Split Thread WWII & Appeasement

[Garrison]

Sigh. Continuing evasion noted. Why can't you just attempt to answer the questions that have been asked, rather than repeating semi-relevant opinions of anonymous Internet posters for which no supporting evidence is provided, and many of which are demonstrably incorrect? Is it because you don't want to admit that you can't answer?

Evidence is like waffle, a word Henri doesn't understand. He think if he can find enough other people who share the same opinion as him that balances off everyone here who rejects his claims. He is simply unwilling to do any proper research, too afraid he will find proof he his wrong.

 

[ddt]

There are some interesting opinions about this matter on this forum, some of which make sense to me, though not very academic:

www.theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=194298

Indeed, so why don't you cite them? For instance, this one:

Katzbalger 21 Mar 2010 1:10 p.m. PST

A hard stand against Hitler would probably have made him back down, as Germanhy was in even worse shape (militarily) than UK and France.
[...]
If we are assuming Poland, Hungary, and Romania are neutral and its Britain and France with the Czechs, I think Germany would ahve had a VERY rough time--enough so that perhaps Hitler would have been kicked out, though Germany would probably not have been conquered. France would have borne the brunt of any action in the west (but it would not be significant). The Brits would be doing a blockade and mayben some pinprick type operations.

That's basically what we've been telling you all this thread.

 

[Hans]

Indeed, so why don't you cite them? For instance, this one:

That's basically what we've been telling you all this thread.

Just a reminder, Henri cannot be wrong therefore we all have to be wrong. So he'll just keep repeating the same nonsense. This thread is dead but Henri cannot bring himself to accept his defeat. The Italians, Japanese and Germans and a host of satellites did but Henri, no he'll never surrender.

Expect more and more vapid postings.

 

[njslim]

Part 2 of my alternate history "The War That Might Have Been..."

late January 1939 - The Czechs are holding out against the German forces, barely.

In the rough terrain of western Czechoslovakia have been able to halt the German penetration and stalemate the German offensive.

In the air the battle was more problematic . The original 50 Curtiss Hawk
aircraft had been ground down to barely 20 - many of them rebuilt several times from wrecks. The engines were worn out and performance suffered.

The losses forced the Czechs to carefully husband their resources. The Luftwaffe, noticing the slackening of the Czech air forces took full advantage
by upping the tempo of operations. Many towns were "blitzed", by the Luftwaffe causing severe damage. Even then the Czechs counterpunched conducting small scale limited attacks. Intruder missions where small numbers of light bombers, Tupolev SB purchased from the Soviet Union, would trail German formations back to their base attacking the air base just as the returning aircraft were landing, Several dozen German aircraft were
destroyed or damaged in this manner. The Luftwaffe were forced to divert fighters to patrol over the airbases and "clean" arriving formations to avoid
infiltrators. A spy in Austria reported some 2 dozen JU 52 transports parked on an airfield near Weiner Neustad. A low level attack, flying down the Danube
just above the river destroyed some 15 JU 52, escaping unscathed.

In the west The British were doing their part, naval forces blockaded Germany cutting off sea borne supplies, interdicting the flow of Swedish iron ore via the Norwegian port of Narvik. Limited air attacks against Northern German ports and the Ruhr were conducted by RAF Whitley and Hampden bombers, mainly at night to avoid the Luftwaffe. The Committee to Save Czechoslovakia had been established in Britain to aid the Czech government. Many members of the upper class lending their names (and money) to the cause kept up the pressure on the British government. The British offered send some surplus Hawker Hurricanes to assist the Czech air force, which the
Czechs demurred on to avoid complicatedly the logistical situation.

The French, on the outer hand, proved maddingly slow on organizing a offensive into Germany. The callup of reserve forces was slow and chaotic and the General Staff labored to man the forts of the Maginot Line while attempting to organize an offensive push into the Saar.

Even then the entry of Britain and French into the war against Czechoslovakia
forced the Germans to keep large forces on the Franco - German border. The
Luftwaffe was forced to maintain several squadrons of fighters in western Germany along with other aircraft to counter British attacks.

Help was on the way for the beleaguered Czechs. The French had agreed to divert their order of American Curtiss Hawk aircraft to the Czech air force. The ARMEE L 'AIRE sent a contingent of pilots to help the Czech fly them.

The Roosevelt administration used some slick lawyering (and winking at) bypassing Neutrality laws in order to ship the aircraft to the Czechs. Some 30 Curtiss Hawks of an improved type with more powerful 1050 hp engine and 6 machine gun armament would soon arrive.

The weather, would providently, provide a respite. Heavy fogs and snow storms shut down air activity for a week. The Czechs used the lull to maximum advantage, readying the newly arrived aircraft and using a shipment of spare engines to replace the worn engines of the existing aircraft.

Tactics were sharpened, including a new and terrifying tactic. the head on attack . A small number of aircraft would attack head on, closing to near suicidal range before opening fire . At a closing speed of nearly 500 mph
the risk of collision was distinct possibility. The head on attacks concentrated
fire on the most vulnerable sections of the aircraft. The terrifying sight of the
oncoming aircraft passing just meters away unnerved German fliers and broke up formations allowing the remainder of the squadron to pick off the bombers

 

[njslim]

The War That Might Been - Continued

January 31, 1939

Warned by the British that the weather would soon break, the Czechs waited for the impending onslaught

The Luftwaffe, noticing the slackening Czech Aerial response, had prepared a massive assault against Prague and several other Czech cities with the intent
of breaking the defenders morale

Goring boasted that his Luftwaffe would eradicate the Czech Untermensch

January 31 1939 dawned clear and cold, perfect flying weather.

Starting at dawn German recon and weather aircraft flew over Czechoslovakia, scoping out their targets

The Czechs did not molest the German aircraft, husbanding their resources for the coming assault. Pilots sat in their cockpits, engines warmed up waiting for the order to takeoff. They did not have long to wait

Ground observers reported massive formations of German aircraft heading into Czechoslovakia from airbases in Germany and recently annexed Austria

Czech pilots scrambled aloft into holding patterns, waiting to see the outline of the oncoming attack before committing their squadrons

Once the outline of the German attack was revealed the Czechs high command released their fighters, Curtiss Hawks an Avias against the German
formations.

Swirling dogfights crisscrossed the skies over Bohemia as the Czech fighters piled into the Luftwaffe. The head on attacks proved effective at disrupting
German formations allowing Czech fighters to take on the German bombers.
Throughout the day Czech fighters flew continuous sorties, landing to refuel and rearm, the pilots gulping hot sugary coffee to keep alert.

Many of the bombers were carrying heavy loads of 1 kg incendiary bombs designed to start numerous fires on the ground

Czech civil defense forces on the ground were hard pressed to find and extinguish the bombs before they could start a serious fire

Ever since the crisis had started civil defense had been uppermost in the Czech government. Short civil defense films were played at the beginning and end of feature films in the cinema. Tables were set up in the lobbies to distribute civil defense literature and sign up members for local civil defense
organizations. One Prague cinema would only play civil dense films continuously. Home and business owners were told to keep buckets of sand and water handy, along with tools like shovels (to scoop up burning incendiary)
and axes to cut away burning sections.

When the short winter day put an end to the combats, some 43 German aircraft had been downed with many more damaged, Czech losses were half that of the Germans. The Czechs had been able to deflect many of the German bomber formations.

The following day, February 1, German bomber formations were again on the attack, but the Czech head on attacks were proving effective at disrupting the
German bomber formations and more critically effecting morale .

Many of the bombers were dropping their loads at the first sign of Czech fighters to gain maneuvering speed and running for home

Because of this only 25 German aircraft were lost . Goring ranted at his aircrews, condemning them as cowards and malingers and threatening to fly the lead aircraft against the Czechs if his men would not

 

[Rincewind]

The War That Might Been - Continued

January 31, 1939

Warned by the British that the weather would soon break, the Czechs waited for the impending onslaught

The Luftwaffe, noticing the slackening Czech Aerial response, had prepared a massive assault against Prague and several other Czech cities with the intent
of breaking the defenders morale

Goring boasted that his Luftwaffe would eradicate the Czech Untermensch

January 31 1939 dawned clear and cold, perfect flying weather.

Starting at dawn German recon and weather aircraft flew over Czechoslovakia, scoping out their targets

The Czechs did not molest the German aircraft, husbanding their resources for the coming assault. Pilots sat in their cockpits, engines warmed up waiting for the order to takeoff. They did not have long to wait

Ground observers reported massive formations of German aircraft heading into Czechoslovakia from airbases in Germany and recently annexed Austria

Czech pilots scrambled aloft into holding patterns, waiting to see the outline of the oncoming attack before committing their squadrons

Once the outline of the German attack was revealed the Czechs high command released their fighters, Curtiss Hawks an Avias against the German
formations.

Swirling dogfights crisscrossed the skies over Bohemia as the Czech fighters piled into the Luftwaffe. The head on attacks proved effective at disrupting
German formations allowing Czech fighters to take on the German bombers.
Throughout the day Czech fighters flew continuous sorties, landing to refuel and rearm, the pilots gulping hot sugary coffee to keep alert.

Many of the bombers were carrying heavy loads of 1 kg incendiary bombs designed to start numerous fires on the ground

Czech civil defense forces on the ground were hard pressed to find and extinguish the bombs before they could start a serious fire

Ever since the crisis had started civil defense had been uppermost in the Czech government. Short civil defense films were played at the beginning and end of feature films in the cinema. Tables were set up in the lobbies to distribute civil defense literature and sign up members for local civil defense
organizations. One Prague cinema would only play civil dense films continuously. Home and business owners were told to keep buckets of sand and water handy, along with tools like shovels (to scoop up burning incendiary)
and axes to cut away burning sections.

When the short winter day put an end to the combats, some 43 German aircraft had been downed with many more damaged, Czech losses were half that of the Germans. The Czechs had been able to deflect many of the German bomber formations.

The following day, February 1, German bomber formations were again on the attack, but the Czech head on attacks were proving effective at disrupting the
German bomber formations and more critically effecting morale .

Many of the bombers were dropping their loads at the first sign of Czech fighters to gain maneuvering speed and running for home

Because of this only 25 German aircraft were lost . Goring ranted at his aircrews, condemning them as cowards and malingers and threatening to fly the lead aircraft against the Czechs if his men would not

Fascinating! And thanks!

Did you know that the Luftwaffe used the same head-on attacks against the USAF bombers?

 

[jimbob]

Fascinating! And thanks!

Did you know that the Luftwaffe used the same head-on attacks against the USAF bombers?

As did the RAF in the Battle of Britain.

If you are trying to disrupt a bombing formation, flying straight at it is an obviously good approach. Especially if you have a lot of firepower.

 

[njslim]

Head on attacks were effective in that many bombers lacked heavy forward firing armament

Most had only 1, maybe 2 mg often aimed by navigator or bombardiers doubling as gunners

Targeting the nose of the aircraft yields dividends in that the pilots and control
systems are based there

Also the front of the engine nacelles often have to the radiators and oil coolers - damage them and the engine seizes

To counter German head one attacks US fitted a turret with 2 .50 mg in the nose (Chin turret ) of Boeing B17 G model

 

[Andy_Ross]

German Aircraft like the Heinkel 111 and the JU88 had a very exposed nose with lots of glass panels, the pilots were particularly easy to hit from a head on attack.

 

[jimbob]

German Aircraft like the Heinkel 111 and the JU88 had a very exposed nose with lots of glass panels, the pilots were particularly easy to hit from a head on attack.

Yes, the bombers have to keep formation for most effective bombing, they didn't have that much forward armament and certainly needed to have vision and deflection shooting was less important.

 

[njslim]

German Aircraft like the Heinkel 111 and the JU88 had a very exposed nose with lots of glass panels, the pilots were particularly easy to hit from a head on attack.

Same for the Dornier 17 (the M variant was the most common, P was the recon version - 17 Z used during the Battle of Britain was not in service until 1939)

Luftwaffe liked to group the crews close together in the cockpit for mutual support and morale

 

[jimbob]

Same for the Dornier 17 (the M variant was the most common, P was the recon version - 17 Z used during the Battle of Britain was not in service until 1939)

Luftwaffe liked to group the crews close together in the cockpit for mutual support and morale

So ideal for bringing Britain to it's knees in 1938.

Along with the Me262 - which was an aircraft that the RAF couldn't match in 1938.

 

[Henri McPhee]

Chamberlain was a realist.

 

[Garrison]

Chamberlain was a realist.

So that's it? You can't even be bothered to try and back up your claims with irrelevant websites anymore? There is not one shred of evidence to back up the notion that Chamberlain expected war, he certainly fell drastically short in preparing for one if he did. The army received little or no attention until it was far too late. So either your statement is wrong or Chamberlain was an utterly incompetent realist.

 

[Klimax]

Chamberlain was a realist.

No. Dangerous incompetent war-causing short-sighted person.

 

[Hans]

Chamberlain was a realist.

...are you sure you know what that means?

Now when you are working on the definition it may help to realize you aren't one.

"a person who accepts a situation as it is and is prepared to deal with it accordingly"

 

[Hans]

So that's it? You can't even be bothered to try and back up your claims with irrelevant websites anymore? There is not one shred of evidence to back up the notion that Chamberlain expected war, he certainly fell drastically short in preparing for one if he did. The army received little or no attention until it was far too late. So either your statement is wrong or Chamberlain was an utterly incompetent realist.

I would say Chamberlain was at best an non-realistic person having unrealistic expectations in regards to the situation he was in. He completely mistook Hitler as a politician with humane goals instead of the Mein Kampf nutcase he was.

 

[Garrison]

I would say Chamberlain was at best an non-realistic person having unrealistic expectations in regards to the situation he was in. He completely mistook Hitler as a politician with humane goals instead of the Mein Kampf nutcase he was.

And this, along with his willingness to believe the most pessimistic estimates of German strength/British weakness constitutes the best defence of Chamberlain's actions. The problem for Henri is that when the real situation is take into account it still makes Chamberlain wrong and Churchill right, which is anathema to Henri.

 

[jimbob]

And this, along with his willingness to believe the most pessimistic estimates of German strength/British weakness constitutes the best defence of Chamberlain's actions. The problem for Henri is that when the real situation is take into account it still makes Chamberlain wrong and Churchill right, which is anathema to Henri.

I have seen it argued that Chamberlain was pessimistic because he was suffering from depression caused by his terminal illness. It makes sense to me. Mum's last paintings were very different in tone to all the rest.

 

[Hans]

And this, along with his willingness to believe the most pessimistic estimates of German strength/British weakness constitutes the best defence of Chamberlain's actions. The problem for Henri is that when the real situation is take into account it still makes Chamberlain wrong and Churchill right, which is anathema to Henri.

Yeah he does seem to have a thing against both Churchill and Hillary Clinton always going on for years about her wanting to 'march on Moscow' or some such nonsense.

Hey Henri did you know that Hillary Clinton was Churchill's illegitimate daughter?