Split Thread WWII & Appeasement

[dudalb]

The short answer is that militarily the Germans could not take out Britain.

Taking Britain out of the fight because it did not wish to continue the war is a different matter. I will note that in wars against major continental powers the British response to land defeats has been to withdraw to the home islands, boost the RN, crippling the seaborne trade of the continent, and then dealing with the overstretched land forces of the continental power. Seems to work.

Churchill said the only thing during the war the really scared him was the U Boats...If Germany had been able to do to British Sea Traffic what the US Navy's Submarine campaign in the Pacific did to Japan a negotiated peace might have looked good to many in Britian.

 

[Border Reiver]

Churchill said the only thing during the war the really scared him was the U Boats...If Germany had been able to do to British Sea Traffic what the US Navy's Submarine campaign in the Pacific did to Japan a negotiated peace might have looked good to many in Britian.

Given the disparity in naval capacity between Britain and Germany - I'm not so certain that an earlier start would have benefited Germany.

 

[Garrison]

Given the disparity in naval capacity between Britain and Germany - I'm not so certain that an earlier start would have benefited Germany.

It really doesn't. Far fewer surface units for the British to fret about and a painfully small U-Boat force that isn't going to be threatening Britain's oceanic trade for quite awhile.

 

[Klimax]

Germany did not have anywhere near the "Sea life" capability to pull off an invasion in 1938, and had to depend on a number of very dubious improvisions in planning Sea Lion in 1940.

That was actually the point. Even with "Sea life" Allies had a lot to learn and Market garden show cased how well would mass parachute op go.

 

[Degeneve]

HOW? How would German military cross that Channel? Where the hell would they even get resources?

I see only two possibilities:

Moses method: Hitler positions himself at the Cape Gris-Nez and splits the channel waters in two as Moses did with the waters of the Red See and the Wehrmacht can easily cross the Channel

Jesus method: Hitler makes the German infantry divisions walk (at goose step of course) on the Channel waters.

In both cases the British troops are so demoralized that they surrender even without fighting...

I have however the feeling that both possibilities had almost no chance to become real...

 

[lobosrul5]

Look up the operation radius of the Bf109 and then tell me why Spitfires would be necessary, bearing in mind they would be flying from Germany.

But you see Fall Gelb would've gone exactly the same in '38 even without the captured Czech tanks, and enough PzIII's and Iv's to outfit a single battalion

 

[Hubert Cumberdale]

I see only two possibilities:

Moses method: Hitler positions himself at the Cape Gris-Nez and splits the channel waters in two as Moses did with the waters of the Red See and the Wehrmacht can easily cross the Channel

Jesus method: Hitler makes the German infantry divisions walk (at goose step of course) on the Channel waters.

In both cases the British troops are so demoralized that they surrender even without fighting...

I have however the feeling that both possibilities had almost no chance to become real...

Optional Jesus Method II - Turn the channel into wine, British and French drink themselves to death in 3 days flat

 

[lobosrul5]

I see only two possibilities:

Moses method: Hitler positions himself at the Cape Gris-Nez and splits the channel waters in two as Moses did with the waters of the Red See and the Wehrmacht can easily cross the Channel

Jesus method: Hitler makes the German infantry divisions walk (at goose step of course) on the Channel waters.

In both cases the British troops are so demoralized that they surrender even without fighting...

I have however the feeling that both possibilities had almost no chance to become real...

Or, the Kriegsmarine consisting of 2 undergunned BB's, 3 mini battleships, 4 CL's and about 20 destroyers defeats a navy easily 10 times its size. ETA: oops, Scharnhorst was commissioned in Jan '39 so just one actually.

 

[Garrison]

Isn't also a rather damning indictment of Chamberlain's leadership if it were true that Britain had no choice except to capitulate at Munich or face all but instant defeat?

 

[Hubert Cumberdale]

Or, the Kriegsmarine consisting of 2 undergunned BB's, 3 mini battleships, 4 CL's and about 20 destroyers defeats a navy easily 10 times its size. ETA: oops, Scharnhorst was commissioned in Jan '39 so just one actually.

And as mentioned above the Gniensenhorsts couldn't actually shoot their guns until early '39 (bit of a drawback for a BB)

 

[Hubert Cumberdale]

But you see Fall Gelb would've gone exactly the same in '38 even without the captured Czech tanks, and enough PzIII's and Iv's to outfit a single battalion

What Henri is proposing is that the UK capitulates within a week. So starting on Monday morning, we have to have Fall Gelb completed by say Thursday lunchtime, with the BoB and Sealowe successfully completed with enough time to get Sunday dinner in the oven.

 

[Garrison]

What Henri is proposing is that the UK capitulates within a week. So starting on Monday morning, we have to have Fall Gelb completed by say Thursday lunchtime, with the BoB and Sealowe successfully completed with enough time to get Sunday dinner in the oven.

Cooked goose would seem an appropriate meal.

 

[ddt]

Britain would have ended up like Holland and Denmark and Norway and Belgium in 1938. You must be too strong to be attacked, which Chamberlain understood, but not Churchill.

And how did giving away Czechoslovakia help? Nazi Germany still tried to attack (Battle of Britain).

But please, explain to us how Germany could have vanquished Britain within a week as you claimed.

The short answer is that militarily the Germans could not take out Britain.

Taking Britain out of the fight because it did not wish to continue the war is a different matter. I will note that in wars against major continental powers the British response to land defeats has been to withdraw to the home islands, boost the RN, crippling the seaborne trade of the continent, and then dealing with the overstretched land forces of the continental power. Seems to work.

This.

The last successful foreign invasion was in 1688, and that was with consent of Parliament. Napoleon assembled 400,000 troops around Boulogne-sur-Mer in 1804, couldn't solve the crossing problem either and thought the better of it (it helped that the Austrians got uppity).

 

[ddt]

In the 70s the remaining commanders from the German and British forces that would have been involved in Sealion took part in a wargame at Sandhurst.
They gamed the landings and the aftermath.
To help the Germans the RN wasn't allowed to interfere for 24 hours after the first landing on the beach and the Luftwaffe were given air superiority.

This thread is really going in rounds, isn't it? To up your Sandhurst wargame report, here's from page 4 of the thread:

There's a story I've heard, possibly apocryphal, that Sandhurst war-gamed a German invasion in 1940 in which the forces available to Britain were Snoopy in his Sopwith Camel, Captain Pugwash and the Black Pig, and the Walmington-on-Sea platoon of the Home Guard, and the German invasion still failed.

Hundreds of barges assembling at sea and wallowing behind their tugs at 3 or 4 knots would have been destroyed before they even got away from the coast.

I wonder if sending some good old-fashioned burners into the crowd of barges would also have been effective, like it was in 1588?

 

[ddt]

In May 1941 the Germans had great difficulties in Crete and their one and only Parachute division suffered unacceptable losses in that operation, successful though it finally was. Now tell me how the Germans were to knock the UK out of the war by landing parachutists in London parks.

Easy peasy. Land a skilled orator in Hyde Park's Speakers' Corner and he'll convince the London populace that they should surrender.

 

[ddt]

That was actually the point. Even with "Sea life" Allies had a lot to learn and Market garden show cased how well would mass parachute op go.

Disregarding intelligence from the Dutch underground that there were significant German troops around Arnhem, and fitting out your troops with radios that only have a range of 5km while you drop them 20km off the intended target does not help. Still, John Frost held Arnhem bridge for four days.

 

[lobosrul5]

This.

The last successful foreign invasion was in 1688, and that was with consent of Parliament. Napoleon assembled 400,000 troops around Boulogne-sur-Mer in 1804, couldn't solve the crossing problem either and thought the better of it (it helped that the Austrians got uppity).

Well France did get troops ashore in 1797... but I wouldn't call it a great success.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fishguard

 

[Craig B]

Well France did get troops ashore in 1797... but I wouldn't call it a great success.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fishguard

They were awaited with enthusiasm in another part of the British Archipelago

O! The French are on the sea
Says the sean-bhean bhocht;
The French are on the sea,
Says the sean-bhean bhocht;
O! the French are in the bay,
They'll be here without delay,
And the Orange will decay,
Says the sean-bhean bhocht.​

(Gaelic: "poor old woman" - a personification of Ireland) But when they did arrive, in 1798, they were speedily defeated.

 

[Dave Rogers]

Says the sean-bhean bhocht.[/indent]
(Gaelic: "poor old woman" - a personification of Ireland)

That explains a lot about Sean Bean.

Dave

 

[Craig B]

That explains a lot about Sean Bean.

Dave

Well, I must admit I've never thought of him as a personification of Ireland