting website. The website research conclusions at the top of the page talks about everything from near-death-experiences, psychics, afterlife, spirit world realms, time, astrology, psychic Edgar Cayce, etc, in an unbiased format. It's just their major research conclusions on the subjects. A lot of that spiritual/afterlife stuff on Near-Death sounds believable (similiar to my own experiences), but you would have to accept that there might be more dimensions (realms) to reality then the Nature/physical plane. Most people on this James Randi website, and James Randi himself, believe in the Nature/physical plane and only the Nature/physical plane. The latter is where everything starts going downhill into an argument.
For instance, the so-called psychic Edgar Cayce, who was very famous for his time, claims he went out-of-body to solve people's medical problems, and that everyone returns to the spirit realms every night during their dreams or meditating. The latter is not, from my own experiences, unbelievable (you know why!). The closest thing we would get to other time-less realms of reality would be when dreaming or lucid dreamng. Perhapes the astral body (or etheric, etc) interacts with the physical body in a mysteries way when dreaming. Edgar Cayce also brings up etheric substance in his biography section on Near-Death. It would be odd and cool indeed to know a spiritual/angel substance (ethereal matter) interacts simultaneously with the Nature/physical plane. Heck, I'd be just as shocked as the next person to see lucid/transeparent spirits walking around, but I don't doubt that anything is possible.
I hope everyone here is reading what I write unbiased. I know what I write can sound pro-Nature and pro-spiritual, perhapes it's the first time you've seen that nice change. I'm skeptical of anything until I've experienced it/done it. I appreciate everyone here saying what they like, even if it sounds cold. I'm just saying what I believe in, too. Maybe we can all learn a lot from each other.
Thanks.I less than three logic
Graduate Poster
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2005
- Messages
- 1,463
I think it is a good idea to continue to be skeptical about things even if you’ve experienced it. It is important to remember that our senses and perceptions are not foolproof; in fact they are quite easily manipulated. This is especially true when your brain is in altered states of consciousness (e.g. when sleeping/dreaming, under the effects of drugs or alcohol, lack of oxygen, etc.).I'm skeptical of anything until I've experienced it/done it. I appreciate everyone here saying what they like, even if it sounds cold. I'm just saying what I believe in, too. Maybe we can all learn a lot from each other.
You should try to get some objective proof that you’ve left your body and are experiencing the world around you. I think the card idea presented by Ladewig might work for you.
Take a card and place it face up on a tall cabinet or bookshelf, somewhere where you can’t see it. Since you can’t control your ability as you’ve said, just leave the card up there until the next time you experience the phenomenon. Then during the projection climb or fly up there and see what card it is. Try this a few times; see if you can get 3 out of 5 correct.
Now remember, you can’t look at the card you’re placing up there. Don’t look at the remaining deck either, since you could figure out what card is missing if you do. Merely wanting to believe and cheating yourself won’t produce any gratification.
treble_head
Cupcake Loser Moron
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2005
- Messages
- 10,907
Yeah. that would be odd and cool. However, there is no real-world evidence for such.
Nope. Not the first time by any means.
I don't attempt to sound cold or disbelieving. I'm only asking you to look at your experiences within the realm of fact, not belief.I'm skeptical of anything until I've experienced it/done it. I appreciate everyone here saying what they like, even if it sounds cold. I'm just saying what I believe in, too. Maybe we can all learn a lot from each other.
This may sound odd to you, but people cannot trust their own feelings. If I had trusted my own feelings, I would be convinced that I had been abducted by aliens. I would be giving countless dollars to people who helped me believe that idea. I'd be lost.
Please even look at the idea that your own mind has fooled you. It fools us all. It is very easy to look at our own experiences and believe them as truth. Truth is not found from what you have seen or heard or felt. It comes from what can be measured. My younger cousin believes that he is being followed by automobile executives. It's not true. It's not real, but it's what he feels. It doesn't make it truth.
Every time I speak honestly in this way, I feel like I'm trying to recruit someone into our evil cult of critical thinking. I don't meant to sound that way. Follow your own way of thinking, by all means. If I have a purpose of writing a response like this, it is to try to warn you against the path of least resistance.
I'm done, I feel. Go your way or don't. It won't affect me much. I'd like to meet a new critical thinker, but for the love of whomever, guide your own self. Far be it from me to tell you how to feel.
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Nap, interrupted.
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2001
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- 19,141
Amy, could you list three things that we could tell you or show you or have you demonstrate to yourself that would convince you that you are just dreaming and not actually projecting your consciousness outside your body?
~~ Paul
~~ Paul
UrsulaV
Muse
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2004
- Messages
- 956
It would indeed be odd and cool. It would also be odd and cool to know that there was an ammonite civilization existing at the time of the dinosaurs, shells packed with tentacly nautaloid intelligences. However, there probably wasn't one, because while the universe is full of all kinds of odd and cool things, it is under no obligation to produce things merely because you or I think they'd be really neat.
Alas, Amy, this is not the first time. I don't think it's even the hundredth time. It happens with dreary regularity, I fear, that nice, intelligent, otherwise apparently rational people show up who cling to a particular irrational belief. In the case of astral projection and whatnot, it's really easy to see how they get there--there's a specific class of sleep disturbances that really feel like you're out of your body, and for a long time, people groped for an explanation, and science simply wasn't advanced enough to know the mechanism. So astral projection got very popular in the literature, as an explanation, and it was a very pretty, fun explanation that made people feel very spiritual and special when it happened to them. Is it any wonder that people are clinging to this explanation still, even now that our understanding of sleep and the brain has advanced and we DO understand pretty much what's goin' on? People want to feel like they're special. "I am in touch with a mystical other dimension!" is much more fun than "I'm under stress, sleeping on my back, and my brain had a brief glitch waking up."*
As for being unbiased--well, consider meeting us halfway here, Amy. A lot of people have said "Okay, let's assume you ARE out of your body--here's how you could test it." They don't neccessarily believe you're astrally projecting, but they're willing to consider that they're wrong, in order to devise a test. Can you extend the same courtesy? Consider for a moment that maybe you AREN'T astrally projecting, and that you really just suffered from a hypnogogic hallucination. If so, how would you find a way to check that? (As you can't replicate the experience on demand, I'd suggest starting by checking the literature of known, similiar sleep disorders to see if there's anything similiar, but maybe you have some other ideas for experiments.) Are you open-minded enough to accept that maybe your ideas are wrong, as well?
*The majority, although nothing like all, of cases of sleep paralysis occur while stressed, and while sleeping on one's back.