Split Thread WWII & Appeasement

[Henri McPhee]

In fairness, four of those squadrons were earmarked for France, to protect the BEF. However, as has been amply demonstrated, the Gladiator was perfectly capable of dealing with any unescorted German air raids on London.

I just think that's being complacent. The Gloster Gladiator was too slow for the RAF and it was something that gave Chamberlain pause for thought, if not Churchill:

https://www.h2g2.com/approved_entry/A10223885

An Old Airplane for a New War

The Gloster Gladiator was the RAF's last biplane fighter and at the outbreak of the Second World War, only four home-based RAF fighter squadrons were still equipped with the aircraft - the Spitfire and Hurricane were already phasing out the older biplane. Two Gladiator squadrons, 607 and 615, were sent to France as part of the British Expeditionary Force in 1939.

In just ten days of hard fighting following the opening of the German assault on 10 May, 1940, all the aircraft were destroyed. In a desperate attempt to provide fighter cover for the evacuation of Dunkirk, a detachment of Gladiators known as 'G' Flight was formed at RAF Manston in late May. Then when the Battle of Britain was being fought, only two home-based units used the Gladiator operationally: 247 Squadron at RAF Exeter and RAF Roborough and 804 Squadron, Fleet Air Arm at Hatston in Scotland.

 

[Dave Rogers]

I just think that's being complacent. The Gloster Gladiator was too slow for the RAF and it was something that gave Chamberlain pause for thought, if not Churchill:

https://www.h2g2.com/approved_entry/A10223885

From your own source:

Gladiators of the Norwegian Jagevingen3 at Fornebu Airport, consisting of seven operational biplanes, managed to shoot down a total of five German aircraft on 9 April, 1940. The Jagevingen claimed two Messerschmitt Bf-110 fighters, two Heinkel He-111 heavy bombers and a Junkers Ju-52 transport plane, with only one Gladiator being shot down.

The He-111 was the only plane the Germans had in 1938 that could haul anything like a sensible bombload all the way across the North Sea, and it looks like Gladiators were fast enough to shoot them down in 1940. Were Gladiators slower or He-111s faster in 1938?

And we still haven't seen how German bombers are supposed to destroy half of 25 British cities or large towns in a week. They'd have to do four a day, which would leave them about 25 bombers each at maximum range. Again, arithmetically lunatic (to borrow a phrase from another poster).

Dave

 

[Henri McPhee]

There was some silly TV documentary on yesterday which said that Halifax and Chamberlain proposed peace negotiations at a Cabinet meeting in May 1940, which Churchill then heroically refused. It was more complex than that, and another diplomatic poker game. Chamberlain was quoted once as saying Hitler had missed the bus:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_1940_War_Cabinet_crisis

Chamberlain now spoke out in defence of Halifax's peace proposal: "While [it is] agreed that the proposed approach would not serve any useful purpose, [I think] that we ought to go a little further with it, in order to keep the French in a good temper... our reply should not be a complete refusal." He was against it "at the present time" but thought the situation might change "even in a week".[17] Churchill replied that "if worst came to the worst, it would not be a bad thing for this country to go down fighting for the other countries which had been overcome by Nazi tyranny".

 

[SpitfireIX]

I just think that's being complacent. The Gloster Gladiator was too slow for the RAF and it was something that gave Chamberlain pause for thought, if not Churchill:

https://www.h2g2.com/approved_entry/A10223885

Your continued repetition of this "too slow" mantra will not magically make it true. The Gladiator was fast enough to catch the He 111 and the Do 17, as has been explained to you ad nauseam. Further, the Gladiators that were lost during the Battle of France and the evacuation of Dunkirk were almost all shot down by Me 109s, which, as has also been explained to you ad nauseam, could not reach England until Germany captured airbases in France. Fail.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Chamberlain was quoted once as saying Hitler had missed the bus:

That's right by five minutes. It was the last one as well.
He had to get a Cab home and they charge an extra 10 Marks after midnight.

 

[jimbob]

Your continued repetition of this "too slow" mantra will not magically make it true. The Gladiator was fast enough to catch the He 111 and the Do 17, as has been explained to you ad nauseam. Further, the Gladiators that were lost during the Battle of France and the evacuation of Dunkirk were almost all shot down by Me 109s, which, as has also been explained to you ad nauseam, could not reach England until Germany captured airbases in France. Fail.

But what if the He 111 flew over Britain without any bombs, eh? It could be faster then.

 

[geoman]

But what if the He 111 flew over Britain without any bombs, eh? It could be faster then.

Even better, what if the Heinkels stayed in Germany and the GGs had to fly across the North Sea to them? Voila, all GGs get shot down or run out of fuel, Britain (with its notable soft spot for old biplanes) becomes depressed and surrenders within, let’s say, seven days. Problem solved!

 

[jimbob]

Even better, what if the Heinkels stayed in Germany and the GGs had to fly across the North Sea to them? Voila, all GGs get shot down or run out of fuel, Britain (with its notable soft spot for old biplanes) becomes depressed and surrenders within, let’s say, seven days. Problem solved!

Don't be silly - biplanes had a lot of range, Amy Johnson flew to Australia

Here's some waffle about that

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_flight_of_Alcock_and_Brown

 

[HansMustermann]

In 1938 the fastest aircraft in the world was the Westland Whirlwind twin engine fighter.
It had four cannons in the nose.
Unfortunately it was fitted with the chronically unreliable Rolls Royce Peregrine engines as a result development was delayed. In the end only 3 squadrons were ever equipped and it was withdrawn in 1943
It is my favourite piston engined aircraft

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westland_Whirlwind_(fighter)

Admittedly that would have been a better example for my point, but I think the general point still stands: the RAF had aircraft that could catch any bomber, and whose production could be ramped up in a pinch.

 

[Garrison]

I just think that's being complacent.

But since you've admitted:

I have never made a profound study of the matter

Why should what you think be given any weight?

The Gloster Gladiator was too slow for the RAF

There is a difference between the RAF wanting more capable fighters, able to engage the latest German fighters, and the existing ones being inadequate. As others have pointed out, quoting your own sources, the Gladiator was perfectly capable of engaging any German aircraft that could reach Britain in 1938. of course this assumes that the Luftwaffe wouldn't have been busy carrying out the task it was intended for, tactical support of the ground troops.

And it was something that gave Chamberlain pause for thought, if not Churchill:

https://www.h2g2.com/approved_entry/A10223885

And again a demonstration of ignorance on your part, Churchill was one of those calling for the RAF to be strengthened while Chamberlain was still refusing to take the threat from Hitler seriously.

 

[dudalb]

That's right by five minutes. It was the last one as well.
He had to get a Cab home and they charge an extra 10 Marks after midnight.

Chamberlain made the "Hitler Missed The Bus" remark just a day before Hitler invaded Norway.....

 

[Garrison]

Chamberlain made the "Hitler Missed The Bus" remark just a day before Hitler invaded Norway.....

It's even worse than that. Here's the full quote:

The result was that when war did break out German preparations were far ahead of our own, and it was natural then to expect that the enemy would take advantage of his initial superiority to make an endeavour to overwhelm us and France before we had time to make good our deficiencies. Is it not a very extraordinary thing that no such attempt was made? Whatever may be the reason—whether it was that Hitler thought he might get away with what he had got without fighting for it, or whether it was that after all the preparations were not sufficiently complete—however, one thing is certain: he missed the bus.

He was actually asserting that Germany had missed its chance to defeat Britain and France, this from the same man who was calling for peace talks two months later. if Britain did benefit from Munich its hard to escape the conclusion that was despite Chamberlain rather than because of him.

 

[Andy_Ross]

He was right though, Hitler didn't defeat Britain.

 

[lobosrul5]

He was right though, Hitler didn't defeat Britain.

If only Hitler had launched Sealion in early Oct 1938, just missed that bus

 

[Major Major]

He was right though, Hitler didn't defeat Britain.

If only Hitler had launched Sealion in early Oct 1938, just missed that bus

Maybe he hadn't read Das Rätsel der Sandbank?

 

[ddt]

Even better, what if the Heinkels stayed in Germany and the GGs had to fly across the North Sea to them? Voila, all GGs get shot down or run out of fuel, Britain (with its notable soft spot for old biplanes) becomes depressed and surrenders within, let’s say, seven days. Problem solved!

Don't be silly - biplanes had a lot of range, Amy Johnson flew to Australia

And they crippled the Italian fleet.

 

[jimbob]

Even better, what if the Heinkels stayed in Germany and the GGs had to fly across the North Sea to them? Voila, all GGs get shot down or run out of fuel, Britain (with its notable soft spot for old biplanes) becomes depressed and surrenders within, let’s say, seven days. Problem solved!

Don't be silly - biplanes had a lot of range, Amy Johnson flew to Australia

And they crippled the Italian fleet.

I protest - that is an accurate statement supported by your link. I hope you spotted what my link was.

 

[Henri McPhee]

The point is that the bombers did get through even if the Luftwaffe had production problems with the Heinkel. The Gloster Gladiator was not much use. The German bombers were unescorted to start off with during the Battle of Britain. It was only after losses from Hurricanes and Spitfires that Goering ordered his bombers to be escorted. I agree that it could be the threat from bombing might have been exaggerated during the 1930s, but there were military experts at the time who thought it might win the war for Germany.

You force your enemy to accept your will with the minimum damage to the wealth of the world, either by force or diplomatically. Personally, I think all this carpet bombing in Iraq and Syria is very unfair on civilians, and it's the fault of Isis. Their cities may never recover.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/timelines/zqdvcwx

The first of 499 German bomber planes with about 30,000 incendiaries are already over the city boundaries.
Coventry was a city that was rich with industry; creating planes, cars, ammunition and much more for the war effort. This made it a prime target for German bombers. Many of the factories were located alongside the canal. The clear moonlight reflected in its waters and guided them to the heart of the city.

 

[Garrison]

The point is that the bombers did get through even if the Luftwaffe had production problems with the Heinkel.

The major production problem was the prototype didn't fly until 1939 and the He-177 didn't enter service until 1942, but expecting you to admit to yet another mistake would be futile at this point.

The Gloster Gladiator was not much use. The German bombers were unescorted to start off with during the Battle of Britain.

Instead you double down. This is so spectacularly wrong as to make the He-177 post look like a model of well researched fact. What Goering did was order the fighters to change their tactics and remain closer to the bombers. Early in the BoB the fighters had been allowed to act independently. Goering ordered them to remain close to the bombers, which reduced bomber losses at the expense of throwing away much of the manoeuvrability of the Bf109.

The only time the Luftwaffe bombers attacked without fighter cover was when Luftflotte 5 launched an attack in the misguided belief that the RAF had stripped fighters from the north to shore up the defences around London and they were cut to pieces.

 

[Henri McPhee]

I still think it's complacent to suggest that there was no danger of Britain being invaded in 1938, or that Britain could not be bombed into submission in 1938. Baldwin had the right idea with his "the bomber will always get through" theory even though what actually happened was that there were large bomber losses and casualties by the German and British and American air forces later on. I agree that there were disagreements within the RAF about fighter aircraft tactics, but Chamberlain had right judgment to provide time for the RAF to get organised for war. Churchill took the political credit as usual for the Spitfires and Hurricanes, when in fact he had nothing to do with it.

There is an interesting website which discusses Baldwin and his bomber will get through theory:

https://airminded.org/2007/11/10/the-bomber-will-always-get-through/