WTC7 - The fires failed Girder 44-79

4 to 5 drawings?!?!? Are you being stupid on purpose?

In the Emery/Roth set, there are 41 drawings that I can look at which I downloaded.

Drawings S-1 through S-7 cover the framing plans for floors 1 through 7. Drawing S-8 covers floors 8 through 20 and 24 through 45. Drawing S-9 covers floors 21 through 23. Drawing S-10, 19, and 20 show changes/additions (plates welded to the bottom of beams). Drawings S-12 is for floor 46. Drawing S-13 is for floor 47. Then there are framing plans for the roof. There are also other drawings in that set.

Did you even look at them???

I just called out 14 drawings dealing with the floor framing! Where did you get "4 or 5"???

:boggled:

Thanks. That is a clear listing, easy to understand.

gerrycan, is there anything wrong with what Gamolon listed there?
Is there anything missing? If yes, please say what, and where it is, and how you know it's missing!

Then please give us a similar rundown of the Skidmore drawings, where to find them, and what is on them!
 
No you didn't. Why are you lying now? You clearly referred to a Skidmore drawing S-8 that was for the 33rd floor.

No, I clearly referred to a title sheet, whos existence you are unsure of. Then again, you have been referring to your 4 or 5 's' drawings that you claim cover all 47 floors. Deary me.
 
Thanks. That is a clear listing, easy to understand.

gerrycan, is there anything wrong with what Gamolon listed there?
Is there anything missing? If yes, please say what, and where it is, and how you know it's missing!

Then please give us a similar rundown of the Skidmore drawings, where to find them, and what is on them!

So it sounds perfectly plausible to you that ONE structural drawing covers around about 35 floors?
 
You seriously believe that 4 or 5 drawings is enough for 47 floors, thats beyond silly.

You seriously believe the floor framing would change that much over the floors of a standard high rise to require separate drawings. Now that is silly
 
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So it sounds perfectly plausible to you that ONE structural drawing covers around about 35 floors?

That doesn't answer the question.

Gamolon did show a drawing, and the header said it is TYPICAL for a number of floors. I am going to go with the assumption that yes, that S-8 drawing is indeed TYPICAL for that many floor, because that's what the engineer of record tells me.

What we need now is your evidence that the floors of interest deviate significantly from that TYPICAL layout, so that you can say you KNOW Nist is WRONG.
 
AGAIN, for the record, I am saying that NIST have made some serious mistakes in their analysis. Why would you object to someone exposing this?
Where did I say CD brought down the building?
I understand that you dont wish to discuss the serious omitions and mistakes in NISTs analysis, but try to be a little more creative in your avoidance tactics, and dont put words in my mouth, please.
Said the person who refuses to say whether he believes it was CD.

Would you agree that a 47-story modern steel tower covering a city block is extremely unlikely to have a final collapse, totally and at high speed, simply because of the prevailing heat created by migrating office cubicle fires?
I would not agree that the WTC 7 collapse was unlikely. I think it was very likely, no matter how many qualifiers you try to add. Also, one person's opinion of something's likelihood does not determine whether something actually happened. You've dressed up incredulity in new clothes.

"Scientists have calculated that the chance of anything so patently absurd actually existing are millions to one. But magicians have calculated that million-to-one chances crop up nine times out of ten." - Discworld: Mort

Particularly, with a visual outline previously identifiable only with steel towers felled by controlled demolition?
No matter how many words you're using, you're saying "it looked like a CD to me". I doubt you'll be able to provide examples of these "towers", since no building over 30 stories has been CDed. And I'll bet none of them will be on fire.

Do you honestly believe that in light of the NIST's final 9/11 Report on WTC7, that a demolition company could, using the NIST WTC7 Report specifications, have induced a similar full, high speed building collapse?
Not with a building on fire on multiple floors, not having to plant explosives and wiring in secret in a heavily trafficked building in the middle of Manhattan, not using an experimental method of demolition. In other words, it might be possible, but not in the context of what we know about 9/11.

And they could make those office cubicle fires dance so well that the core failure would be so well timed and balanced as to prevent significant toppling?

MM
No.

Are you arguing that the bad guys somehow directed the fire? Since when was this something controlled demo companies do in high rises, ever?

How did they make sure WTC 1 hit 7 and gave them an excuse, without damaging any of the explosives or wiring?

So it sounds perfectly plausible to you that ONE structural drawing covers around about 35 floors?

That's not a statement. That's a loaded question, which only implies something so you can backpedal later.
 
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That doesn't answer the question.

Gamolon did show a drawing, and the header said it is TYPICAL for a number of floors. I am going to go with the assumption that yes, that S-8 drawing is indeed TYPICAL for that many floor, because that's what the engineer of record tells me.

What we need now is your evidence that the floors of interest deviate significantly from that TYPICAL layout, so that you can say you KNOW Nist is WRONG.

The fact that the same Floor Framing plan was used for 30+ floors in a high rise building is not a surprise at all. The floor loading is going to be the same on all of them, and the column grid is not changing on the way up. Any minor variations could be handled by details and notes. You have to consider that these drawings were done prior to computer drafting. The old adage way back then was that 1 drawing sheet took 1 person 1 week to complete, i.e 40 man hours. By using a 'typical' sheet for 30+ floors, you would be saving 1200 hours, over 6 months of work for one person. That in itself is huge.
 
So it sounds perfectly plausible to you that ONE structural drawing covers around about 35 floors?

Well John Salvarinas, the guy you have referenced to support your case in other forums seems to think so.

Here is a paragraph from page 11-1 of his paper he authored for the Canadian Structural Engineering Conference in 1986:
Salv11_1.png


Here is his a drawing he presented (with wrong callouts I might add) on page 11-18 of the same paper. Notcie it says "Figure 5 - Typical Floor Framing". Interesting huh? Why didn't present all you individual floor framing drawings you claim exist?:
Salv11_18.png


Face it gerrycan. You've been owned by your own lack of knowledge regarding construction drawings in conjunction with an over-developed want for there to be something incredibly sinister driving the events of that day.
 
No, I clearly referred to a title sheet, whos existence you are unsure of. Then again, you have been referring to your 4 or 5 's' drawings that you claim cover all 47 floors. Deary me.

Right.

You made up the existence of a supposed title sheet referring to an S-8 drawing being for floor 33. You keep making crap up to support your arguments. It makes you look silly.

You got caught with your pants down.

:D
 
No, I clearly referred to a title sheet, whos existence you are unsure of. Then again, you have been referring to your 4 or 5 's' drawings that you claim cover all 47 floors. Deary me.
Gerry:

Suppose I'm building this building. You got the 33 floor as structural drawing 8. Can you tell me what was the number sequence for the previous 32 floors? I read these all the time, I'm the builder on the phone to you, the designer. This should be a no brainer for you.
 
So it sounds perfectly plausible to you that ONE structural drawing covers around about 35 floors?

This just keeps getting better and better gerrycan. Here is a quote from you on the David Icke forums in response to my asking you about the Salvarinas paper you referenced in that thread to prove your point about there being shear studs on all the floors.

gerrycan said:
yes, in the pdf (11-18) the typical floor framing diagram, 30 studs are shown specifically on the girder spanning 79 and 44.

And now you're arguing that the floor framing is NOT typical!!!??? So you change your tune when you get your butt handed to you in a debate?

Pathetic...

;)
 
gerrycan,

What about your claim that Salvarinas was the design engineer for WTC7? He was the project manager.

What about your claim that Salvarinas' paper was written POST construction? The paper was written during the construction.

There's two points right there that you made up in order to support your claims. You wanted people to think he was the top dog in the designing of WTC7 by incorrectly naming him THE design engineer.

Then you try and make his paper seem like it was written AFTER construction so it would seemingly contain all the latest structural changes INCLUDING the "typical shear studs".

Nice work.

I hope you feel good about yourself for misleading those who have bought into your garbage.
 
Where did I say CD brought down the building?

gerrycan. You make this SO easy...

gerrycan said:
I suspect that the buildings were brought down in a controlled fashion yes...

Above was you reply at the David Icke forums when asked if you would confirm you that you suspect CD.

I suspect gerrycan will not reply anymore due to the butt-whoopin' received here recently.

Maybe he should change his forum name to gerryCAN'T...

:D
 
You made up the existence of a supposed title sheet referring to an S-8 drawing being for floor 33. You keep making crap up to support your arguments. It makes you look silly.

You got caught with your pants down.
That's the reason why no-claimers don't make claims: because they are full of smoke, and innuendo works better for them. When they make concrete claims, their smoke vanishes and their nakedness shows.
 
Question...does anyone know gerrycan background? I'm sure it's not structural engineer or architect.

He arrived at JREF 2 years ago to challenge Mackey and others to participate in an online debage with Richard Gage. Back then, he was writing in "txt" style with words like "u" and "ur" and no capitalization or apostrophes. If he's gone to engineering school since then, it doesn't show.
 
"Would you agree that a 47-story modern steel tower covering a city block is extremely unlikely to have a final collapse, totally and at high speed, simply because of the prevailing heat created by migrating office cubicle fires?"
"I would not agree that the WTC 7 collapse was unlikely. I think it was very likely, no matter how many qualifiers you try to add. Also, one person's opinion of something's likelihood does not determine whether something actually happened. You've dressed up incredulity in new clothes.

"Scientists have calculated that the chance of anything so patently absurd actually existing are millions to one. But magicians have calculated that million-to-one chances crop up nine times out of ten." - Discworld: Mort
"

So are you saying that even with odds against it of a million-to-one, you would accept the credibility of the NIST 'prevailing heat from migrating office cubicle fires' hypothesis?

"Particularly, with a visual outline previously identifiable only with steel towers felled by controlled demolition?"
"No matter how many words you're using, you're saying "it looked like a CD to me". I doubt you'll be able to provide examples of these "towers", since no building over 30 stories has been CDed. And I'll bet none of them will be on fire."

Well I didn't think you had to be a detective to see that?

You state that no buildings over 30 stories have ever been felled by controlled demolition [commercially].

Since these buildings tend to exist in high density commercial areas, there are obvious reasons for using other demolition methods.

Probably the biggest single reason, other than the debris cloud, is that it is hard to get buildings to drop straight down.

The NIST hypothesis requires very smart fires and a secret fuel stash.

Fires that amazingly performed a complete high speed building demolition.

And did so, accidentally no less, on a building 56% taller than those in the published engineering record.

AND, produced a total collapse with a visual outline previously identifiable only with those steel towers felled by controlled demolition.

"Do you honestly believe that in light of the NIST's final 9/11 Report on WTC7, that a demolition company could, using the NIST WTC7 Report specifications, have induced a similar full, high speed building collapse?"
"Not with a building on fire on multiple floors, not having to plant explosives and wiring in secret in a heavily trafficked building in the middle of Manhattan, not using an experimental method of demolition. In other words, it might be possible, but not in the context of what we know about 9/11."

You appear to be confused so I'll re-phrase that question.

Do you believe that demolition engineers could do what the NIST argues was possible with the prevailing heat from migrating office cubicle fires?

Induce a column failure comparable to what the NIST claims to have happened to the undamaged column 79.

"And they could make those office cubicle fires dance so well that the core failure would be so well timed and balanced as to prevent significant toppling?"
"No.

Are you arguing that the bad guys somehow directed the fire? Since when was this something controlled demo companies do in high rises, ever?

How did they make sure WTC 1 hit 7 and gave them an excuse, without damaging any of the explosives or wiring?
"

No.

What I am saying is that building demolition companies would have to be magicians in order to get the necessary abeyance of reality to create high speed total steel building collapses by fire.

MM
 
So are you saying that even with odds against it of a million-to-one, you would accept the credibility of the NIST 'prevailing heat from migrating office cubicle fires' hypothesis?
Where do you get the million-to-one figure from? Have there been a million unfought fires in high rise steel buildings?


Since these buildings tend to exist in high density commercial areas, there are obvious reasons for using other demolition methods.

Probably the biggest single reason, other than the debris cloud, is that it is hard to get buildings to drop straight down.
Where do you get that idea from? Probably the biggest single reason is that it's hard to bring them down without damaging adjacent properties, something that didn't happen on 9/11 (the Filterman Hall building had to be demolished because of WTC7's fall, and the Verizon building needed repairs for about 1.4 Billion dollars).

1) What was controlled about that?

2) Why would the perps care?


Do you believe that demolition engineers could do what the NIST argues was possible with the prevailing heat from migrating office cubicle fires?

Induce a column failure comparable to what the NIST claims to have happened to the undamaged column 79.
If you mean by means other than fires. NIST gives you the answer: demolition engineers could have done it using an explosive that would have been heard with a 130-140 dB boom, from half a mile away, if other buildings weren't in the middle.
 

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