Yellow Bamboo: The notarized agreement
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Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
This document is meaningless. On the Commentary, Randi indicates that a protocol for a prelim test was drafted and agreed to, but that Yellow Bamboo tried to change conditions after the fact. The "video" we're given demonstrates that the conditions of the test did not match those outlines in the "waiver". Thus, the waiver's legitimacy is a non-issue - whether it is real or forged has no bearing on Yellow Bamboo's claim.
Rolfe
Adult human female
I think Patricio's right.
While it's not impossible that the entire thing could be fabricated (Randi's signature isn't exactly a state secret), ceo-esq has some good points regarding the apparent authenticity of the last page, the one we can pretty much see all of. The envelope looks genuine too. However, the envelope just demonstrates that something was received by Alvin Donovan from the JREF, and since the last page contains only the signatures and stamps but no actual text of whatever agreement it referred to, it doesn't prove a lot.
The last page looks very like the end of the standard application form for a preliminary test, very similar to the form appearing on the web page at www.randi.org/research/challenge.html. I don't think it's been printed directly from that, but I'll bet it is the last page of a properly notarised preliminary application, and that may be what was in the envelope pictured in the first place. We do know that such an application was indeed made at one time, so that's no surprise.
The middle page could be wholly fabricated, but in fact the wording is quite similar to what Randi says Joko Tri was instructed to do, so maybe there were such instructions in writing.
I think they've shuffled up bits of two different documents as a window-dressing job. Amateurish. Anyone who was genuine would have photographed each page in its entireity, separately and legibly.
I really can't see that anyone could regard this as a serious attempt to blag their way to the million bucks. It's just too silly. I think it's just a publicity stunt, plus people getting off on having everybody talking about them.
I think Randi's probably enjoying dragging out the story and having people who really need to get a life making speculations on the Forum and so on.
Rolfe.
While it's not impossible that the entire thing could be fabricated (Randi's signature isn't exactly a state secret), ceo-esq has some good points regarding the apparent authenticity of the last page, the one we can pretty much see all of. The envelope looks genuine too. However, the envelope just demonstrates that something was received by Alvin Donovan from the JREF, and since the last page contains only the signatures and stamps but no actual text of whatever agreement it referred to, it doesn't prove a lot.
The last page looks very like the end of the standard application form for a preliminary test, very similar to the form appearing on the web page at www.randi.org/research/challenge.html. I don't think it's been printed directly from that, but I'll bet it is the last page of a properly notarised preliminary application, and that may be what was in the envelope pictured in the first place. We do know that such an application was indeed made at one time, so that's no surprise.
The middle page could be wholly fabricated, but in fact the wording is quite similar to what Randi says Joko Tri was instructed to do, so maybe there were such instructions in writing.
I think they've shuffled up bits of two different documents as a window-dressing job. Amateurish. Anyone who was genuine would have photographed each page in its entireity, separately and legibly.
I really can't see that anyone could regard this as a serious attempt to blag their way to the million bucks. It's just too silly. I think it's just a publicity stunt, plus people getting off on having everybody talking about them.
I think Randi's probably enjoying dragging out the story and having people who really need to get a life making speculations on the Forum and so on.
Rolfe.
yellowbamboo
Student
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TO make thigns simple and to have to post only once I thought to make it easy for everyone and put just the signature page
of randi.
The contract is simply downloaded from the internet. It was not changed in any way it was his standard agreeemtn.
I HAD thought the only question was if he had signed an actual contract or not?
I find the fact that Randi's signature is found at the start of a page odd.
Well if you want we could do a overview pic of all the docs
and then a close up of the notary page.
But I have understoond randi has now admitted to signing the contract- or has he not?
I also question why we should see the "WAIVER OF LIABILITY" clause, but that might be a minor point.
Simply because randi claimes it was part of the agreement
and we thought people might like to read it.
The most damaging fact is that, despite the call for verifiable evidence, it is impossible to read the name of the notary, or any of the text. Therefore, we don't know how the initial try-out (it wasn't a formal test) was supposed to happen.
Where in ANY of the documents does it say initial try out?
This is clearly a prliminary test or wehatever it says on the
doc/
Would it make it easier to do a close up of the notarized page?
I cannot imagine the Yellow Bamboo people not looking at the image, before they sent it to me by email.
A curious fact: The mail was sent with IMP Webmail Client, which is not something you would use if you were a technological newbie (YB has indicated a low knowledge of technology).
I dont know what thats about but we usedan older digital camera
and emailed it from our normal email account which comes with the website maintained in usa.
We are happy to resend maybe if you would do the courtesty of asking for it the exact weay you want instead of condemning it after the fact would make is simpler.
BTW- none of your comments changes the fact that Joko DID
get knocked down without getting touched as he has testified and the journalist witness has verified.
YBS
of randi.
The contract is simply downloaded from the internet. It was not changed in any way it was his standard agreeemtn.
I HAD thought the only question was if he had signed an actual contract or not?
I find the fact that Randi's signature is found at the start of a page odd.
Well if you want we could do a overview pic of all the docs
and then a close up of the notary page.
But I have understoond randi has now admitted to signing the contract- or has he not?
I also question why we should see the "WAIVER OF LIABILITY" clause, but that might be a minor point.
Simply because randi claimes it was part of the agreement
and we thought people might like to read it.
The most damaging fact is that, despite the call for verifiable evidence, it is impossible to read the name of the notary, or any of the text. Therefore, we don't know how the initial try-out (it wasn't a formal test) was supposed to happen.
Where in ANY of the documents does it say initial try out?
This is clearly a prliminary test or wehatever it says on the
doc/
Would it make it easier to do a close up of the notarized page?
I cannot imagine the Yellow Bamboo people not looking at the image, before they sent it to me by email.
A curious fact: The mail was sent with IMP Webmail Client, which is not something you would use if you were a technological newbie (YB has indicated a low knowledge of technology).
I dont know what thats about but we usedan older digital camera
and emailed it from our normal email account which comes with the website maintained in usa.
We are happy to resend maybe if you would do the courtesty of asking for it the exact weay you want instead of condemning it after the fact would make is simpler.
BTW- none of your comments changes the fact that Joko DID
get knocked down without getting touched as he has testified and the journalist witness has verified.
YBS
yellowbamboo
Student
- Joined
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- 26
Re: Re: Yellow Bamboo: The notarized agreement
[/b]
I agree. Hey, why don't you ask Randi for a copy?
[/b]
At the risk of being simplistic that would be a good idea, then you could criticise him
YBS
[/b]
I agree. Hey, why don't you ask Randi for a copy?
[/b]
At the risk of being simplistic that would be a good idea, then you could criticise him
YBS
arcticpenguin
Philosopher
- Joined
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- 5,687
Re: Re: Yellow Bamboo: The notarized agreement
You were asked for evidence, you provided crap. The video doesn't hold up well either, which is dealt with in other threads.
And you have provided absolutely no evidence that Mr. Tri was acting as an official representative of the JREF when he was knocked down or that it was as part of an official preliminary test for the $1M.yellowbamboo said:
You were asked for evidence, you provided crap. The video doesn't hold up well either, which is dealt with in other threads.
Re: Re: Yellow Bamboo: The notarized agreement
From where did you download it from? Precise URL, please.
Oh, no. You don't get off that easy. Each and every aspect of this will be investigated thoroughly. Don't expect to show us a piece of paper and walk away with a million bucks.
No, I would like this:
A picture of each page, so the text and signatures can be easily read. Also, I would like a close-up of the envelope, as well as a close-up of the signature.
Where does he admit that? Do not ask us to provide evidence of your claims, please.
What contract did he admit to signing? What was the content?
I am amazed that you thought people might not like to read what the terms would be instead.
"Whatever it says"?? Don't you even know what is in the document??
It is impossible for us to determine what it says, since we cannot read it.
No, we would need a full, readable photo of each page.
What camera did you use? Please be specific. When taking the photos, please use the highest possible resolution.
I have. Your move.
That is your claim, which we are investigating. Repeating it does not make it true. So far, we have seen very strange things happen in the video. Perhaps you could address the points made in the appropriate threads?
You can email me the photos at webmaster@skepticreport.com as usual.
yellowbamboo said:
From where did you download it from? Precise URL, please.
yellowbamboo said:
Oh, no. You don't get off that easy. Each and every aspect of this will be investigated thoroughly. Don't expect to show us a piece of paper and walk away with a million bucks.
yellowbamboo said:
No, I would like this:
A picture of each page, so the text and signatures can be easily read. Also, I would like a close-up of the envelope, as well as a close-up of the signature.
yellowbamboo said:
Where does he admit that? Do not ask us to provide evidence of your claims, please.
What contract did he admit to signing? What was the content?
yellowbamboo said:
I am amazed that you thought people might not like to read what the terms would be instead.
yellowbamboo said:
"Whatever it says"?? Don't you even know what is in the document??
It is impossible for us to determine what it says, since we cannot read it.
yellowbamboo said:
No, we would need a full, readable photo of each page.
yellowbamboo said:
What camera did you use? Please be specific. When taking the photos, please use the highest possible resolution.
yellowbamboo said:
I have. Your move.
yellowbamboo said:
That is your claim, which we are investigating. Repeating it does not make it true. So far, we have seen very strange things happen in the video. Perhaps you could address the points made in the appropriate threads?
You can email me the photos at webmaster@skepticreport.com as usual.
Patricio Elicer
Obsessed with Reality
Re: Re: Yellow Bamboo: The notarized agreement
If there's really something out there, you could make your point very clear by scanning the purported document, and showing it to us. We need something coherent that is readable.
A picture is not the best way. A scanned version would be far better and it's easy to do. Just scan every page and send them to Clausyellowbamboo said:
We are eagerly waiting to see what "Contract" your are talking about.
If there's really something out there, you could make your point very clear by scanning the purported document, and showing it to us. We need something coherent that is readable.
yellowbamboo
Student
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2003
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- 26
Re: Re: Re: Yellow Bamboo: The notarized agreement
We do not own a scanner. If skeptic emails us asking exactly what he wants then we will phot it and send it.
We will also email joko tri and ask him to forward all correspondence between him and randi and we will also forward correspondence from randi to us telling us tri is his rep.
Just one question- if we jump through all the hoops and give you exactly what you want- what exactly do we get in return?
What is the reason to do everything you want here- will it make any difference with randi?
Pak Ananda
Yellow Bamboo Society
www.yellowbamboo.com
Patricio Elicer said:
We do not own a scanner. If skeptic emails us asking exactly what he wants then we will phot it and send it.
We will also email joko tri and ask him to forward all correspondence between him and randi and we will also forward correspondence from randi to us telling us tri is his rep.
Just one question- if we jump through all the hoops and give you exactly what you want- what exactly do we get in return?
What is the reason to do everything you want here- will it make any difference with randi?
Pak Ananda
Yellow Bamboo Society
www.yellowbamboo.com
Re: Re: Re: Re: Yellow Bamboo: The notarized agreement
Very well, then photograph them the way I described it. Be advised that if the photos do not live up to a satisfactory standard, scanning might be an option.
Now you are thinking. Yes, please.
YOU come on the JREF board and claim that the million dollars have been won. YOU bring the evidence. You see, on this board, we support our claims with evidence, or lose credibility completely. Since you are also claiming one million dollars, you most certainly must show extraordinarily good evidence.
Will it make any difference with Randi? You will have to ask him that. However, I find you producing evidence for everyone to see a very good thing. Don't you want as much publicity as possible? Why did you want to win the money in the first place?
The JREF Challenge is the biggest challenge you can win. There are other skeptic groups which have offered prizes too, but this takes the cake. If you want to go for that, you have to expect to be scrutinized by others. Every aspect of this will be investigated, and by clever people, too.
You didn't expect to make a crappy video at night, only a few seconds long, and then walk away with a million bucks, unchallenged? If you did, you are in for a big surprise...
yellowbamboo said:
Very well, then photograph them the way I described it. Be advised that if the photos do not live up to a satisfactory standard, scanning might be an option.
yellowbamboo said:
Now you are thinking. Yes, please.
yellowbamboo said:
YOU come on the JREF board and claim that the million dollars have been won. YOU bring the evidence. You see, on this board, we support our claims with evidence, or lose credibility completely. Since you are also claiming one million dollars, you most certainly must show extraordinarily good evidence.
Will it make any difference with Randi? You will have to ask him that. However, I find you producing evidence for everyone to see a very good thing. Don't you want as much publicity as possible? Why did you want to win the money in the first place?
The JREF Challenge is the biggest challenge you can win. There are other skeptic groups which have offered prizes too, but this takes the cake. If you want to go for that, you have to expect to be scrutinized by others. Every aspect of this will be investigated, and by clever people, too.
You didn't expect to make a crappy video at night, only a few seconds long, and then walk away with a million bucks, unchallenged? If you did, you are in for a big surprise...
Chupacabras
Illuminator
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2003
- Messages
- 3,494
Re: Re: Re: Re: Yellow Bamboo: The notarized agreement
Just in case some information got lost among your many associates participating in this process, this very discussion is derived from another thread which Yellow Bamboo initiated, named Bamboo Randi contratc and which in turn evolves from yet another thread named Open letter to James Randi again initiated by Yellow Bamboo, which says:
YB started posting here spontaneously. YB offered the document for everyone to see. YB willingly entered into further debate with skeptics defending its case.
So, may I ask politely, what do you exactly intend to get in return?
Regards,
Dear Mr. Pak Ananda,yellowbamboo said:
Just in case some information got lost among your many associates participating in this process, this very discussion is derived from another thread which Yellow Bamboo initiated, named Bamboo Randi contratc and which in turn evolves from yet another thread named Open letter to James Randi again initiated by Yellow Bamboo, which says:
yellowbamboo said:
YB started posting here spontaneously. YB offered the document for everyone to see. YB willingly entered into further debate with skeptics defending its case.
So, may I ask politely, what do you exactly intend to get in return?
Regards,
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Nap, interrupted.
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2001
- Messages
- 19,141
And the chain is called Yellow Bamboozle.
~~ Paul
~~ Paul
yellowbamboo
Student
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2003
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- 26
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yellow Bamboo: The notarized agreement
Maybe you are unfamiliar with the rules- once we win the prelim we must then do the real test.
YOu also keep missing one important point- an independent journaLIST WAS THERE TO WITNESS THE TEST- YOU CAN BE SURE IF HE WAS BENT RANDI WOULD ANNOUNCE IT TO THE WORLD, NO?
YBS
CFLarsen said:
Very well, then photograph them the way I described it. Be advised that if the photos do not live up to a satisfactory standard, scanning might be an option.
Now you are thinking. Yes, please.
YOU come on the JREF board and claim that the million dollars have been won. YOU bring the evidence. You see, on this board, we support our claims with evidence, or lose credibility completely. Since you are also claiming one million dollars, you most certainly must show extraordinarily good evidence.
NOT true we only won the preliminary test. Next would be the test for the money, if randi plays straight.
Will it make any difference with Randi? You will have to ask him that. However, I find you producing evidence for everyone to see a very good thing. Don't you want as much publicity as possible? Why did you want to win the money in the first place?
IF we win the money we would use it all to travel the world giving free seminars. But we know no matter how many times we knock randi down we will never, never pay
You didn't expect to make a crappy video at night, only a few seconds long, and then walk away with a million bucks, unchallenged? If you did, you are in for a big surprise...
Maybe you are unfamiliar with the rules- once we win the prelim we must then do the real test.
YOu also keep missing one important point- an independent journaLIST WAS THERE TO WITNESS THE TEST- YOU CAN BE SURE IF HE WAS BENT RANDI WOULD ANNOUNCE IT TO THE WORLD, NO?
YBS
Brown
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2001
- Messages
- 12,984
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yellow Bamboo: The notarized agreement
As I understand it, you did not "win the prelim" at all. The documents you provided, partial though they are, disclose conditions that are not what were actually used. And the independent journalist's presence has no relevance at all.yellowbamboo said:
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yellow Bamboo: The notarized agreement
May I just offer a note in support of what Brown has said?
The video, as short as it is, makes it very clear that the agreed-upon conditions for the test were not followed by Yellow Bamboo. Even if Mr. Tri was an official JREF representative (which he wasn't), the test still would not have been passed.
Brown said:
May I just offer a note in support of what Brown has said?
The video, as short as it is, makes it very clear that the agreed-upon conditions for the test were not followed by Yellow Bamboo. Even if Mr. Tri was an official JREF representative (which he wasn't), the test still would not have been passed.