You Want More Proof (2)?

It gets better

Let Iacchus do this:

Now, on a map of the world or someplace like that, draw a line from Groom Lake, another line from Istambul, and another line from Macchu Picchu in Argentina. Keep drawing.

You see the fiendish complexity of it all? Wait, I already said that, I mean the fiendish SIMPLICITY of it all?

My head hurts.
 
You want less proof?

Why do Numerologists limit themselves to simple mathematical operations?

Just look at all the nonsense we can get by using only simple arithmetic. Imagine the vast volumes of nonsense we could get if these "number experts" had gone further than 5th grade Math!

Just once, I'd like to see a modulus, a factorization, a factorial, a cube and/or cube root (or any power other than square), and even a derivation and an integration.

Think about it! If you can use a Numerological function to find that 479 = Dennis, could we find the derivative of 479 with respect to Dennis to discover the Rate of Change of Dennis, and perhaps predict the date of Dennis's demise? Could we integrate the function and discover the area between Dennis and zero and calculate his weight or volume? Imagine the possibilities!

I suppose the "simple math" is the inherent bonus of Numerology? Fun with numbers, with none of the hard stuff? Arbitrarily explain the mysteries of the Universe using only +-*/!! You don't even have to observe My Dear Aunt Suzie!
 
Re: You want less proof?

Acrimonious said:
Why do Numerologists limit themselves to simple mathematical operations?

Just look at all the nonsense we can get by using only simple arithmetic. Imagine the vast volumes of nonsense we could get if these "number experts" had gone further than 5th grade Math!

Just once, I'd like to see a modulus, a factorization, a factorial, a cube and/or cube root (or any power other than square), and even a derivation and an integration.

Think about it! If you can use a Numerological function to find that 479 = Dennis, could we find the derivative of 479 with respect to Dennis to discover the Rate of Change of Dennis, and perhaps predict the date of Dennis's demise? Could we integrate the function and discover the area between Dennis and zero and calculate his weight or volume? Imagine the possibilities!

I suppose the "simple math" is the inherent bonus of Numerology? Fun with numbers, with none of the hard stuff? Arbitrarily explain the mysteries of the Universe using only +-*/!! You don't even have to observe My Dear Aunt Suzie!
Did you bother to read the first part of this thread? Where I speak about the badge and the number 479 and the vision I had? These were two separate instances, totally beyond my control which, if they hadn't happened we wouldn't be discussing it here.

Also, did it ever occur to you that if you make things too complicated then only the "learned" would know? And what good is there in that?

Isn't this essentially what the Roman Catholic Church accomplished by printing the Bible in Latin (speaking it in Latin as well) as a means to keep the masses in the dark and under their controL?

What good is faith if you can't base upon something simple that you can understand?
 
Re: Re: You want less proof?

Iacchus said:
Did you bother to read the first part of this thread? Where I speak about the badge and the number 479 and the vision I had? These were two separate instances, totally beyond my control which, if they hadn't happened we wouldn't be discussing it here.

No, we'd be having a slightly different discussion about some other coincidence in your life. Now, what would be really odd, is if there were *no* coincidences in your life, that would be a serious statistical anomoly.


Also, did it ever occur to you that if you make things too complicated then only the "learned" would know? And what good is there in that?

We do do our best, but it is complicated. Anyone who wishes to study any of area of science can, its not blocked off, or purposely made more complicated.

I'm not sure what you mean for science to do, stop making advances beyond anything a 12 year old can understand? Should we make a serious effort for even the layperson to understand the black magic of high speed digital design?


Isn't this essentially what the Roman Catholic Church accomplished by printing the Bible in Latin (speaking it in Latin as well) as a means to keep the masses in the dark and under their controL?

Well lets see, is science doing anything to purposely keep society in the dark? Or is it an open and transparent process.

However, your process is closed, we can never know by what way the number 42 was chosen to mean one thing, and the number 8 chosen to mean another.


What good is faith if you can't base upon something simple that you can understand?

Blind faith is worthless.
 
Did you bother to read the first part of this thread? Where I speak about the badge and the number 479 and the vision I had? These were two separate instances, totally beyond my control which, if they hadn't happened we wouldn't be discussing it here.

Yes, I read that thread. My point has obviously gone right over your head.

Also, did it ever occur to you that if you make things too complicated then only the "learned" would know? And what good is there in that?

You have a very refined prejudice towards the intelligent.

Nobody is "making things" complicated. Nobody sits down and says "Gee, parallax is too easy to understand. Let's sit down and make the equation more cryptic so only WE know how to estimate distances to far-away celestial objects."

Things get complicated because THINGS ARE COMPLICATED. Science and Scientists only observe the world and model it. Any complication that arises is because what is being observed is complicated.

I have 2 apples. I eat 1 apple. How many apples do I have left?

The math for this is simple.

A Uranium-238 atom has a percent probability of absorbing a neutron and becoming Uranium-239. It will then give off a beta particle and become Neptunium-239. This will give off yet another beta particle and become Plutonium-239. Pu-239 can then be used as fissible material to produce energy and neutrons that will create more Pu-239.

The math for this is complicated.

Tell me how Numerology would explain the Nuclear cycle of a Breeder Reactor? Would it count up all the letters in URANIUM and then add its atomic weight? Add the number of Neutrons, but arbitrarily stick a zero in the middle of the number? How does Numerology model an emitted beta particle? Divide the result by b+e+t+a? How do you decide what b, e, t, and a stand for?

Massage the numbers all you want to get the result, it's still meaningless. Perform the same functions on U235, and you'll get nothing even resembling a fission reaction.

Is my point clear? Or is this too intelligent for you? Should I dumb it down, so everyone will understand?

Numerology is arbitrary. Values are assigned specifically to help towards the goal. Mathematical operations are chosen and performed in an order specifically to help towards the goal. In Numerology, you already know outcome before you begin choosing arbitrary numbers. The fact that you were able to pick the right numbers after a try or two, and massage those numbers to reach the goal only proves you can do elementary arithmetic (or that you can use a calculator), not that you have discovered a mystical connection between what you started with, and what you predictably (since it's exactly what YOU WANTED TO END UP WITH) ended up with.

The "equations" and "relationships" you come up with work only for the one specific pairing you worked to "prove." Using your example, if I were to give you my work badge #, you could not perform the same operations you used on your own badge to get my name. Want to try?

Badge # 229. My name is in my JREF Board Account. Any moderator will be able to congratulate you on your success, should you prove me wrong.

On the other hand, the Sciences use math to explain how things work. If I know my mass, and my acceleration, I can tell you how much force is behind my movement. The equation works for anyone of any mass, of any force or acceleration. It works, and it works every single time.

Isn't this essentially what the Roman Catholic Church accomplished by printing the Bible in Latin (speaking it in Latin as well) as a means to keep the masses in the dark and under their controL?

Here's that prejudice again. Did you ever stop to think that perhaps you live your comfortable life because Intelligent People have shared their findings with the rest of the world? Central Heating? Air Conditioning? Internal Combustion Engine? Refrigeration? Cell phones? The Internet?

Yep, all created by Intelligent People who shared their work. No, numerology didn't help create a single one of them.

What good is faith if you can't base upon something simple that you can understand?

Oh, I see. This isn't about science. This is about faith. I'm going to go out on a limb here and predict that your Faith is going to explain just as much about the real world has Faith has for everyone since the Man first stood up on his hind legs: Absolutely Nothing. But I'm sure it'll sure make you feel all warm and gooey and make you sleep well at night.
 
Acrimonious said:

Yes, I read that thread. My point has obviously gone right over your head.
Or, perhaps it's through your misrepresenation of what I'm trying to say that I am unable to reply?


You have a very refined prejudice towards the intelligent.
No, I just have a problem with "bias" in general.


Nobody is "making things" complicated. Nobody sits down and says "Gee, parallax is too easy to understand. Let's sit down and make the equation more cryptic so only WE know how to estimate distances to far-away celestial objects."
Why complicate things if it isn't necessary? Why hack to pieces the whole of creation, indeed to where it's longer recognizable, and then have the audacity to insist, "Where is God now?"


Things get complicated because THINGS ARE COMPLICATED. Science and Scientists only observe the world and model it. Any complication that arises is because what is being observed is complicated.

I have 2 apples. I eat 1 apple. How many apples do I have left?

The math for this is simple.
Simply amazing!

A Uranium-238 atom has a percent probability of absorbing a neutron and becoming Uranium-239. It will then give off a beta particle and become Neptunium-239. This will give off yet another beta particle and become Plutonium-239. Pu-239 can then be used as fissible material to produce energy and neutrons that will create more Pu-239.

The math for this is complicated..
So what? Give me the apples instead!


Tell me how Numerology would explain the Nuclear cycle of a Breeder Reactor? Would it count up all the letters in URANIUM and then add its atomic weight? Add the number of Neutrons, but arbitrarily stick a zero in the middle of the number? How does Numerology model an emitted beta particle? Divide the result by b+e+t+a? How do you decide what b, e, t, and a stand for?
And why would I need it to explain something which is a complete waste of resources? There is nothing about it which is necessary here.


Massage the numbers all you want to get the result, it's still meaningless. Perform the same functions on U235, and you'll get nothing even resembling a fission reaction.

Is my point clear? Or is this too intelligent for you? Should I dumb it down, so everyone will understand?
The point being that numerology may be useless for what otherwise might be deemed a useless endeavor? There are lots of people who don't agree with the "usefulness" of nuclear power by the way.


Numerology is arbitrary. Values are assigned specifically to help towards the goal. Mathematical operations are chosen and performed in an order specifically to help towards the goal. In Numerology, you already know outcome before you begin choosing arbitrary numbers. The fact that you were able to pick the right numbers after a try or two, and massage those numbers to reach the goal only proves you can do elementary arithmetic (or that you can use a calculator), not that you have discovered a mystical connection between what you started with, and what you predictably (since it's exactly what YOU WANTED TO END UP WITH) ended up with.
The number was already there, as was the symbolism, through the vision I had.


The "equations" and "relationships" you come up with work only for the one specific pairing you worked to "prove." Using your example, if I were to give you my work badge #, you could not perform the same operations you used on your own badge to get my name. Want to try?

Badge # 229. My name is in my JREF Board Account. Any moderator will be able to congratulate you on your success, should you prove me wrong.
I don't know? If I had a vision about it, perhaps I could? ;)


On the other hand, the Sciences use math to explain how things work. If I know my mass, and my acceleration, I can tell you how much force is behind my movement. The equation works for anyone of any mass, of any force or acceleration. It works, and it works every single time.
Hurray!


Here's that prejudice again. Did you ever stop to think that perhaps you live your comfortable life because Intelligent People have shared their findings with the rest of the world? Central Heating? Air Conditioning? Internal Combustion Engine? Refrigeration? Cell phones? The Internet?
And what about all the enviromental hazards we generate in the process, strictly because we live in a "material world" and everbody's got to have all these things?


Yep, all created by Intelligent People who shared their work. No, numerology didn't help create a single one of them.
I think you've given "yourself" a little too much credit here. ;)


Oh, I see. This isn't about science. This is about faith. I'm going to go out on a limb here and predict that your Faith is going to explain just as much about the real world has Faith has for everyone since the Man first stood up on his hind legs: Absolutely Nothing. But I'm sure it'll sure make you feel all warm and gooey and make you sleep well at night.
What is faith, if not a system of beliefs?

While let me ask you this, do you have a lot of "faith" in what science can do with nuclear power?
 
Iacchus said:
Or, perhaps it's through your misrepresenation of what I'm trying to say that I am unable to reply?

Umm..right, both he and I have asked some pretty basic questions, why would you be unable to reply?


No, I just have a problem with "bias" in general.

OK, and what bias are you attacking here?


Why complicate things if it isn't necessary?

Humanity has an innate desire to understand how things work. Also, current theoritical physics is (and has been) based on the desire to simplify. A good example of is the unification of the electrical and magnetic forces.


Why hack to pieces the whole of creation, indeed to where it's longer recognizable, and then have the audacity to insist, "Where is God now?"

When and where has "creation" been hacked to peices? Nothing has been hacked to pieces. Scientists are understanding the beauty of "creation". Nothing is being torn apart, nothing is being made unrecognizable (unless you can explain to me how). And scientists do not look up and ask "Where is god". People point, and go, "look, over there, its God", scientists look up and go "where?"


So what? Give me the apples instead!

That calculation is pretty simple compared to the ones that were worked out that make the operation of your computer possible. However, if you'd rather just have some apples than a computer...WHY DIDN'T YOU JUST BY SOME APPLES?


The number was already there, as was the symbolism, through the vision I had.

Here comes the interesting part.

A) Show your vision was anything more than a dream.

B) If the symbolism is already there, how come other people with visions do not see the same symbolism.

C) Show me any example of any usefullness of any vision beyond that of a dream.


And what about all the enviromental hazards we generate in the process, strictly because we live in a "material world" and everbody's got to have all these things?

In this case, the benifits have far outweighed any negatives. Not only that, science understands more about the weather, ecosystem, solar system, etc. In the future, we will be able to stop ice ages, divert asteroids, and other things I haven't currently thought of.

Anyway, man is perfectly capable of doing intense enviromental damage without any science, what do you think happened to the mammoths?


I think you've given "yourself" way too much credit here. ;)

Really, then tell me what great discoveries numerology has made?


While let me ask you this, do you have a lot of "faith" in what science has done with nuclear power?

Why, yes, I do. Nuclear power is becoming a clearer, and clearer alternative to things like strip mining coal, dumping greenhouse gas, burning trees, using slave labor, etc, etc. And beyond that, science is studying a different type of nuclear power that is even safer and cleaner than the modern reactors of today.


You seem to have a great distrust of science and medicene, but instead, attribute truth to your dreams (which really can be analyzed any way you want).

Why the distrust of science? Why is it such a boogy man to you?
 
Why complicate things if it isn't necessary? Why hack to pieces the whole of creation, indeed to where it's longer recognizable, and then have the audacity to insist, "Where is God now?"
This is exactly what science tries NOT to do. Occham's Razor? Parsimony? Ever heard of them?Science gets complicated because it IS necessary.

So what? Give me the apples instead!
Again, my examples went over your head. The apples are simple because it is a simple interaction. Nuclear physics is complicated because it is a complex interaction. Dismissing it as unnecessary because you do not understand it is textbook Argument from Ignorance.

And why would I need it to explain something which is a complete waste of resources? There is nothing about it which is necessary here.
and
The point being that numerology may be useless for what otherwise might be deemed a useless endeavor? There are lots of people who don't agree with the "usefulness" of nuclear power by the way.
I think you have a gross misunderstanding of what a nuclear breeder reactor is, if you think it is a waste of resources. However, your ignorance of physics is not the topic of the thread. The fact that these statements are a straw man and a non-sequitor, is.

I have asked you to explain how numerology would explain a nuclear reaction that is occuring right this minute, simultaneously, at multiple different locations around the world. That is all. Not if you agreed with the use of Uranium as fuel, not if you agreed that nuclear power is a clean alternative to coal. Not if you agreed that nuclear power was "useful."

Only to show if your methods could explain how the process worked, more simply and efficiently than the complex math used by nuclear physicists.

Argue all you want about "usefulness," I don't care. The nuclear energy cycle exists, is explainable by science, is actually CURRENTLY HAPPENING, yet you cannot explain it.

Would it have helped if, instead, I broke down something "natural" and "useful" like the perpetual fusion reaction of the sun that sustains all life on the surface of the Earth? Or would you dodge with yet another logical fallacy?

The number was already there, as was the symbolism, through the vision I had.
This is, again, exactly my point. You started out with two numbers: A beginning and an end. It doesn't matter where the numbers came from, just that you had a preconceived notion that they were related (Hmmm it's the same number on both the badge in real life, and the badge in the "vision," I wonder how you could have possibly decided they were related?) You then stuck 4, 7, and 9 in simple geometric shapes, put the numbers counting to 10 around them (including 4 twice for no apparent or even explained reason), and called it "The Ten Commandments."

Then you made 479 = "Dennis" by arbitrarily dropping the 7, arbitrarily choosing greek, and arbitrarily assigning values to 4 and 9, to get... well, gibberish in greek, but it's no problem since you then arbitrarily flipfloped it back to English to get what you wanted.

The fact that you were successful shows you can do creative arithmetic. Congratulations. You've achieved roughly the same stellar insight as a 3rd grader playing with a calculator, who discovers that the number 35009 spells "GOOSE" when you turn the thing upside-down.

I don't know? If I had a vision about it, perhaps I could?
How does the "vision" count into it? The "vision" simply has your work badge on a string going to the top of a pyramid.

The numerology you perform is on the work badge NUMBER, not the vision. Here, I'll do the work for you:

Your number: 479
My number: 229

Next, you put a whole bunch of pictures together, do completely arbitrary math, then IGNORE THE RESULTS (so I'm just going to skip those steps), and focus on this:

By the way in Greek, the letter Delta is the 4th, and the word "Ennis" means the 9th. All of which corresponds to the name "Dennis" which, happens to be my first name
479: toss out the 7.
4 = Delta
9 = Ennis
Delta+Ennis = Dennis

The same, exact operations for my work badge number:

229: toss out the middle "2":
2 = Beta
9 = Ennis
Beta+Ennis = Bennis

Well, sir, my name is certainly not Bennis. Do you want me to see if Upchurch will drop by to verify?

On the other hand, the Sciences use math to explain how things work. If I know my mass, and my acceleration, I can tell you how much force is behind my movement. The equation works for anyone of any mass, of any force or acceleration. It works, and it works every single time.

Hurray!
Truly, Hurray! Science can do the same operations multiple times on different variables and get the correct answer. Numerology cannot. Hurray for Science, indeed!

And what about all the enviromental hazards we generate in the process, strictly because we live in a "material world" and everbody's got to have all these things?
Yet another logical flaw. I'm only showing science has created the things that allow you to live your comfortable, modern life, and pointing out that numerology cannot do the same thing.

You retort about environmental hazards. This is a Tautology. You didn't want to create anything with numerology anyway, right? It might hurt the environment? Yeah... that's the ticket... Numerology CAN, it's just that numerologists want to live solely on 14th century technology?

I think you've given "yourself" a little too much credit here.
Says the guy who trumpets loudly and repeatedly about his awesome, mind-blowing revelation that he can make 479 = "Dennis" and 1,2,3,4,4(woops),5,6,7,8,9 = "The Ten Commandments"

What is faith, if not a system of beliefs?

While let me ask you this, do you have a lot of "faith" in what science can do with nuclear power?
The fact that the Cordova, Illinois Nuclear Power Plant provides my area with energy, and every single day when I flip the light-switch on, the lights DO turn on, is not a matter of faith. It's reality.

I'll take nuclear-powered lightbulbs over faith-power lightbulbs any day of the week.
 
RussDill said:

When and where has "creation" been hacked to peices? Nothing has been hacked to pieces. Scientists are understanding the beauty of "creation". Nothing is being torn apart, nothing is being made unrecognizable (unless you can explain to me how). And scientists do not look up and ask "Where is god". People point, and go, "look, over there, its God", scientists look up and go "where?"
We now have all this scientific jargon to replace that which used to be fundamentally human, for example the existence of a spirit or soul, to where we can't even spell out our existence except in terms of science which, is essentially external as opposed to internal ... And where do you think human values come from, well certainly not from the material world!

Yes, and when the scientists look up and go "where?" It's because they haven't begun to fathom the mysteries of the soul, and to know that the soul is like a mirror which, reflects God in everything that it sees.

Indeed it's pretty plain to a lot of people that science has overlooked something here.


That calculation is pretty simple compared to the ones that were worked out that make the operation of your computer possible. However, if you'd rather just have some apples than a computer...WHY DIDN'T YOU JUST BY SOME APPLES?
Actually I don't care much for apples, and there may very well come a day when I trash my computer. The novelty began to wear off a long time ago.


Here comes the interesting part.

A) Show your vision was anything more than a dream.

B) If the symbolism is already there, how come other people with visions do not see the same symbolism.

C) Show me any example of any usefullness of any vision beyond that of a dream.
Can something only be considered real if it's viewable under the microscope? The only thing that makes anything "real" in this life is the fact we have a soul which, when you get right down to it, is the only point of reference any of us has.


In this case, the benifits have far outweighed any negatives. Not only that, science understands more about the weather, ecosystem, solar system, etc. In the future, we will be able to stop ice ages, divert asteroids, and other things I haven't currently thought of.

Anyway, man is perfectly capable of doing intense enviromental damage without any science, what do you think happened to the mammoths?

Really, then tell me what great discoveries numerology has made?
Actually I couldn't say, because the only form of numerology I'm familiar with -- if you want to call it such? -- is the numerology I've developed here.


Why, yes, I do. Nuclear power is becoming a clearer, and clearer alternative to things like strip mining coal, dumping greenhouse gas, burning trees, using slave labor, etc, etc. And beyond that, science is studying a different type of nuclear power that is even safer and cleaner than the modern reactors of today.
Isn't that something?


You seem to have a great distrust of science and medicene, but instead, attribute truth to your dreams (which really can be analyzed any way you want).
More of a problem with those who adminster it I think.


Why the distrust of science? Why is it such a boogy man to you?
Yes, and what do we accomplish by all this (scientifically minded) knit-picking? Except perhaps to take away what otherwise may have been a perfectly valid experience. Yes, this is the problem I and many others "seem" to have.
 
Iacchus said:
We now have all this scientific jargon to replace that which used to be fundamentally human, for example the existence of a spirit or soul, to where we can't even spell out our existence except in terms of science which, is essentially external as opposed to internal ...

As humans, we have NEVER been able to comprehend our existence. Science is bringing us closer to that goal then we have ever been. Just because you believe you have explained your existence with religion, doesn't mean you have. A lie is a lie, it is not the truth.

Do you think it was wrong for science to explain the process of volcanos and thus, "destroy" the notion that the volcano itself is a god?


And where do you think human values come from, well certainly not from the material world!

Human values come from us being human (so they come from the material world), otherwise, they wouldn't be human values. What reasoning do you have that shows that values do not come from the material world?


Yes, and when the scientists look up and go "where?" It's because they haven't begun to fathom the mysteries of the soul, and to know that the soul is like a mirror which, reflects God in everything that it sees.

If the soul has an effect on the material world, then that effect can the quantified and studied. I'm sure scientists would delight in studying such a thing. They look up and say "where?" because people claim evidence and effect, but there is none.


Indeed it's pretty plain to a lot of people that science has overlooked something here.

Really, well, why don't you remedy that then? Set up an experiment that others can repeat, write a paper, and get it published.

Discovering something that modern science has overlooked is the dream of any scientist.


Actually I don't care much for apples, and there may very well come a day when I trash my computer. The novelty began to wear off a long time ago.

How about the novelty of clean running water? Is that worn off yet? Or what about a bounty of food?


Can something only be considered real if it's viewable under the microscope?

No, a microscope is only one tool, in fact, many things are considered to be real even though we can only examine the things effects.

However, if someone tells me that something is real, I'm not going to just believe them, I want some answers, I want some evidence.


Did you know that the only thing that makes anything "real" in this life is the fact we have a soul which, when you get right down to it, is the only point of reference any of us has.

Thats you ASSUMPTION, so it's no good in an argument. None of us have a soul.


Also, you didn't address any one of the questions, so I'll ask them again:

A) Show your vision was anything more than a dream.

B) If the symbolism is already there, how come other people with visions do not see the same symbolism.

C) Show me any example of any usefullness of any vision beyond that of a dream.





Actually I couldn't say, because the only form of numerology I'm familiar with -- if you want to call it such? -- is the numerology I've developed here.

OK, then I'll fill you in, numerology has done nothing usefull, it has predicted no dates, no events, no lottery tickets, your numerology is equally as useless.


Isn't that something?

Given that I live near the largest nuclear reactor in the free world, one that probably ships power all the way to oregon, ya, it is something. We can see the direct effects of science, study, and understand them for ourselves. I have never seen *any* effects of spirituality.


More of a problem with those who adminster it I think.

Really, and what is their problem?


Yes, and what do we accomplish by all this (scientifically minded) knit-picking?

Quite a bit. I have many friends and family who are alive today because of this nit-picking. Heck, I think I'd be the only one left in my family. Look at the "magic" box in front of you, it exists because of this nit-picking.


Except perhaps to take away what otherwise may have been a perfectly valid experience.

How is an experience that is a lie, valid? Personally, I'll take truth over lie anyday.


Yes, this is the problem I and many others "seem" to have.

You have avoided the question:

Why the distrust of science? Why is it such a boogy man to you?
 
Acrimonious said:

This is exactly what science tries NOT to do. Occham's Razor? Parsimony? Ever heard of them?Science gets complicated because it IS necessary.
I don't need science to have a vision of God or, interpret it for that matter.


Again, my examples went over your head. The apples are simple because it is a simple interaction. Nuclear physics is complicated because it is a complex interaction. Dismissing it as unnecessary because you do not understand it is textbook Argument from Ignorance.
Yes, why do things have to be so complicated?


and

I think you have a gross misunderstanding of what a nuclear breeder reactor is, if you think it is a waste of resources. However, your ignorance of physics is not the topic of the thread. The fact that these statements are a straw man and a non-sequitor, is.
I know enough about it to know that there are other "clean" alternatives.


I have asked you to explain how numerology would explain a nuclear reaction that is occuring right this minute, simultaneously, at multiple different locations around the world. That is all. Not if you agreed with the use of Uranium as fuel, not if you agreed that nuclear power is a clean alternative to coal. Not if you agreed that nuclear power was "useful."
That would sort of like be asking science to explain the usefulness of God now wouldn't it?


Only to show if your methods could explain how the process worked, more simply and efficiently than the complex math used by nuclear physicists.
So what?


Argue all you want about "usefulness," I don't care. The nuclear energy cycle exists, is explainable by science, is actually CURRENTLY HAPPENING, yet you cannot explain it..
It doesn't make my bowel movements any smoother does it? Which, are smooth enough thanks!


Would it have helped if, instead, I broke down something "natural" and "useful" like the perpetual fusion reaction of the sun that sustains all life on the surface of the Earth? Or would you dodge with yet another logical fallacy?
Who cares?


The fact that the Cordova, Illinois Nuclear Power Plant provides my area with energy, and every single day when I flip the light-switch on, the lights DO turn on, is not a matter of faith. It's reality.

I'll take nuclear-powered lightbulbs over faith-power lightbulbs any day of the week.
Like I said, there are other alternatives. ;)
 
Iacchus said:
I don't need science to have a vision of God or, interpret it for that matter.

But how can you know the vision is from god, and not from your own mind?


Yes, why do things have to be so complicated?

They aren't, the rules that govern such a reaction are actually *very* simple. It's just when you have 238 electrons spinning around in a single atom alone, you end up doing a lot of calculation. Its like this, divide 4/24. Pretty easy, right? Now divide:

3675356291270936062618792023759228973612931947845036106320615547656937452547443078688431492068926649504871727226106159490917711597767365639481293908850963856115984810304444763175962178574185975388318964333860488897764303092540594692247754/787393520508515502018645753946137986450400482052455332807393009717553693843068505038248077590483249720004630403006850770629870296168380845095316293480472659690228269263064527347607654110091334150096694276202995670183312447052083865302124

Did it get complicated for you? The rules are still simple though, but I've upped the digits to 238 per term.


I know enough about it to know that there are other "clean" alternatives.

Really, how about you name a cleaner alternative for producing 1.3 gigawatts of electricity.


That would sort of like be asking science to explain the usefulness of God now wouldn't it?

So what?

It doesn't make my bowel movements any smoother does it? Which, are smooth enough thanks!

Who cares?

A lot more avoiding from Iacchus...
 
Acrimonious said:

This is, again, exactly my point. You started out with two numbers: A beginning and an end. It doesn't matter where the numbers came from, just that you had a preconceived notion that they were related (Hmmm it's the same number on both the badge in real life, and the badge in the "vision," I wonder how you could have possibly decided they were related?) You then stuck 4, 7, and 9 in simple geometric shapes, put the numbers counting to 10 around them (including 4 twice for no apparent or even explained reason), and called it "The Ten Commandments."
Actually you might get more out of it if you go the chapter I reffered you to ... http://www.dionysus.org/x0801.html

Like I said it all began with the badge with the number 479, and the vision I had of it later.


Then you made 479 = "Dennis" by arbitrarily dropping the 7, arbitrarily choosing greek, and arbitrarily assigning values to 4 and 9, to get... well, gibberish in greek, but it's no problem since you then arbitrarily flipfloped it back to English to get what you wanted.
Yes, the Greek letter "delta" means the 4th, just as the letter "d" in English is its counterpart. The name Dennis is Greek in origin anyway and comes from Dionysus. And by the way, did you know that the first two letters in Dionysus are "D" and "i" which, are the 4th and 9th letters? Just another coincidence? Hey I'm not saying it isn't. However, when these "little coincidences" continue to add up, doesn't it suggest the possibility of some sort of "phenomenology" which may lie behind it?


The fact that you were successful shows you can do creative arithmetic. Congratulations. You've achieved roughly the same stellar insight as a 3rd grader playing with a calculator, who discovers that the number 35009 spells "GOOSE" when you turn the thing upside-down.
Oh, you mean when spelled backwards! ;)


How does the "vision" count into it? The "vision" simply has your work badge on a string going to the top of a pyramid.

The numerology you perform is on the work badge NUMBER, not the vision. Here, I'll do the work for you:

Your number: 479
My number: 229

Next, you put a whole bunch of pictures together, do completely arbitrary math, then IGNORE THE RESULTS (so I'm just going to skip those steps), and focus on this:


479: toss out the 7.
4 = Delta
9 = Ennis
Delta+Ennis = Dennis

The same, exact operations for my work badge number:

229: toss out the middle "2":
2 = Beta
9 = Ennis
Beta+Ennis = Bennis

Well, sir, my name is certainly not Bennis. Do you want me to see if Upchurch will drop by to verify?
There's a little bit more to it than that -- obviously -- but nice try anyway. ;)



Truly, Hurray! Science can do the same operations multiple times on different variables and get the correct answer. Numerology cannot. Hurray for Science, indeed!
Does science have the means by which to mesure quality, as opposed quantity? You see this is where numerology and the "rating system" comes in (and hence value).


Yet another logical flaw. I'm only showing science has created the things that allow you to live your comfortable, modern life, and pointing out that numerology cannot do the same thing.
And what is life without meaning?


You retort about environmental hazards. This is a Tautology. You didn't want to create anything with numerology anyway, right? It might hurt the environment? Yeah... that's the ticket... Numerology CAN, it's just that numerologists want to live solely on 14th century technology?
No, numerology can be a useful tool for those wishing to work with those things requiring the need to be introspective.


Says the guy who trumpets loudly and repeatedly about his awesome, mind-blowing revelation that he can make 479 = "Dennis" and 1,2,3,4,4(woops),5,6,7,8,9 = "The Ten Commandments"
Oh, the befuddlement of the scientific brain anyway!
 
The Short Version

Iacchus's basic argument:

I don't care that science consistently does a better job explaining the "Real World," and has consistently improved the quality of life for all mankind. I'd rather stick to a set of illogical beliefs based on simple numerology that explain as much as I want explained, in the simplest terms (regardless of them being completely arbitrary), that makes me happy and warm and fuzzy inside.

This makes you one of several things.

1) Lazy. You want to explain the Real World, but you just can't be bothered to actually learn what is necessary to do so. Instead, you just Make Crap Up that suits you.

2) Prejudiced. You want to explain the Real World, but you absolutely hate materialists / scientists / intelligent people. Instead of using what Science has already figured out for you, you just Make Crap Up that suits you.

3) Ignorant and Self-Centered. If you don't understand it or it's not your idea, it's not right, simply because you don't understand it and it's not your idea. You have Crap you Made Up that suits you better.

4) Hypocritical. You deny everything science has accomplished for you, or pass it off as trivial or unimportant, yet you continue to utilize these accomplishments for your own comfort because you are unable to provide alternatives using the Crap you Made Up. Similarly, even though the Crap you Made Up has only made arbitrary, pre-planned intangible, personal "connections," you revere it and advocate it over the tangible gains of Science that you enjoy.

Actually, looking at this list, I'd say you are a combination of all 4.

I'm done with this thread. You do not make discussion. You only advocate the Crap you Made Up and when faced with simple questions and simple examples, you dance around them with a laundry list of logical fallacy.

Until Numerology can explain something objective, worthwhile, and can do it consistently with the same operators, it is nothing more than subjective, made-up, crap.

-Acrimonious (Still Not Bennis)
 
Re: The Short Version

Acrimonious said:
Iacchus's basic argument:

I don't care that science consistently does a better job explaining the "Real World," and has consistently improved the quality of life for all mankind. I'd rather stick to a set of illogical beliefs based on simple numerology that explain as much as I want explained, in the simplest terms (regardless of them being completely arbitrary), that makes me happy and warm and fuzzy inside.
Yes, but why ascribe a sense of permanence to that which is only temporary -- the "material world?" And how would you know it was real after you die? Or what would be the point? Or, how would you know the whole thing is not just an illusion while you're here?


This makes you one of several things.

1) Lazy. You want to explain the Real World, but you just can't be bothered to actually learn what is necessary to do so. Instead, you just Make Crap Up that suits you.

2) Prejudiced. You want to explain the Real World, but you absolutely hate materialists / scientists / intelligent people. Instead of using what Science has already figured out for you, you just Make Crap Up that suits you.

3) Ignorant and Self-Centered. If you don't understand it or it's not your idea, it's not right, simply because you don't understand it and it's not your idea. You have Crap you Made Up that suits you better.

4) Hypocritical. You deny everything science has accomplished for you, or pass it off as trivial or unimportant, yet you continue to utilize these accomplishments for your own comfort because you are unable to provide alternatives using the Crap you Made Up. Similarly, even though the Crap you Made Up has only made arbitrary, pre-planned intangible, personal "connections," you revere it and advocate it over the tangible gains of Science that you enjoy.

Actually, looking at this list, I'd say you are a combination of all 4.
I notice you haven't left open the possibility that I may in fact be telling the truth?


I'm done with this thread. You do not make discussion. You only advocate the Crap you Made Up and when faced with simple questions and simple examples, you dance around them with a laundry list of logical fallacy.
This is just your way of saying we're not in agreement then ... That's fine.


Until Numerology can explain something objective, worthwhile, and can do it consistently with the same operators, it is nothing more than subjective, made-up, crap.

-Acrimonious (Still Not Bennis)
In which case you will probably never get it. ;)
 

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