Split Thread WWII & Appeasement

[HansMustermann]

Well, yes, but nevertheless, what I'm trying to say is that the RAF could have easily filled even that short wait with other aircraft.

 

[Henri McPhee]

E.g., while we talk about Hurricanes and Spits and so on, what the RAF ALSO had since 1937 was the Bristol Blenheim which had demonstrated a top speed of 307mph. It wasn't very agile as a fighter against escorted bombers by '40, but it could mess up an unescorted bomber real good. And as was proven later, it could use higher caliber auto-cannons in the nose, with none of the problems that initial experiments with putting them in the wings of lighter planes had.

I could give other examples, but basically everyone seems so enchanted by the really good fighters, that they forget that the UK had about two dozen different fighter models during and right before the war. Were they as good as Spit or a Hurricane? Well, no. But if you needed something to shoot bombers out of the sky in '38, you could jolly well ramp up production of those until someone designs a Spit.

I must admit I have never made a profound study of the matter, but it strikes me that it is arithmetically lunatic to suggest that the Gloster Gladiator, or even Bristol Blenheim, could come within spitting, or sniffing, distance of German bombers in 1938. The Gloster Gladiator had a maximum speed of 257 mph. The German bombers would have been on their way home over the North sea. Their bombers would have got through and bombed London in the same way as Warsaw and Rotterdam were bombed by the Germans.

There is some waffle about this on a Wikipedia website:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_177

This was a formidable specification, calling as it did for an aircraft able to outrun any modern fighter – as was expected with the top speeds of the main force Schnellbomber concept – and outperform, by a considerable margin, any bomber then in service. On 2 June 1937, Heinkel Flugzeugwerke received instructions to proceed with construction of a full-scale mock-up of its Projekt 1041 Bomber A. That was completed in November 1937, and on 5 November 1937 it was allocated the official RLM airframe type number "8-177", the same day that the Luftwaffe High Command (OKL) stipulated that the new design should possess sufficient structural strength to enable it to undertake medium-degree diving attacks.[5] Heinkel Flugzeugwerke's estimated performance figures for Projekt 1041 included a top speed of 550 km/h (342 mph) at 5,500 m (18,050 ft) and a loaded weight of 27,000 kg (59,500 lb). In order to achieve these estimates, Heinkel's chief designer, Siegfried Günter, employed several revolutionary features.

 

[Dave Rogers]

And we have another example of the perfect Henri post: ignore everything anyone's said, make a bare assertion, then offer as evidence something completely irrelevant that fails to back the point up whatsoever. I'll happily agree that, if the He177 had actually been reliable enough (which it never actually was, due in part to the dive-bombing requirement) to carry out a strategic bombing campaign over Britain, Gloster Gladiators and Bristol Blenheims wouldn't have done a good job of intercepting it, but since that scenario relies on time-travelling Nazis I'd have to file it under "Implausible".

Dave

 

[theprestige]

Henri, how does the the He 177 help the Germans defeat the UK in 1938?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Also, just to make it clear, EVERYONE before the war had this holy grail idea of the bomber that's too fast to be intercepted. You have to understand though that, just like the holy grail, it's a fundamentally impossible to achieve idea. Because, if you think about it, if you manage to actually make an airframe that's faster with two (or four) engines than an existing interceptor, you can take the same airframe, eliminate the extra bomb load and crew, and put cannons in its nose, and call it a fighter. Now you have a fighter that's just as fast.

And all countries in the world had done just that: make a twin engine fighter if the technology ain't there yet for a single engine to keep up with a given role.

E.g., while we talk about Hurricanes and Spits and so on, what the RAF ALSO had since 1937 was the Bristol Blenheim which had demonstrated a top speed of 307mph. It wasn't very agile as a fighter against escorted bombers by '40, but it could mess up an unescorted bomber real good. And as was proven later, it could use higher caliber auto-cannons in the nose, with none of the problems that initial experiments with putting them in the wings of lighter planes had.

I could give other examples, but basically everyone seems so enchanted by the really good fighters, that they forget that the UK had about two dozen different fighter models during and right before the war. Were they as good as Spit or a Hurricane? Well, no. But if you needed something to shoot bombers out of the sky in '38, you could jolly well ramp up production of those until someone designs a Spit.

In 1938 the fastest aircraft in the world was the Westland Whirlwind twin engine fighter.
It had four cannons in the nose.
Unfortunately it was fitted with the chronically unreliable Rolls Royce Peregrine engines as a result development was delayed. In the end only 3 squadrons were ever equipped and it was withdrawn in 1943
It is my favourite piston engined aircraft

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westland_Whirlwind_(fighter)

 

[Tolls]

I must admit I have never made a profound study of the matter ..

As is made clear in the very next bit of your post:

There is some waffle about this on a Wikipedia website:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_177

There's a little side-bar on these wiki pages summarising the sircraft data. This includes (for the Heinkel you reference) the following:

Introduction 1942

So what in merry hell does this aircraft have to do with German bombers in 1938?!

 

[Dave Rogers]

Henri, in over three years of unrelenting strategic bombing, the RAF destroyed 33% of the built up areas of Berlin, 61% of Cologne, 54% of Dortmund, 59% of Dresden, 64% of Dusseldorf, 50% of Essen, 52% of Frankfurt, 75% of Hamburg, 20% of Leipzig, 42% of Munich, 83% of Bochum, 60% of Bremen, 41% of Chemniz, 61% of Dessau, 48% of Duisburg, 67% of Hagen, 60% of Hanover, 69% of Kassel, 50% of Kiel, 80% of Mainz, 41% of Magdeburg, 64% of Mannheim, 51% of Nuremberg, 53% of Stettin and 46% of Stuttgart, and that wasn't enough to make Germany surrender. With no more than a tenth of the force available to Bomber Command - in fact, considerably less in 1938 - do you honestly think the Luftwaffe could have done more than that in one week?

That, I think, is arithmetically lunatic.

Dave

 

[Hubert Cumberdale]

That wait would be fairly short since design was under way for years already and production started in 1938.

Yup, with 1 squadron converting to Spitfires at the time of Munich, as well as 3 or 4 squadrons of Hurricanes with more converting.

 

[SpitfireIX]

I must admit I have never made a profound study of the matter, but it strikes me that it is arithmetically lunatic to suggest that the Gloster Gladiator, or even Bristol Blenheim, could come within spitting, or sniffing, distance of German bombers in 1938. The Gloster Gladiator had a maximum speed of 257 mph. The German bombers would have been on their way home over the North sea. Their bombers would have got through and bombed London in the same way as Warsaw and Rotterdam were bombed by the Germans.

What part of "The first five stations, covering the approaches to London, were installed by 1937 and began full-time operation in 1938" was unclear?

Further, there are means other than radar of detecting incoming air raids. Even granting, arguendo, that German bombers could have reached Britain without having to overfly any other Allied or neutral countries, picket boats and reconnaissance aircraft could have been used to provide early warning. And acoustic detection equipment could have given at least a few minutes' notice.

 

[jimbob]

What part of "The first five stations, covering the approaches to London, were installed by 1937 and began full-time operation in 1938" was unclear?

Further, there are means other than radar of detecting incoming air raids. Even granting, arguendo, that German bombers could have reached Britain without having to overfly any other Allied or neutral countries, picket boats and reconnaissance aircraft could have been used to provide early warning. And acoustic detection equipment could have given at least a few minutes' notice.

Yes but that is only a minor quibble when the proposed bomber was only introduced into service four years after 1938, and was far from serviceable even then.

From Henri's Wiki link

"Only thirteen missions were flown, and seven He 177s were lost to fire without any action attributable to the enemy."

 

[SpitfireIX]

Yup, with 1 squadron converting to Spitfires at the time of Munich, as well as 3 or 4 squadrons of Hurricanes with more converting.

In fairness, four of those squadrons were earmarked for France, to protect the BEF. However, as has been amply demonstrated, the Gladiator was perfectly capable of dealing with any unescorted German air raids on London.

 

[SpitfireIX]

Yes but that is only a minor quibble when the proposed bomber was only introduced into service four years after 1938, and was far from serviceable even then.

From Henri's Wiki link

"Only thirteen missions were flown, and seven He 177s were lost to fire without any action attributable to the enemy."

I had assumed that Henri was claiming that the Gladiators wouldn't have been able to intercept the He 111s and Do 17s before they dropped their bombs due to a lack of early warning capability, and that the He 177 "waffle" was just a non sequitur. Possibly I was giving him too much credit.

 

[jimbob]

What part of "The first five stations, covering the approaches to London, were installed by 1937 and began full-time operation in 1938" was unclear?

Further, there are means other than radar of detecting incoming air raids. Even granting, arguendo, that German bombers could have reached Britain without having to overfly any other Allied or neutral countries, picket boats and reconnaissance aircraft could have been used to provide early warning. And acoustic detection equipment could have given at least a few minutes' notice.

I had assumed that Henri was claiming that the Gladiators wouldn't have been able to intercept the He 111s and Do 17s before they dropped their bombs due to a lack of early warning capability, and that the He 177 "waffle" was just a non sequitur. Possibly I was giving him too much credit.

Fair enough, whereupon the lack of capability of the aircraft becomes important, as opposed to its lack of existence.

 

[Rincewind]

Yes but that is only a minor quibble when the proposed bomber was only introduced into service four years after 1938, and was far from serviceable even then.

From Henri's Wiki link

"Only thirteen missions were flown, and seven He 177s were lost to fire without any action attributable to the enemy."

The He177 was designed with four engines, but to cut down drag, they were paired together. This was the cause of the fires, IIRC.

And Henri - apparently he didn't read my post earlier - keeps ignoring the fact that bombers, especially loaded bombers, used their cruising speed, generally in the region of 75% of their top speed.

 

[SpitfireIX]

The He177 was designed with four engines, but to cut down drag, they were paired together. This was the cause of the fires, IIRC.

And Henri - apparently he didn't read my post earlier - keeps ignoring the fact that bombers, especially loaded bombers, used their cruising speed, generally in the region of 75% of their top speed.

In the case of a loaded He 111, it was more like 65%. Further, there was generally a small speed reduction due to flying in formation.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Don't forget head winds.
If the flight is slowed by a head wind more fuel is used.

 

[Tolls]

Don't forget head winds.
If the flight is slowed by a head wind more fuel is used.

Doesn't the wind more often blow from the West/South West?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Doesn't the wind more often blow from the West/South West?

Yes but that means it's still a factor in the fuel calculations.

 

[Tolls]

Yes but that means it's still a factor in the fuel calculations.

Well, I was thinking more that interception would be easier when they were coming in, slowly and fully laden, and into the wind.

I will admit to not really thinking about it too much, though.

I think this is the point where I refer to some random weblink?

 

[lobosrul5]

What part of "The first five stations, covering the approaches to London, were installed by 1937 and began full-time operation in 1938" was unclear?

Further, there are means other than radar of detecting incoming air raids. Even granting, arguendo, that German bombers could have reached Britain without having to overfly any other Allied or neutral countries, picket boats and reconnaissance aircraft could have been used to provide early warning. And acoustic detection equipment could have given at least a few minutes' notice.

Yes, either German bombers fly from bases in the NW corner of Germany, around Bremen or Willhelmshaven, then go N a bit and turn W to get to Britain. This puts their Do-17 in range of just a bit of eastern England. OR, they fly over neutral Belgium/Netherlands violating their sovereignty. Now, might that cause those countries to decide to join the allies? Either way, bomber formations have been spotted. There basically is no U-boat threat in '38, and Kriegsmarines 2 super BB's are sitting on their drydocks. So the RN is operating with impunity in the North Sea as scouts. Belgium/Holland are neutral so you be sure Britain has spotters phoning into RAF Fighter Command in that scenario.

If flying over Benelux causes them to join in, now the Allies/Benelux can have a united front against Germany. So its WW1 all over again except the "central powers" are just Germany and Austria. Maybe Hungary I suppose, they were pretty buddy buddy by 1938. No way in hell Mussolini joins in. And no Czech tanks. Good luck winning that one.