Split Thread WWII & Appeasement

[Henri McPhee]

Can only reach England from Germany by flying over the Netherlands, Belgium, or France (inadvisable, but possible).

Requires flying over the Netherlands. Fail.

Requires flying from Emden (no Luftwaffe base; only a small civil airport), and flying over the Netherlands. Fail.

Insufficient to reach England with acceptable reserves without flying over French or neutral territory.

I can't quite see why you have got it into your head that the Luftwaffe would have to fly over the Netherlands, or France, to firestorm London in 1938. Looking at my atlas the most direct route for the Luftwaffe bombers would be to fly over the North Sea. I admit I have not made a profound study of the ranges and fuel capacities, but I do know that the RAF thought at the time that the Gloster Gladiator was too slow to fight off the weak little German bombers in 1938. At least Churchill would have fought them on the beaches.

There is a discussion of this sort of thing at this website:

http://historum.com/war-military-history/57136-british-rearmament-program-before-ww2.html

Britain was both trading time for rearmament and also waiting for the inevitable Russian/German war. If you want to see an example of trading time for rearmament consider Czechoslovakia. The RAF had no single wing single engine fighters then, the first batch of Hurricanes didn't become operational till after then. War against the Luftwaffe was impossible till mid 39.

 

[fagin]

I can't quite see why you have got it into your head that the Luftwaffe would have to fly over the Netherlands, or France, to firestorm London in 1938. Looking at my atlas the most direct route for the Luftwaffe bombers would be to fly over the North Sea. I admit I have not made a profound study of the ranges and fuel capacities, but I do know that the RAF thought at the time that the Gloster Gladiator was too slow to fight off the weak little German bombers in 1938. At least Churchill would have fought them on the beaches.

There is a discussion of this sort of thing at this website:

http://historum.com/war-military-history/57136-british-rearmament-program-before-ww2.html

Par for the course.

But others have, in this very thread.

 

[Dave Rogers]

I can't quite see why you have got it into your head that the Luftwaffe would have to fly over the Netherlands, or France, to firestorm London in 1938. Looking at my atlas the most direct route for the Luftwaffe bombers would be to fly over the North Sea. I admit I have not made a profound study of the ranges and fuel capacities,

... which is precisely why you can't understand all this. The shortest route, by quite a lot, is to start from the Rhineland and fly over Belgium and/or the Netherlands (if you can't see that then I think you need a new atlas), and therefore to violate their neutrality. The route over the North Sea is a lot longer (again, this should be obvious from a decent atlas), and therefore requires more fuel, which means a limited bombload for the bombers and a no-show for the fighters and the Stukas.

And there's a more general point here; time after time you keep admitting that you don't really know or understand much about the subject matter, but insist that you're right and the people who've studied it and understand it in more detail are wrong. Has it ever occurred to you that prioritising your ignorance over other people's expertise is not necessarily the best route to knowledge?

Dave

 

[Andy_Ross]

I can't quite see why you have got it into your head that the Luftwaffe would have to fly over the Netherlands, or France, to firestorm London in 1938. Looking at my atlas the most direct route for the Luftwaffe bombers would be to fly over the North Sea. I admit I have not made a profound study of the ranges and fuel capacities, but I do know that the RAF thought at the time that the Gloster Gladiator was too slow to fight off the weak little German bombers in 1938. At least Churchill would have fought them on the beaches.

There is a discussion of this sort of thing at this website:

http://historum.com/war-military-history/57136-british-rearmament-program-before-ww2.html

Gladiators were quite capable of attacking un escorted bombers.

Firestorm London? No.

 

[Henri McPhee]

Gladiators were quite capable of attacking un escorted bombers.

Firestorm London? No.

Have you ever compared the speed of the Gloster Gladiator to the German bombers at the time? From what I can make out there was not much difference.

 

[Henri McPhee]

Klimax may be help me out here, but does he feel confident that the Czech air force in 1938 could have successfully taken on the Luftwaffe in 1938, which had modern aircraft, or prevented the bombing of Prague? There is a sensible comment about this on one of those military discussion forums:

by Andy H » 26 Mar 2004, 19:04
I would imagine that any invasion would result in the quick overrunning of Czech airfields thus rendering the Czech air force impotent.

As for the French & British, one would have to wonder what useful targets the bombers could hit to have any particular effect on the outcome of the Czech invasion. Also would Allied fighters be able to escort the bombers to and from the target area?

 

[Border Reiver]

The British and French airforces would not have needed to have a direct effect on the Wehrmacht forces involved in the invasion of Czechoslovakia to have an effect on an invasion of that country.

The Luftwaffe's need to divert considerable resources to the air defence of Germany from the RAF and French Air Service would have had a dramatic effect on the force ratio in the Czech theatre - which would also have had a knock-on effect for land operations.

Realistically, a strong French and British response would have very likely resulted in the Germans NOT trying an invasion against the Bohemian defence lines with the threat of French or British operations in the Rhineland.

 

[Klimax]

Klimax may be help me out here, but does he feel confident that the Czech air force in 1938 could have successfully taken on the Luftwaffe in 1938, which had modern aircraft, or prevented the bombing of Prague? There is a sensible comment about this on one of those military discussion forums:

by Andy H » 26 Mar 2004, 19:04
I would imagine that any invasion would result in the quick overrunning of Czech airfields thus rendering the Czech air force impotent.

As for the French & British, one would have to wonder what useful targets the bombers could hit to have any particular effect on the outcome of the Czech invasion. Also would Allied fighters be able to escort the bombers to and from the target area?

That comment is total nonsense. How the hell do you think Germany would quickly overran airfields? By magic?
Reminder:

The air force had more than 100 airfields and 1,300 aeroplanes, of which 650 were front-line aircraft.[

Ground assault would be long way from any airfields and any paratrooper attack would be grossly insufficient. (And quickly defeated if it would actually get anywhere)
BTW: We had large number of AA guns. Those planes would have fairly bad times up there...

Second, we had treaty with SSSR and at minimum air force would be available.

For some details see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czechoslovak_Air_Force#History

As for bombing Prague. not relevant. It would have same effect as bombing of French or British cities...

 

[Andy_Ross]

BTW: We had large number of AA guns. Those planes would have fairly bad times up there...

No they wouldn't. As already pointed out AA at the time was pretty much limited to psychological effect.

 

[theprestige]

Klimax may be help me out here, but does he feel confident that the Czech air force in 1938 could have successfully taken on the Luftwaffe in 1938

Henri, I didn't ask about Czechoslovakia in 1938, I asked about Britain. Specifically: What bombers would Germany have used to attack Britain in 1938? Flown from what airfields? With what fighter escort?

 

[Henri McPhee]

Second, we had treaty with SSSR and at minimum air force would be available.

For some details see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czechoslovak_Air_Force#History

As for bombing Prague. not relevant. It would have same effect as bombing of French or British cities...

This is a quote from that Wikipedia which Klimax mentions. It doesn't inspire confidence in Czech air defence capability, except perhaps in Churchill's judgment:

Aero (Aero továrna letadel) was in the Vysočany quarter of Prague. Its mixed construction (wood, metal, and fabric covering) and all-metal aircraft were competitive in the early 1930s, but by 1938, only its MB.200 (a licensed Bloch design) was not totally obsolete.

Avia B-534 fighter

Avia (Avia akciová společnost pro průmysl letecký Škoda), a branch of the enormous Škoda Works (Škodovy závody) heavy machinery and military industrial enterprise, was different. Founded in 1919 in a former sugar refinery in the eastern Prague suburbs of Letňany and Čakovice, Avia made entire aeroplanes. Many of its engines were licensed Hispano-Suiza designs. It build the standard Czechoslovak fighter aircraft of the late 1930s, the B-534, of which a total 568 were built. The B-534 and its derivatives were among the last biplane fighters in operational use.

 

[Henri McPhee]

Henri, I didn't ask about Czechoslovakia in 1938, I asked about Britain. Specifically: What bombers would Germany have used to attack Britain in 1938? Flown from what airfields? With what fighter escort?

There doesn't seem to be much information about German bomber airfields. It must be possible somehow to dig up the facts about it. It's not a great secret now. As I have said before, having a fighter escort was not of great importance to the Germans until the fast Hurricanes and Spitfires came along. The German bombers were perfectly capable of defending themselves, and fleeing back to Germany in a hurry. There is some information at this website, but I am not sure how relevant it is:

http://www.forgottenairfields.com/germany/schleswig-holstein/holstein/neumunster-s319.html

Related airfields Neumünster
Grossenbrode
54°21'33"N011°04'49"Naval Aviation Station (German: Seefliegerhorst) Großenbrode...
Lübeck-Karlshof
53°53'28"N 010°43'17"EFlying field: 0000x00m - grassLübeck-Karlshof airfield was an...
Kaltenkirchen
53°49'34"N 009°53'52"ERunway: SSW/NNE - 1800x85meters - ConcreteEinstazhafen...
Travemünde
53°56'57"N 010°52'46"ETravemünde airfield (german: Flugplatz Travemünde, also...

 

[Klimax]

No they wouldn't. As already pointed out AA at the time was pretty much limited to psychological effect.

I think density of AA guns and targets could affect outcome. And in any case even if just psychological effect would be present, it already is something.

This is a quote from that Wikipedia which Klimax mentions. It doesn't inspire confidence in Czech air defence capability, except perhaps in Churchill's judgment:

In 1936 Reichsmarschall Hermann Göring wrote "The Czechoslovak Air Force must be considered as one of the leading air forces as regards personnel, and, considering its limited financial possibilities, more than satisfactory with regard to material and equipment"

I don't think Germans shared same opinion...

 

[Garrison]

There doesn't seem to be much information about German bomber airfields. It must be possible somehow to dig up the facts about it. It's not a great secret now

So again you admit you don't know anything about the topic, but you follow that by saying:

As I have said before, having a fighter escort was not of great importance to the Germans until the fast Hurricanes and Spitfires came along. The German bombers were perfectly capable of defending themselves, and fleeing back to Germany in a hurry.

Repeating claims already discredited by people who have 'dug up' the information that continues to elude you.

There is some information at this website, but I am not sure how relevant it is:

Well based on your posting history the answer is either not relevant, or relevant but contradicts your claims.

 

[SpitfireIX]

I can't quite see why you have got it into your head that the Luftwaffe would have to fly over the Netherlands, or France, to firestorm London in 1938. Looking at my atlas the most direct route for the Luftwaffe bombers would be to fly over the North Sea.

I never said that. I was pointing out that the scenarios discussed require flying over France and/or neutral countries. It would certainly have been possible for the Luftwaffe to have flown their relatively few bombers with sufficient range (mainly the later production He-111Es) over the North Sea, while avoiding French or neutral airspace, but the author of the post you were quoting specified a 400-mile combat radius.

For example, the author makes the claim that the distance from Essen to Sheffield is about 380 miles. Mapping this, we see that the distance from Essen/Mülheim to Sheffield City is in fact 378 miles, but as you can clearly see, the straight-line path goes directly through the Netherlands, and avoiding Dutch airspace would require about another 150 miles each direction, putting the total distance well over 800 miles.

Further, you can't just go by looking at an atlas, which is two-dimensional. You need to use a great circle mapper, as I did above. The only Luftwaffe airfield that could both operate bombers and allow for a direct flight over the North Sea while (barely) avoiding Dutch airspace was Flensburg, near the Danish border.
Flensburg-London City (448 mi).

I admit I have not made a profound study of the ranges and fuel capacities . . .

Obviously. In fairness, however, some of this information is difficult or impossible to find, and, as I and others have mentioned, there are a large number of variables that go into mission planning. I'll have more on this in a later post.

. . . but I do know that the RAF thought at the time that the Gloster Gladiator was too slow to fight off the weak little German bombers in 1938.

No, they didn't, because it clearly wasn't. We discussed this extensively earlier in the thread. Are you trying a fringe reset here?

At least Churchill would have fought them on the beaches.

He undoubtedly would have, however, as we've also repeatedly discussed, no German troops were getting to the beaches in 1938, and the chances of that happening in 1939 would have been vanishingly small.

There is a discussion of this sort of thing at this website:

http://historum.com/war-military-history/57136-british-rearmament-program-before-ww2.html

This is wrong on several levels. First, again as we've previously discussed, there were four operational Hurricane squadrons, and a fifth converting (along with one converting to Spitfires). Second, as we keep pointing out to you, and you keep ignoring, there was no need to worry about Luftwaffe fighters in 1938, because they didn't have any that could reach Britain from Germany. And finally, again, the Gladiator was quite capable of dealing with any German bomber then in service, or that would be in service for the next year.

 

[SpitfireIX]

Have you ever compared the speed of the Gloster Gladiator to the German bombers at the time? From what I can make out there was not much difference.

Again, as we discussed earlier, you are comparing the maximum unloaded speed of the He 111 to the maximum speed of the Gladiator, when the appropriate comparison is the loaded formation cruise speed of the He 111 to the maximum speed of the Gladiator. But even with your inappropriate comparison, the Gladiator still has a significant advantage, especially as it would most likely have been diving to attack, thus gaining additional speed.

 

[SpitfireIX]

Klimax may be help me out here, but does he feel confident that the Czech air force in 1938 could have successfully taken on the Luftwaffe in 1938, which had modern aircraft, or prevented the bombing of Prague? There is a sensible comment about this on one of those military discussion forums:

As has been explained to you, and you have repeatedly ignored, the idea would not have been that Czechoslovakia could necessarily have been saved. The idea would have been to have destroyed as much German equipment and killed or wounded as many German soldiers and airmen as possible.

 

[dudalb]

Gladiators were quite capable of attacking un escorted bombers.

Firestorm London? No.

As I believe that Faith, Hope ,and Charity proved....

 

[SpitfireIX]

There doesn't seem to be much information about German bomber airfields. It must be possible somehow to dig up the facts about it. It's not a great secret now.

Luftwaffe Airfields 1935 - 1945

Remember, only airfields that were substantially completed by mid-1938 are available. Additionally, there was generally only one Gruppe (about 30 planes in 1938) per field, though a large base might have both a bomber Gruppe and a fighter Gruppe. Finally, the Luftwaffe would have had to have based some fighters near their bomber bases, in case the British or the French decided to attack them. [ETA: If a base didn't have bombers early in the war, it probably didn't have the infrastructure to support them in 1938.]

As I have said before, having a fighter escort was not of great importance to the Germans until the fast Hurricanes and Spitfires came along.

You were wrong then, and you're still wrong, as has been explained to you ad nauseam. Further, yet again, there were already four Hurricane squadrons operational.

The German bombers were perfectly capable of defending themselves, and fleeing back to Germany in a hurry.

Uh, no. The armament of all the Luftwaffe's bombers at this time was utterly pathetic. A fighter attacking from above and behind would have faced only a single 7.92 mm machine gun. The German leadership drew the incorrect lesson from the Spanish Civil War, believing that because their bombers hadn't suffered any serious air-to-air losses, that there was no need for stronger defensive weapons. They would be violently disabused of this notion during the Battle of Britain, and their bomber crews would pay the price. Just as they would have had they attempted to bomb Britain in 1938.

Further, as I mentioned, even after dropping its bombs, the He 111 still couldn't outrun a Gladiator, let alone a Hurricane.

There is some information at this website, but I am not sure how relevant it is <snip>

See above.

 

[Henri McPhee]

As I believe that Faith, Hope ,and Charity proved....

Chamberlain had the strange belief that you must be too strong to be attacked. In 1938 Britain was not too strong to be attacked, and that's a fact. You can't just declare war on a wing and a prayer, as Churchill intended because committing suicide is supposed to be honourable.