Split Thread WWII & Appeasement

In 1938 the Fallschrimjager Korps consisted of a single battalion until October 1938 when it was expanded to a division.


And that division consisted of only two regiments until the war started. Actually I think in mid-1938 there were two battalions, one Army and one Air Force, and one additional company. I imagine the two battalions formed the cadre for the new regiments.
 
You keep parroting this claim, but provide no supporting evidence. I renew one of the many questions you've failed to answer: How was the Gladiator, with its 60 mph speed advantage over a loaded He 111, inadequate to intercept unescorted German bombing raids? Further, as I keep pointing out, and you keep ignoring, Chamberlain mostly neglected the Army during the late 1930s. It was only after Hitler occupied what was left of Czechoslovakia that Chamberlain decided it might be a good idea to augment British ground forces.




Granting, arguendo as usual, that none of these countries "put up a strong fight," what part of "between Munich and the invasion of Poland, the German Army added about 60 infantry divisions, and six panzer divisions" was unclear?




Dangerous to the passengers, you mean. And I renew another question: From what port (or ports) was this hypothetical invasion force going to embark?




I renew yet a third question: How were the Gladiators going to be rendered non-operational?


So you're saying that Britain would have surrendered as soon as any German troops landed in England. That's simply wishful thinking on your part. Further, you can't have paratroopers (of which the Germans had at most two regiments available in 1938) landing in London unless you explain how the Gladiators would have been made non-operational.




Red herring. This has nothing to do with Chamberlain's decision to appease Hitler in 1938.

That's obvious - the German Me-262s would launch from Biggin Hill and shoot them down.

Personally I like Dave Roger's question -

The Germans had no Spitfires, yet they didn't surrender until 1945, how was this?
 
There were deficiencies in the British armed forces, and air defence capability, in 1938
The greatest deficiency was called "Gamelin". But go on.
It would have been unsound to go to war in 1938, whatever Churchill might have said about the matter later on. Why didn't the Danes and the Netherlands and France and Poland put up a strong fight then, when weak little Germany was at their throat, and Rotterdam and Warsaw were bombed?
Didn't France and Poland put up a strong fight then? And you conveniently forget here the strong build-up of the German forces between 1938 and 1939 or 1940.

A string of barges could be dangerous if there was no German type Atlantic wall on the British coastline, and the RAF Gloster Gladiators were not operational.
Where would they have gotten the barges? IRL, the Germans requisitioned Dutch, Belgian and French barges.

It would have been a shock to the system to find German troops landing at Bexhill on Sea, and in the London parks, and Churchill would have been quickly fleeing to America rather than fighting them on the beaches. General Alan Brooke often flatly disagreed with Churchill.
The paratroopers landing in the Netherlands on 10 May 1940 were quickly neutralized. Please tell me how the German paratroops would have posed a threat to the UK one and a half years earlier.


That's because they wouldn't have been coming over the beaches; they'd have neede a trans-dimensional portal or the ferrying services of alien space bats. Germany invading Britain in 1938 is the purest fantasy, and Germany defeating Britain in a week even more so.
That phrase was specifically coined for alt-history scenarios where Sealion succeeds, wasn't it?
 
The greatest deficiency was called "Gamelin". But go on.

The French high command were poor, but against a German army in Spring 1939 constrained by a lack of armour to a more conventional assault I suspect they would have been good enough. The Ardennes attack was a massive gamble that could have gone wrong in so many ways and without the considerable upgrades the Wehrmacht obtained between 1938 and 1940 I don't think its possible.

An attack on France in 1938, which Henri seems to imply, is all but impossible. After Poland when Hitler wanted the army to attack France immediately the army resisted because it had used up a large part of its available supplies of fuel and ammo and the armoured units were at seriously reduced strength, in large part because of wear and tear. There is no way that after fighting the Czechs they are going to pivot and attack France in the winter of 1938-9.
 
An attack on France in 38 would have used the old Schlieffen Plan.
It wasn't until late 39 that Manstein developed his Ardennes plan.
 
An attack on France in 38 would have used the old Schlieffen Plan.
It wasn't until late 39 that Manstein developed his Ardennes plan.

And it wasn't accepted until February 1940, helped by the fact that the details of the original plan fell into Allied hands.
 
The French high command were poor, but against a German army in Spring 1939 constrained by a lack of armour to a more conventional assault I suspect they would have been good enough. The Ardennes attack was a massive gamble that could have gone wrong in so many ways and without the considerable upgrades the Wehrmacht obtained between 1938 and 1940 I don't think its possible.

An attack on France in 1938, which Henri seems to imply, is all but impossible. After Poland when Hitler wanted the army to attack France immediately the army resisted because it had used up a large part of its available supplies of fuel and ammo and the armoured units were at seriously reduced strength, in large part because of wear and tear. There is no way that after fighting the Czechs they are going to pivot and attack France in the winter of 1938-9.
Fair enough. My point was that the Czechs wouldn't hold out eventually against the Germans in 1938, if the French ẃouldn't fast start putting pressure on the Western front. With Gamelin at the helm, there was no chance of a genuine French offensive, even if it had been a walk-over.

An attack on France in 38 would have used the old Schlieffen Plan.
It wasn't until late 39 that Manstein developed his Ardennes plan.
Good point, a reprise of the Schlieffen plan wouldn't have worked either because the French plans were prepared for that.
 
The French high command were poor, but against a German army in Spring 1939 constrained by a lack of armour to a more conventional assault I suspect they would have been good enough. The Ardennes attack was a massive gamble that could have gone wrong in so many ways and without the considerable upgrades the Wehrmacht obtained between 1938 and 1940 I don't think its possible.

An attack on France in 1938, which Henri seems to imply, is all but impossible. After Poland when Hitler wanted the army to attack France immediately the army resisted because it had used up a large part of its available supplies of fuel and ammo and the armoured units were at seriously reduced strength, in large part because of wear and tear. There is no way that after fighting the Czechs they are going to pivot and attack France in the winter of 1938-9.

There was a book published in 2001 called Strange Victory by Ernest R. May. The Book argued that the German victory over France in 1940 was anything but inevitable and was due to a whole series of factors. In fact while describing the military events the author makes it clear that at certain times the German attack could have failed. The whole thing was a good deal more chancy than it appears in retrospect.

The book The Wages of Destruction by Adam Tooze, also makes the same point from the point of view of economics.

Hitler had too repeatedly postpone the attack on France due to lack of preparation and the weather. The initial attack plan was for the main thrust through Belgium. Both the Brits and the French had a plan to deal with that because they expected that. Then Hitler adopted Manstein's plan which used the British / French plan against the British / French.

The German Armed forces were smaller in 1938 than in 1939. While destroying the armed forces of Czechoslovakia their western front would have been very vulnerable and exposed to attack.

It was the above that got the German Generals to insist that Hitler accept Chamberlain's mediation rather than the war Hitler really wanted with Czechoslovakia. The German generals at the time were convinced that war under those circumstances would be disastrous. And despite Henri's bleating it was not "cloud koo koo land" that German generals were planning a coup if Hitler launched a war. Hitler was and they were convinced it would be a disaster under the circumstances. It is simply a fact that before Chamberlain flew to Munich they tried to get in touch with the British. They were rebuffed, ignored.

Hitler emerged from Munich with his prestige enormously enhanced, and in possession of the significant economic resources of Czechoslovakia, (Including its excellent armaments industry), and the extension of Nazis influence into Eastern Europe.

When Hitler invaded Poland in 1939, the German generals now felt they had more or less adequate forces to guard the western frontier and so there was little pressure on Hitler to avoid going to war from this group. Also Munich had discredited, for the time being, any one who contemplated any sort of coup against the regime. So Hitler didn't have to worry about any coup plots. Certainly this time there was no approach to the British or French by disaffected German generals.

As for Chamberlain buying time. Henri in a earlier posting dismissed the point that Chamberlain showed a certain disregard of the possibility of war with Germany by ending the Treaty ports arrangement with the Republic of Ireland. The argument boiled to a post hoc argument that it didn't really make much of difference in the war. Aside from being post hoc. Just how would Chamberlain know this? A great many people including many in the British navy during the war would have vehemently disagreed. It in fact made their task more difficult. (See History of the Second World War by Basil Liddell Hart, and Hitler's U-Boat War, by Clay Blair.) In fact the British had plans to invade and occupy the republic of Ireland if things got really bad in the submarine war.

Chamberlain only got more serious about beefing up the British military after Hitler's occupation of Prague, which negated the Munich agreement. Even so he was filled with ideas of continuing appeasement, (Giving Germany Some of Portugal's African colonies for one.), and so even after the occupation of Prague Chamberlain allowed Germany to take the Czech gold reserves held in the Bank of England in London.

And has mentioned before even after Hitler attacked Poland Chamberlain tried to avoid declaring war on Germany and had to be forced to do so by his Cabinet.
 
That phrase was specifically coined for alt-history scenarios where Sealion succeeds, wasn't it?

So far as I'm aware, yes; I think it originated on the Usenet alternative history newsgroup, and was typically abbreviated to ASB. I thought it was about time it came into this conversation.

Dave
 
That's because they wouldn't have been coming over the beaches; they'd have neede a trans-dimensional portal or the ferrying services of alien space bats. Germany invading Britain in 1938 is the purest fantasy, and Germany defeating Britain in a week even more so.

Dave

That phrase was specifically coined for alt-history scenarios where Sealion succeeds, wasn't it?

So far as I'm aware, yes; I think it originated on the Usenet alternative history newsgroup, and was typically abbreviated to ASB. I thought it was about time it came into this conversation.

Dave

Yes, it did originate on the Usenet group soc.history.what-if and at that time specifically referred to Operation Sealion. Since then the usage has proliferated. There is an entire subforum on the alternatehistory.com forum called "Alien Space Bats and Other Magic" which has a large number of such alternative timelines.

:blackcat:
 
Yes, it did originate on the Usenet group soc.history.what-if and at that time specifically referred to Operation Sealion. Since then the usage has proliferated. There is an entire subforum on the alternatehistory.com forum called "Alien Space Bats and Other Magic" which has a large number of such alternative timelines.

:blackcat:

For what it's worth, I did invite Henri to write up his scenario and post it on alternatehistory.com for their analysis. I wonder why he hasn't?

:blackcat:
 
Chamberlain only got more serious about beefing up the British military after Hitler's occupation of Prague, which negated the Munich agreement. Even so he was filled with ideas of continuing appeasement, (Giving Germany Some of Portugal's African colonies for one.), and so even after the occupation of Prague Chamberlain allowed Germany to take the Czech gold reserves held in the Bank of England in London.

And has mentioned before even after Hitler attacked Poland Chamberlain tried to avoid declaring war on Germany and had to be forced to do so by his Cabinet.

Chamberlain gave Poland a guarantee when the Germans marched in to Prague and broke the Munich agreement, which I think was about March 1939. That's not appeasement. That made war inevitable, whatever all Chamberlain's empty waffle was about the matter, and his agreements with Ireland. General Alan Brooke was not an armchair strategist, or armchair admiral, like the posters on this forum, and he was definitely expecting a German invasion any day now in September 1940.

There is a bit about Chamberlain at this website. Historians disagree about the matter:

https://www.intelligencesquared.com/events/neville-chamberlain/

If ever a politician got a bum rap it’s Neville Chamberlain. He has gone down in history as the British prime minster whose policy of appeasement in the 1930s allowed the Nazis to flourish unopposed. He has never been forgiven for ceding part of Czechoslovakia to Hitler in the Munich Agreement of September 1938, and for returning home triumphantly declaring “peace for our time”. The very word “appeasement” is now synonymous with him, signifying a craven refusal to stand up to bullies and aggressors. What a contrast to Winston Churchill, the man who took over as prime minister and who has ever since been credited with restoring Britain’s backbone.

But is the standard verdict on Chamberlain a fair one? After all, memories of the slaughter of the First World War were still fresh in the minds of the British, who were desperate to avoid another conflagration. And anyway what choice did Chamberlain have in 1938? There’s a good case for arguing that the delay in hostilities engineered at Munich allowed time for military and air power to be strengthened.
 
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For what it's worth, I did invite Henri to write up his scenario and post it on alternatehistory.com for their analysis. I wonder why he hasn't?

:blackcat:

We're still waiting for his scenario how, in autumn 1938, Germany defeats Britain within a week, with the swastika flag waving from the Tower. :rolleyes:
 
Chamberlain gave Poland a guarantee when the Germans marched in to Prague and broke the Munich agreement, which I think was about March 1939. That's not appeasement. That made war inevitable, whatever all Chamberlain's empty waffle was about the matter, and his agreements with Ireland. General Alan Brooke was not an armchair strategist, or armchair admiral, like the posters on this forum, and he was definitely expecting a German invasion any day now in September 1940.

There is a bit about Chamberlain at this website. Historians disagree about the matter:

https://www.intelligencesquared.com/events/neville-chamberlain/
That's all the text there and then a hour-long video. Could you tell us if the Chamberlain defenders in that video address:
1) the build-up of the Wehrmacht in the meantime, 60 infantry and half a dozen panzer divisions
2) the use by the Wehrmacht of Czech material, in particular the 35(t) and 38(t)
3) the looting by the Nazis of the Czech gold reserves

and then compare the advantages the Nazis got in the year between Munich and Poland with those that Britain got?

Otherwise, it seems fairly pointless to watch the video.
 
I agree that there are arguments on both sides for appeasement, but it's like this Brexit debate now where a politician can't be completely out of touch with reality. The sad fact is that Britain was militarily weak in 1938, and we could not rely on the Czechs or the French to protect us from invasion.

Chamberlain was fully aware of the military advice he was getting, and the information from our Secret Service about Hitler's intentions with regard to Russia.

This is an argument from a historian, I think Glyn Stone, which makes sense to me:

https://davidlowtherblog.wordpress.com/2013/07/25/neville-chamberlain-did-the-wrong-thing-2/

Professor Stone, speaking for the motion, believed that the alternative to appeasement was war with Great Britain part of a grand alliance, possibly involving the USA and the Soviet Union as well as our traditional ally France. Professor Stone said that he believed that the USA would not join such an alliance, having recently passed their Neutrality Act, the USSR were in suffering from Stalin’s purges which left them militarily weak and France were feeble after years of political instability. This left Chamberlain with only one option; appeasement.
 
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I agree that there are arguments on both sides for appeasement

Yes, but the facts tend to favour the Germans doing rather better out of it than the British.


But it's like this Brexit debate now where a politician can't be completely out of touch with reality.

Irrelevant nonsense.

The sad fact is that Britain was militarily weak in 1938, and we could not rely on the Czechs or the French to protect us from invasion.

No that is not a fact, its you repeating an assertion that actually contradicts the facts of the situation.

Chamberlain was fully aware of the military advice he was getting, and the information from our Secret Service about Hitler's intentions with regard to Russia.


This is getting tiresome Henri, Hitler's general intentions towards Russia were public knowledge, and the detailed planning for Barbarossa didn't even begin until after Chamberlain was dead, please stop repeating this nonsensical statement.

This is an argument from a historian, I think Glyn Stone, which makes sense to me:

And you thoroughly misrepresent the linked article again. It is a piece about a debate on Chamberlain's policy, so of course one person was arguing the case for his policy. What was the conclusion of the debate? The title 'NEVILLE CHAMBERLAIN DID THE WRONG THING' might have been a clue to most people, but in a more revealing quote:

Ultimately I came down on the side of the anti-appeasers and believed we should have stood up to Hitler at Munich. Sir Richard told us that the German General Staff felt that the Wehrmacht were unprepared for war and may well have tried to get rid of Hitler had he gone to war over Czechoslovakia. We have evidence of this from sources inside the German Embassy who, as Sir Richard revealed, communicated all kinds of information to Klop Ustinov, former Press Officer at the embassy and father of Sir Peter. Ustinov in turn passed this information to the Foreign Office. It’s inconceivable that Chamberlain was unaware of this.

Yet again you quote an article that actually CONTRADICTS your position by cherry-picking in a desperate attempt to make it seem like it supports you. Given the frequency with which you have done this I have to wonder if this is deliberate on your part or if you genuinely don't read more than one paragraph of any article you link.
 
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The sad fact is that Britain was militarily weak in 1938, and we could not rely on the Czechs or the French to protect us from invasion.
What invasion? You still haven't spelled out how that worked.
1) From which ports? The nearest German port would be Emden and that's 437km (236nm) by sea to Britain.
2) With what barges? IRL, the Germans requisitioned some 2,000 barges from the Netherlands, Belgium and northern France and adjusted them for their intended goal in Sealion.

And oh, the last successful hostile invasion of England/Britain was in 1066.
Dauphin Louis' invasion of 1210 (?) was successful but he had the support of many of the barons. William of Orange's invasion of 1688 had the support of Parliament. The 1667 Raid on Chatham was successful but not an invasion, only a raid to destroy the fleet and the docks. All other invasion attempts, like the one of Napoleon in Wales, were all nipped in the bud.


Britain didn't need anyone to protect them from invasion; the Germans simply couldn't pull it off.

Chamberlain was fully aware of the military advice he was getting, and the information from our Secret Service about Hitler's intentions with regard to Russia.

This is an argument from a historian, I think Glyn Stone, which makes sense to me:

https://davidlowtherblog.wordpress.com/2013/07/25/neville-chamberlain-did-the-wrong-thing-2/
The conclusion of the blogger stands in stark contrast to your picture of Chamberlain:
Chamberlain’s foreign policy was dictated by his hatred of communism, his lack of experience in foreign affairs and his inexorable belief is his own infallibility. He was a vain, naïve and arrogant man who led us into war.
 

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