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Split Thread WWII & Appeasement

Chamberlain had the strange belief that you must be too strong to be attacked. In 1938 Britain was not too strong to be attacked, and that's a fact.


Yet Britain was too strong to be attacking in 1939? :rolleyes:

You can't just declare war on a wing and a prayer, as Churchill intended because committing suicide is supposed to be honourable.


And, as always, you utterly ignore the incontrovertible fact that Germany gained far more by the year's delay, both militarily and politically, than Britain and France did.
 
Chamberlain had the strange belief that you must be too strong to be attacked. In 1938 Britain was not too strong to be attacked, and that's a fact.
Henri, what bombers would Germany have used to attack Britain in 1938? Flown from what airfields? With what fighter escort?

Actually, we can probably discard the question about airfields. You've made it clear that you don't know enough about airfields to support your claims. So feel free to focus on what you know about the bombers and their fighter escorts. We'll let the other members provide the airfield information you need.
 
Again, as we discussed earlier, you are comparing the maximum unloaded speed of the He 111 to the maximum speed of the Gladiator, when the appropriate comparison is the loaded formation cruise speed of the He 111 to the maximum speed of the Gladiator. But even with your inappropriate comparison, the Gladiator still has a significant advantage, especially as it would most likely have been diving to attack, thus gaining additional speed.

I can see in Henri's world, the He111 pilots jumping in their planes, flying all the way to London, and only at the last minute realizing
"Oh mine got, we forgot ze bombs!!!"
(opens window and starts spitting)

"Take zat yo dirty zwine english dogs!!!"

(minutes later the English sue for surrender, not being able to take the dastardly Nazi attack that destroyed Londons great architecture)

"Damn those nazi's, it will take me hours to clean all the spitol off Big Ben!"

"Thats it, we are surrendering now then"


:rolleyes:
 
Chamberlain had the strange belief that you must be too strong to be attacked. In 1938 Britain was not too strong to be attacked, and that's a fact. You can't just declare war on a wing and a prayer, as Churchill intended because committing suicide is supposed to be honourable.

Henri, did you actually understand what the reference to 'Faith, Hope & Charity' meant there? Or did you post your latest nonsense based on a complete failure to understand dualdb's post?
 
Henri, did you actually understand what the reference to 'Faith, Hope & Charity' meant there? Or did you post your latest nonsense based on a complete failure to understand dualdb's post?

I dont get his complete inability to see that his 'fact's aren't...
It's like a kindergarten kid "My dad can beat up your dad"
"nurhur..."
When the first kids dad is world boxing champion...

eta

Originally Posted by Henri McPhee
Chamberlain had the strange belief that you must be too strong to be attacked. In 1938 Britain was not too strong to be attacked, and that's a fact.


No Henri, its not a 'fact', in fact it's the very opposite of a 'fact'

The German bombers were slower than the Pommie fighters until AFTER they had dropped their bombs- thats a fact
They could barely make the round trip even under the best circumstances, add in full throttle evasive maneuvers and they have to land in another country or crash- thats a fact
German fighters could NOT make it there and back at all, any fighters that accompanied the bombers on their attack would be on a one way trip and crash long before they got anywhere near a landing site not in Britain, and thats a fact
Any land assault (using river barges and tugs) would be a total failure due to air superiority and naval superiority by the British at the time, thats a fact
 
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Henri,

You're missing one possible scenario.

What might have happened if the Brits, French and Czech had stood up to Hitler, and getting The Soviet Union to comment about their support for the Czechs.

It has to be a possibility that Hitler might have had second thoughts - or at least the Army command.

There was after all a group of army officers who were apparently thinking of deposing Hitler - if sufficient foreign encouragement was made available.
 
Henri,

You're missing one possible scenario.

What might have happened if the Brits, French and Czech had stood up to Hitler, and getting The Soviet Union to comment about their support for the Czechs.

It has to be a possibility that Hitler might have had second thoughts - or at least the Army command.

There was after all a group of army officers who were apparently thinking of deposing Hitler - if sufficient foreign encouragement was made available.

You're missing another possible scenario Henri.

What if Hitler had a couple of atomic bombs and dropped them on London, that would have sure made those Pommies surrender in 1938 for sure!!

And any of those slow old Gladiators would for sure be shot down by the germans Bf-110D's so they would have no probs at all dropping their atom bombs in 1938, no problems at all, no siree


:rolleyes:
 
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Henri, did you actually understand what the reference to 'Faith, Hope & Charity' meant there? Or did you post your latest nonsense based on a complete failure to understand dualdb's post?

Oh come on how do you expect someone who thinks invading the Channel Island is the same degree of difficult as invading England proper - would know where Malta even was?

Edited to add:

Henri since we are doing crazy talk here, or at least you are, why don't you invoke the Italian air force which sent aircraft to bomb England during the Battle of Britain into your 1938 fantasy?

...and if we are going whole hog why not have the Italian fleet come around the Iberian peninsula and help out those German Rhine barges moving to attack the east coat of Blighty?
 
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Henri,

There was after all a group of army officers who were apparently thinking of deposing Hitler - if sufficient foreign encouragement was made available.

Quite the difference from September 1939 when those same people who were so adamantly against war in 1938 went along with the plan to attack Poland. It's almost as if they had concluded that Germany was much stronger relative to its enemies in 39 than 38...
 
Henri,

You're missing one possible scenario.

What might have happened if the Brits, French and Czech had stood up to Hitler, and getting The Soviet Union to comment about their support for the Czechs.

It has to be a possibility that Hitler might have had second thoughts - or at least the Army command.

There was after all a group of army officers who were apparently thinking of deposing Hitler - if sufficient foreign encouragement was made available.

I don't think that scenario is being a realist. There was military weakness in France and Britain. Stalin was more interested in aggressive war and in 'liberating' the Baltic states and Finland and Poland and Czechoslovakia, than thinking about the inevitable German- Soviet Russia military conflict about to befall him.

I agree there was disagreement and opposition to Hitler by German generals in 1938. Chamberlain was not stopping them from acting drastically. The trouble is it was not an easy task. It was a very dangerous task and they could have all died by being thrown into a lime pit and tortured like, at Guantanamo Bay. I think Admiral Canaris and Colonel Oster died towards the end of the war, I think in Flossenburg concentration camp, after the diaries of Canaris had been discovered by the Gestapo. Rommel was forced to commit suicide.

There is some background to all this at this website:

http://valkyrie-plot.com/1938.html

When staff exercises suggested that the German Wehrmacht might indeed be able to crush the resistance of the Czech armed forces in just five days, Beck's protests only became more passionate. Beck was not opposed to the tactics or timing of such an invasion: he opposed the very act of aggression against a sovereign state.
 
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Henri, that's blatant nonsense and for additional fun it contradicts some of your previous quotes. For starters, Germany would not crush Czech defense in five days.
 
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I don't think that scenario is being a realist.

Well since you've repeatedly admitted you haven't made extensive studies and you've failed to provide any evidence for your claims why should what you think carry any weight?

There was military weakness in France and Britain.

And as you refuse to understand or respond to there was far greater military weakness in Germany. A war starting in 1938 would have seen German in a far worse position than one starting in 1939

Stalin was more interested in aggressive war and in 'liberating' the Baltic states and Finland and Poland and Czechoslovakia, than thinking about the inevitable German- Soviet Russia military conflict about to befall him.

Have you been visiting those pro-Nazi websites again?

I agree there was disagreement and opposition to Hitler by German generals in 1938. Chamberlain was not stopping them from acting drastically.

Yes he was. What do you think the effect of Munich was? It reinforced Hitler's position and undermined internal opposition. It simply meant that when war did come Britain and France would fight under far less advantageous circumstances.

The trouble is it was not an easy task. It was a very dangerous task and they could have all died by being thrown into a lime pit and tortured like, at Guantanamo Bay.

It was a much harder task after Chamberlain handed Hitler a massive diplomatic victory at a time when the apparatus of control via the SS and Gestapo was far weaker. Your other political sawhorse is irrelevant.

I think Admiral Canaris and Colonel Oster died towards the end of the war, I think in Flossenburg concentration camp, after the diaries of Canaris had been discovered by the Gestapo. Rommel was forced to commit suicide.

Utterly irrelevant.

There is some background to all this at this website:

And surprise, surprise, the article you linked contradicts your assertion that Chamberlain didn't stop the plotters taking action:

...Into a "peace conference" with Hitler and signed away the territorial integrity of a sovereign state (Czechoslovakia) they had helped create in 1919 and guaranteed. They accepted Hitler's word that the Sudetenland was his "last" territorial ambition, and called the agreement "Peace in our Time." So the German Wehrmacht marched triumphantly into the Sudetenland without a shot being fired. Under the circumstances it was impossible to arrest the successful dictator on the grounds that he was mad. The coup with the best chances of success did not take place, and the conspirators went their separate ways.

In other words it was precisely Chamberlains actions that prevented a coup taking place.
 
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I've done some more research on Luftwaffe bombers and bases in 1938, and I was able to dig up some information on the endurance of some of the early model He 111s, and the Ju 86.

I learned that even the early Ju 86s couldn't reach England from Germany. Although they had decent endurance (due to their diesel engines) their cruise speed was pathetically slow.

The first He 111 with sufficient endurance to bomb London from Lower Saxony was the He 111E-3, of which 67 were produced (source). It had a loaded cruise speed of 235 mph, and a top speed of 265 mph (source). (I discovered that the reason many later models had such low fully loaded speeds is that they had external bomb racks.) However, a Gladiator squadron vectored into position by radar could still have caused serious damage to a Gruppe of He 111Es, and a Hurricane squadron would have massacred them.

The He 111E-4, of which only 10 were built, featured the aforementioned external bomb racks, and may have included a 220 gallon auxiliary fuel tank in the bomb bay. The E-5, of which "few" were built (sources differ), included both the bomb racks and the bomb bay tank.

The He 111F-2, of which 20 were built, was similar to the E-3. The F-4, of which 40 were built, was similar to the E-5 (source). If our Czech source is accurate, only about 10 of these would have been delivered at the time of Munich. But I'll grant for the sake of argument that there were enough longer-range variants available to equip one Gruppe.

The He 111J had originally been designed as a torpedo bomber for the Kriegsmarine. But after 10 pre-production J-0s were built, the last 80 J-1s were completed with bomb bays, and were thus similar to the E-3 (source).

The upshot of all this is that the Luftwaffe had fewer than 200 bombers capable of reaching London from Lower Saxony, including up to 30 longer-range models.

According to a source to which I can't link*, the He 111E-3 had an endurance of 225 minutes at cruise speed. Multiplying that by the loaded cruise speed of 235 mph and dividing by 60 gives 880 miles. Some range will be gained by the small speed increase after the bombs are dropped, and by carrying a reduced bomb load, but, as discussed, fuel must also be allowed for engine warm-up, take-off, forming up, climbing, and waiting to land, plus the inefficiency of flying in formation. And of course a reserve for combat and other contingencies such as navigation errors and bad weather is highly desirable. But we can go with the 400 miles that Henri's source suggested, even though that might be a bit optimistic for all but the smallest raids.

I found two suitable Luftwaffe bases that were available in 1938 and are within 400 miles of London, assuming that flying over France and/or neutrals is not allowed. One is Jever, near Willhelmshaven, which is still a Luftwaffe base today (ICAO: ETNJ), and the other is Varel, about 10 miles south of Willhelmshaven, which was mostly demolished after the war. Additionally, the Gruppe equipped with the longer-range He 111s could have been based at Oldenburg, which is about 30 miles south of Jever. So this means that about 90 bombers could have been based within range of London. (FWIW, Jever and Varel are also within 400 miles of Sheffield, Leeds, and Newcastle-upon-Tyne.) And don't forget that the British would have had over 100 Whitleys available, which could carry three times the reduced bomb load of the He 111, and easily reach most German cities, including Berlin.

However, it does not mean that the Luftwaffe could have launched a 90-plane raid against London every day. Recall that I mentioned earlier that in August 1938 only about half of their bombers were in commission, and only about half the number of crews required were available, of which the majority weren't fully trained. Although, as discussed, the Luftwaffe was able to raise the in-commission rate substantially during September by severely curtailing flying hours, that undoubtedly didn't help the training situation.

The wear-and-tear on the aircraft, and the strain on the crews, from continually flying long-range combat missions would have caused the in-commission rate to plummet, and operational losses to mount. So I imagine that the three Gruppen would have been lucky to put up half of their aircraft every day, or maybe a 75% maximum effort once a week or so. And this is before considering enemy action.

I've already discussed the He 111's weak defensive armament. On top of that, unlike their 1940 descendants, these models lacked cockpit armor and self-sealing fuel tanks. In addition to making them easier to shoot down, this means that even a minor fuel tank hit, whether from fighter or flak, would almost certainly have resulted in the loss of the aircraft, and probably the crew as well, due to fuel exhaustion before they could return to Lower Saxony.

Presumably after one or two of the aforementioned Hurricane massacres, the Luftwaffe would have switched to night bombing. But we have to keep in mind that, as has been mentioned, they didn't have Knickebein at the time, so bombing anything other than London would have been problematic, and even London wouldn't have been a sure thing.

Optimistically, the Luftwaffe could probably have dropped about 50 tons of bombs on London every night. However, as I've mentioned, 24,000 tons of bombs were dropped on the city during the Blitz, sometimes by raids involving hundreds of aircraft with much larger bomb loads. And this happened at a time when Britain stood alone against Germany, which would not have been the case in 1938. Yet Britain didn't sue for peace.

So Henri, in view of the above, please explain exactly how the Luftwaffe could have bombed Britain into submission in a week in October 1938.
__________

*I got it from a closed Io group run by J.D. Webster, designer of air war games and former US Navy A-7 pilot. If anyone really wants to see it PM me and I'll either send you the PDFs or show you how to join the group.
 
Sounds like even air attack on Czechoslovakia would severely tax Luftwaffe and we are far near-infinitely closer to their bases then Britain.
 
Brilliant post by SpitfireIX

Nominated.

Work above and beyond the call of duty and very educational.
 

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